Modern vs Mechanical Controls

[volsboy1]

I have to agree with John/Combo52 . Properly done the Electronic ones will outlast the mechanical ones.

I think it mostly has to do with the Nostalgic and the end of a Era which I understand.

My G.E. Harmony washer died last week, the tub bearings went out but the all computer control never had one problem....

 

[DADoES]

 
The parents' 1976 Whirlpool washer had a timer failure, low-speed motor wouldn't run.  Timer replaced, the updated version had a one-stage cool down on Perm Press instead of two-stage.  I don't recall the age of it at the time.

The timer on their 1994 KitchenAid washer failed at 18 years, shaft broke loose from the cams, only way to turn it was by grasping the dial skirt behind the shield.  I had a refurbed Kenmore 90 on-hand so the KA was not repaired.

 

[iej]

I remember a comment that buying an early automatic washing machine in Britain in the 1950s was as expensive as buying a small car. They were seriously high spec piece of equipment in the old days and you can be assured that the components were not cheap.

 

Many of them had more in common with good quality automotive parts than modern appliances, and certainly with the kind of quality you'd probably really only see in serious commercial laundry machines these days.

 

Electronic controls are genuinely a huge leap forward and are cheap and generally reliable. It's very easy to forget how many cheap late 70s, 80s and 90s machines made their way to the dump because of failed electromechanical programmers. We tend to only remember the early machines, much more than those that followed.

 

It also wasn't that unusual for washing machine and dishwasher timers to stick, jam or fail in other ways and I certainly remember in my own younger years washing machines where the timer had been forced backwards, usually by a kid playing with it and deciding to turn the controls anticlockwise - a rather expensive repair!

 

The other aspect of the move towards electronics has been solid state switching and the ability to slice, dice and create AC wave forms to drive induction motors smoothly at variable speeds and in either direction, without cumbersome and complex mechanical or clunky electrical components that were prone to breaking, failing, squeaking or generally just being noisy (brushes) and so on. It's also allowed motors to become smaller, zero maintenance and generally very efficient.

 

[maytag85]

Electronic controls can be reliable, BUT don’t like sitting for long periods of time. Some of you guys have probably seen the thread of my Maytag A606 and DG606 back in 2019 but spent many hours trying to get the electronic dry control to work, even tried soldering the wires directly to the control board (yes, my soldering skills weren’t the best), that didn’t work either and basically tried everything to get it to work but to no avail. Ever since I put a timer in, I haven’t had ANY issues in the 3 years I’ve been using on and off. I don’t know how long my Maytag A606 set sat but it must have been at least 20 or more years since timer was quite stiff, the electronic dry control certainly didn’t like sitting for that long and if it were a 306 or even 406/407, I wouldn’t have had to do that much to it to get it operational again.

 

[iej]

There's no particular reason why electronic controls would have any issue sitting for a long time. They have no, or at least extremely few, moving parts.

 

It sounds like there was some kind of fault with the board or the conductivity sensor.

 

[ea56]

Re: Reply#18

Please take a look at these attached links.

According to this link I instinctively acted in the exact correct manner by putting my car into neutral when the accelerator stuck. This article explains in detail just why it is important to put the car into neutral when the accelerator is stuck. They also point out that trying to stop a runaway vehicle with the brakes while still in gear is next to impossible and that the brakes can overheat and then not function at all.

I don’t mean to belabor this this issue, but anyone that may ever has to face this problem while driving should know that you have a split second to react, and how you react could mean life or death.

Dealing with a stuck accelerator

A jammed gas pedal could make your car accelerate to full speed in a matter of moments. Under such circumstances, it is unlikely that normal braking will have much effect, as the brakes will be competing against the engine. Use the steps outlined here to bring your vehicle back under control when unintended acceleration strikes.

