Modern vs Mechanical Controls

[rinso]

I still think it is madness to put electronics such as control boards and touch controls, in an appliance that exposes them to heat and moisture. Ranges, Dishwashers, Microwave Ovens, Washers and Dryers will usually suffer electronics failures before any of their other mechanical parts break. Bring back the mechanical timer knobs, bring back mechanical switches for options, bring back rotary mechanical controls for ranges. Example: On a dishwasher with a mechanical timer, you could load clean dishes and set the knob for the dry cycle. Voila! A very handy plate warmer. Try and find that on one of the new machines with "gee-whiz" touch pads. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[qsd-dan]

Agreed but the last generation of mechanical timers were cheaply made and didn't hold up that well.

 

[ea56]

Oh if only they would do this Eugene! I couldn’t agree with you more. However as long as the younger crowd thinks analog controls are old fashioned I doubt this will happen. Now if they were to somehow discover analog controls as something new then they’d all want them.

Also appliance manufactures like the electronic controls because they crap out and are most likely one of the major reasons owners buy new appliances, because the cost to repair/replace these electronic controls is almost as much as a new appliance costs. So why spend hundreds of dollars to replace the mother board and then later on have something else fail on the appliance.

Its akin to the planned obsolescence of of American cars in the 50’s and 60’s. Come out with a completely new design every year and people will buy a new car every other year. Makes them more money than a new transmission makes them.

Just because the last generation of mechanical timers were poorly built doesn’t mean that they couldn’t be built better like they once were. If they could build reliable analog controls 50+ years ago, they can do it again.

Eddie

 

[ozzie908]

Just a shame

That none of the old reliable manufacturers are no longer in existing so no one to try new/old ways of doing things its never like to make a come back either as too many millennials don't have a clue how to cook let alone launder.So will no doubt just keep buying cheap Chinese made machines that hardly do a good job. Just my opinion YMMV

 

[mattl]

I don't agree.  I have a TOL Kenmore washer and dryer set from the mid 90s, all electronic controls 27 years later still totally functional.  There is nothing intrinsically wrong with electronic controls and they will function for decades with zero issues. Cars are filled with electronics that are subjected to 10x worse conditions than appliances are and are fully functional year after year. Problems do arise when manufacturers cheap out on design or component quality, I will concede that point.

 

[combo52]

Electronic vs Mechanical Controls On Appliances

Reply #4,

 

Hi Matt you are right on the money, properly built electronic controls are far more durable than mechanical controls could ever be and at far less cost to build and smaller size as well.

 

Your comparison to automobiles is a good one, every US car sold from the mid 80s on has a computer controlling the engine and more and yet 30+ years later you seldom see a failure in these controls even though cars are in extreme heat and humidity.

 

John L.

 

[launderess]

There is nothing evil or adherently bad with digital controls for laundry appliances, dishwashers, and other white goods. This even those that are made in Asia or elsewhere overseas.

People either swore by or at GE dishwashers, but "computer for a brain" caught on then and now with consumers.

Digital controls such as motherboards and what not are no different than any other part of an appliance. If garbage goes in, that is what will come out. Asian and other places build things to specs that customer (appliance makers') specs, designs and requirements.

 

[bradfordwhite]

My parents put in the GE 2800 in their new 1985 home and in 1999 when I went to upgrade to a 1995 KA Superba.... the GE was a bit messy because the console was not easy to clean, some of the racks had rust spots, and the wash arm would squeak on and off when washing but the motor still ran, and the computer still worked fine.

I like the electronic controls because a computer can do things that an analog timer/controller can't.

I like the electronic controller on my Air conditioner because:
1. I can set a timer
2. it has a gradual ramp up for the fan motor
3. it has an energy saver feature that will also turn the fan on occasionally just to test the temperature.
4. I have a remote control.
5. a washer dryer with wifi can send notifications to my phone.

Now days there are appliances connected with WIFI and can be controlled remotely. Something an analog timer can't do.

 

[qsd-dan]

"I have a TOL Kenmore washer and dryer set from the mid 90s, all electronic controls 27 years later still totally functional."

There are also members here who owned this set and had nothing but problem with them.

Electronic controls CAN be built to last, but they aren't, especially in this day and age.

 

[Chetlaham]

Electronics In Appliances

Like the pushbutton and rapid advance timer system in Kitchen-Aids and other TOL machines are unnecessary; merely coming across as offering solutions to problems which do not exist.

 

[Chetlaham]

Computers In Cars

Are wonderful until you consider cases where the controls have gotten stuck in acceleration with the brakes, off ignition and PRNDL stick locked out with no way to kill the power to the engine. Lucky individuals able on a high way have been able to dial 911 for police to either do put maneuvers or to let the car run out of gas.

Electronics are wonderful at playing out what humans have not considered or thought unlikely.

 

[gizmo]

Fisher & Paykel Gentle Annie

I own a Fisher and Paykel Gentle Annie washer from about 1990. It has had no electronic faults ever. It still functions perfectly. It is in almost daily use by friends of mine.

 

There is nothing wrong with electronic controls, in fact they make possible features, efficiencies that just can't be done with mechanical controls. F&P machines are great at self-preservation, by monitoring the load they can adjust their own cycle to allow for overloading, out of balance and so on.

 

Unreliable electronic controls aren't an indicator of an inherent fault in electronic controls, they are an indicator of poor engineering or penny-pinching.  There are some bloody unreliable mechanical timers out there, too.

 

[combo52]

Reply # 10

Is total BS, that never could happen, there is nothing stopping a driver just putting there foot on the brake, engaging the parking brake, shutting off the ignition Etc Etc.

 

Yes I have heard of people panicking when something goes wrong but it has nothing to do with electronic controls on the car.

 

I would rather be in a new car any day when things go wrong than an old death trap any day, when I think about the 56 Ford we had as kids, my Moms 64 Dodge Dart, or the 64 VW  its a miracle we ever made it to adult hood.

 

John L.

 

[ea56]

Mechanical Controls Saved My Life 22 Years Ago

I had just bought a new 2000 Honda Civic Coupe and was on my way to work the next day heading north on hwy 101. I took the hwy 12 off ramp which went up and around to hwy 12. As I approached the wide curve in the off ramp at about 55 mph and applied the brakes the car continued to accelerate and I couldn’t slow it down. Being a long time driver I had the presence of mind to immediately put the transmission in neutral and by literally standing on the brake I was able to pull off the highway and stop the car as the engine continued to roar.

The floor mat had gotten caught over the accelerator and caused it to stay down when I removed my foot from it. Had I been in a newer car with all electronic controls and not been able to put the transmission into neutral I wouldn’t be here today typing this. There was very heavy traffic on hwy12 during the commute hour and without being able to slow down the car to merge and then stop the car on the shoulder there would most certainly have been a very bad accident.

To each his own. But after all the stories that I hear on a regular basis about Tesla’s going out of control I’ll keep my 15 year old Honda Civic with the old fashioned, reliable mechanical controls. I’ve driven one of the newer Civic’s, a 2019 with the all electronic controls as a loaner and I didn’t like it at all.

Eddie

 

[combo52]

Reply 13

Hi Eddie, you should’ve also switch the ignition off with the engine was roaring when you had that mishap.

That same type of an event in a car with electronic controls would have made no difference you can still switch it off you can still turn the thing into neutral you can still put your foot on the brake you could apply the parking brake on.

Self driving cars cannot cause an accident if you’re paying attention the only Accidents that have occurred with them as when people were using at the self driving mode and not paying attention.

You still have full control of the car.

John

 

[ea56]

John,

My first thought was to not add insult to injury and maybe lock the steering wheel by turning the ignition key too far in my panicked state. As soon as I got the car pulled off the highway off course I turned off the ignition. I had a split second to react and I believe that I did the correct thing.

By putting the transmission in neutral I interpreted the power from reaching the wheels thereby allowing me to stop the car with the brakes. Even though the engine that was still running and roaring it was no longer driving the wheels. As soon as I got the car stopped, of course I turned off the ignition.

In one of the newer electronic push button start cars will you be able to turn the ignition off if there is a failure in the onboard computer? Maybe, maybe not?

You may dispute my emergency response actions, but bottom line I got the car under control. If you like electronic controls on your car more power too you, its still a free country, but for how much longer is anybodies guess.

Eddie[this post was last edited: 6/29/2022-11:54]

 

[circlew]

I agree with Eddie, as turning off the ignition switch could have locked the steering, and would have disabled the power brakes, making it harder to stop the car.

 

[ea56]

Power Windows

I feel the same way about power windows too. I used to think they were the last word back when they were an expensive option. Just couldn’t wait to be able to afford to own a car with power windows. Now they ALL have them, with no option for manual, roll up windows.

Well think about what would happen if you accidentally go into deep water in an accident. As soon as the water reaches the battery you will lose all power to those nifty windows that have now turned your car into a death trap. If you can kick out the windshield or rear window you may be able to escape or if you have one of those special window breaking tools you can break your way out, if not start saying your prayers.

About 4-5 years ago in one week here in Sonoma County there were two incidents, two days apart where mothers were driving their children to school in the morning and their cars went into high water, one into the Russian River and one into a deep creek in Petaluma. In each case the two little girls in each of those cars drowned, the mother in one of the cars escaped, the the mom in the other drowned with her daughters.

There are both good and bad things about modern technology and conveniences. Its up to the individual consumer/buyer to weigh the risks vs convenience.

I’m far from being a luddite but I am sensible.

Eddie

.

 

[kb0nes]

Remember that an automobiles brakes are VASTLY more powerful than its engine is. Even with the throttle full wide open and the car going at speed the brakes will stop the car reasonably quickly.

This was proved in tests in the late 80's when the Audi 5000's were wrongly accused of sudden acceleration incidents. Tests were done on the cars at speed with the throttle WFO and the brakes easily stopped the cars. As a memory refresher, the Audi 5000 "problem" was due to pedal misapplication. The throttle linkages in some of the cars were broken by the driver stepping on them with great pressure thinking they were on the brakes...

 

[kb0nes]

As for electronics in appliances I consider it utter madness to even consider a mechanical control today.

Properly made electronics are easily more reliable than a mechanical control and they also offer a world of flexibility and control that mechanical controls could never duplicate.

Judging the durability of modern mechanical controls based on how long the timers of the 60's lasted is folly too. The modern parts are quite unlikely to have those long service lives as cost concerns will have changed how those parts are made.

I'd never consider purchasing any modern appliance with crude mechanical controls.

 

[ea56]

Phil,

“Remember that an automobiles brakes are VASTLY more powerful than its engine is. Even with the throttle full wide open and the car going at speed the brakes will stop the car reasonably quickly.”

I was heading into a curve that advised 35 mph at over 55 mph and still picking up speed, and I was pushing the brake as hard as I could and the car WAS NOT slowing down. I had no time to put the brakes to the test. Its a wonder the brake pads didn't fuse to the wheels. Only when I put the car into neutral was I able to stop the damn thing. When I finally got stopped and pulled over to the shoulder the brakes smelled like they were on fire.

You can all second guess my actions as much as you want. But I prevented an accident and maybe my death and the deaths of others by remaining cool and acting quickly.

If this ever happens to you, be my guest and see if you can stop the car with the engine racing by just applying the brakes. I wish you the best of luck in your experiment.

Eddie

 

[Chetlaham]

Reply #12

Not when the brake, ignition, gas, EM brake and PRNDL are feeding into a computers instead of directly connected to brake cable, hydraulic fluid, distributor electrical, carburetor, ect.

http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/autos.html

There are documented cases, some that have been on the news or talk shows where vehicles have not only accelerated when the brake were depressed but the driver could not shut off the engine, put the car in neutral, apply the EM brake or anything else.

This is in part because in some cars these items are boolean interlocked to prevent a user from say shifting the car in park while the gas is depressed. The concept works, until something else goes wrong.

While not the best case for discussion, here is but one example:

https://www.drive.com.au/news/kia-sorento-out-of-control-in-us-takes-woman-on-wild-ride/

It is not that the brakes were burnt out, the gearbox failed, ect. Its that some certain failure modes involving acceleration result in any means to shut off the vehicle being locked out.

The thing is these cases are often swept underneath the rug, do not receive a fine tooth comb, or simply brushed as the driver having done something wrong. The auto industry is hush-hush about it and for good reason.

(Yes I know that some modern makes of cars are not interlocked per say and you can set the car into park mode going 125MPH...)

 

[bradfordwhite]

It's not like analog timers are fail safe. I've seen several over the years.

Look at the self advance timer issue in the recently acquired 906s in the Imperial forum.

Some electronic timers have a built in fuse that can be replaced. That's something not found on analog timers.

 

[Chetlaham]

@eddie: I believe you, I have not doubt in my mind, and let me be the one to say that I'm sorry that happened to you. You did your absolute best with the cards you were dealt with. You reacted better than I would have reacted, I simply would have shut down in panic.

In regards to judging Edie: Everyone says you should have done X vs Y, says it can't/won't/shouldn't happen, says A or B will always be the saving force. Except until it happens to you personally. While I've never been in a car where the brakes failed (knocking on wood LOL) I have had other stuff happen to me where I've been humbled and have become less tempted to question others after they've been through something.

Regarding Audi, sure brakes their brakes were tested under controlled lab conditions to make themselves look less guilty, but out in the real world where scientific controls are not present different outcomes are inevitable.

 

[Chetlaham]

Fail Safe Timers

All appliances should take timer or timer motor failure into consideration. (just as you would with an electronic control that can have say a relay contact welding closed)

This is done through thermostats, thermal fuses, over current fuses, float switches, pressure switches, position limit switches, displacement switches, impedance protection, inherent protection, continuous duty ratings, ect, ect.

Timer vs electronic does not change that, although sadly there are plenty of appliances that lack realistic fail safes, ie GE dishwashers where the the timer can stop with the drain solenoid or heater running indefinitely, ovens without thermal fuses relying on a single relay on the EM board, ect.

Most unnecessary timer failures stem from the same reason we find electronics in appliances today: lots of complex cycle modifiers and/or cycle initiation done through one touch push buttons.

Everything A KDS-18 or Maytag A906 does can be replicated with a single dial rotated via a single timer motor.

 

[maytag85]

Reply #20

One thing they should do is put built in floor mats on vehicles so there won’t be any worries about the floor mat getting stuck under the accelerator/gas pedal. GM and a few other automakers in the 50’s and 60’s put built in floor mats in their vehicles which was a great idea. I’ll admit cars have improved in many areas but have gone back in a few since there are more blind spots with smaller windows and thicker c and b pillars, floor mats that can easily get stuck under the pedals, little to no foot or leg room and even head room in the back seat, and the worst contenders of all is lack of space in the engine bay combined with making certain access to critical engine parts a afterthought since in some cases you have to remove the ENTIRE engine or ENTIRE front end apart just to get access to a certain parts.

 

[ea56]

Electronic Appliance Controls

My dislike of electronic appliance controls stem from my experience with a 2000 Maytag slide in ceramic top electric stove that had electronic controls directly over the top of the oven. A little over a year after I got this stove after I’d recently run a Self Cleaning cycle and two days later was making waffles and tried to turn to oven on at 225F to keep them warm while I finished making all of the waffles. The controls flashed I believe an F3 code (or F something, and the F also stood for what I was thinking at the time). Anyway the oven was kaput and I was told by the Maytag dealer that I bought the stove from, which was BTW just a few months out of its 1 year warranty that it was going to cost $400+ to repair it. I’d only paid about $600 for it and I couldn’t justify spending that much on a stove out of warranty that could very well have something else go wrong with it.

Needless to say I didn’t buy another Maytag stove. When I went out looking for a new stove I was told by more than one person that it was probably the SC cycle that fried the electronic control board, so I opted to not buy another stove with a SC oven.

Last January I bought a new 30” GE electric stove with a ceramic top and a SC oven. The electronic controls are on the back control panel and I hope that this location will make the control board less vulnerable to damage from the heat generated by the SC cycle.

That being said I do like this stove very much and I like the electronic oven controls too. But given the choice I would still prefer my appliances to have analog rather than electronic controls, but I also realize that this unlikely to occur in this lifetime.

Also, I should mention that in 1983 I moved into a rental duplex that had a 1939 Westinghouse 40” electric stove equipped with a delayed start timer for the oven and the original owners manual which I still have. I frequently used that delayed start oven timer and it still worked like a charm on a stove that was 44 years old, so if they could build quality electric oven timers in 1939 that still worked 44 years later seems like it could still be done today. But they would also cost a Kings Ransom too, with the cost you have to pay for quality these days.

Eddie

 

[henene4]

It's not the electronics, it"s the price

You can buy a SC cooker set today for what, 600$? 800$?

That would be less than 100$ in 1970, less than 200$ in 1980 and less than 400$ in 2000.

I don't think you'll find much of ANY product from that price range around today.

A cheap washer today can be had for 400$ or less, and even TOL washers from common brands today can be had for 1000$ or so.
That's like 240$/600$ in 2000, 120$/290$ in 1980 and 55$/135$ in 1970.

Inflation is a b**** - especially in that regard.

Reason I chose those years is that 1970 is about the time a SC oven was more common place, after 1980 was the time electronic controls became common place and 2000 was the last year "good" appliances were common place for most apparently.

You just couldn't get any even remotely comparable appliance in 1970 for the "same" value, barely anything in 1980 and just about something in 2000.

If you are willing to spend 2k$ or more today, you could probably get something that lasts just about as long as a TOL appliance from back in 1970 - simply because adjusted for inflation, you would be spending just about the same.

I don't know how much a GE P7 oven was back then, but a TOL washer was about 300$ or so - which is +/- 2300$ today.
You can buy like 2 TOL or 4 BOL machines for that.
Or one professional machine.

I spent 2k€ on an oven and I do believe that could last 20 years.

 

[iej]

Electronic controls are enormously superior to mechanical. They are reliable if they’re well made and use good quality components and they’re flexible and can use a degree of intelligence in control of the appliance.

There no reason electronic controls are unreliable. They should be much more reliable. Look at a system like Miele’s Novotronic controls - absolutely rock solid for decades at this stage.

Cheap appliances with poor quality components simply aren’t ever going be as good as high quality machines. Electronic or mechanical controls won’t make any difference in that equation.

 

[mattl]

To put a finer point on the cost/value discussion.  I think my folks paid about $700 for the 40" Frigidaire Custom Imperial in 1959. Using an inflation calculator that translates to a little over $7000 today. $7000 ranges are few and far between today. At that price point there would be no need to skimp on any component. But we don't buy $7K ranges today, over $1K and folks balk.

 

The Frigidaire is still around and mostly functional, the clock quit a few years ago, but most everything else works.  The heat minder was removed in the early 60's since it never worked. I cannibalized a CI in the scrap pile and have backups to almost all  the components. Someday I'll swap out the clock and see if the heat minder can be replaced back to original.