1

Stay calm.
Every decision you make between now and the moment you stop your vehicle must be thought through – your life depends on it.
2

Shift the car into neutral.
Remember that you must use the clutch to do this in a manual transmission vehicle. This step is vitally important; find out why in the next section.
3

Push both feet firmly down on the brake pedal and hold them there.
In most runaway car situations, the brakes do not work because the driver cannot press down on them hard enough.
4

Hold the brake steady and scan the road ahead for an escape route,
such as a hard shoulder. Do not change lanes quickly as this could cause you to lose control of the car when traveling at high speed.
5

If you cannot shift into neutral, you should shut off the engine to initiate the vehicle slowing. Do not take the key out of the ignition.
These are general guidelines that are intended to work with most vehicles, in most situations. You should also check your vehicle operator’s manual for more specific information relating to stuck accelerators and emergency stops.

Shifting into neutral

Whatever the vehicle or situation, shifting to neutral is a vital part of bringing a runaway vehicle to a stop. Drivers of automatic cars often forget that their vehicle can be switched into neutral and overlook this important step. Shifting the engine to neutral will make it easier to slow the vehicle, by taking power away from the engine. If you leave the car in “drive”, you will be attempting to brake against the full force of the engine. This is a battle you are unlikely to win before the brakes overheat.

Shutting off the engine

There is a great deal of debate over whether the engine should immediately be shut off in the event of a jammed gas pedal, or whether it should be left on until the car has safely stopped. No unified expert answer exists for this conundrum, as there are pros and cons to both courses of action. Whether you should switch your engine off or not depends on the vehicle you are driving and the circumstances surrounding the stuck accelerator. Check your driver’s manual for state-specific guidance and your car operator’s manual for vehicle-specific guidance.

Switching off the engine would mean an immediate loss of your power-assisted steering and braking. When the vehicle is hurtling along at speed, you may need power brakes to bring it to a stop even with the engine shut down. Lack of power steering could make it practically impossible to maneuver the car when traveling at speed. There is also the danger that turning the key in the ignition could activate the steering lock, which would be disastrous.

The opposing argument states that shutting the engine off may be the most effective way to cut power. It could be essential if you cannot shift the car into neutral. Plus, shifting the vehicle into neutral will cause older car engines to over-rev, resulting in permanent damage. Newer cars are built with rev limiters, so this should not be a problem. At any rate, your life is worth far more to you than a car engine.

BTW, putting the car in neutral is also the correct answer to this question a the DMV test.

Eddie

https://www.epermittest.com/drivers-education/stuck-accelerator[this post was last edited: 6/30/2022-11:55]

https://www.dmv-written-test.com/qu...or-sticks-while-you-are-driving_zP7wQqP6.html

 

[iej]

In a situation like that you only cut the engine when you're stopped, unless it's on fire! You need the servo assisted brakes and possibly power steering.

 

Manual car: Hold down clutch and don't let it up, brake, get into neutral and continue to brake until you're in control and in a safe spot. When parked, hand brake / parking brake and switch off.

 

Automatic: brake, get into neutral, continue to brake until you are in control and in a safe spot and stop, hold foot brake, then switch off the engine and only then apply park. Don't skip through drive or reverse if the accelerator / gas pedal is stuck while the engine is revving.

 

Electric / hybrid: Brake and it should recognise you're sending conflicting pedal inputs and slow, usually giving you a warning that you're pressing the accelerator and brake simultaneously. Continue to break, go into neutral and drift to a safe place, hold foot brake, power down and park and apply parking brake.

 

[Chetlaham]

Not Belaboring- This needs to be discussed.

Food for thought:



Neither the shifter, brakes or ignition worked according to the 911 call. Car flipped over 5 times, so I doubt it was an intentional stunt.

The thing is, even if the PRNDL is not interlocked, in some cars it can take an extreme amount of physical effort to shift a transmission into neutral while going at very high speeds.

I am truly of the firm belief that all cars should be equipped with emergency kill switches- one that cuts the fuel to the engine and another that breaks hard copper wire cutting off power to all engine components as a last ditch resort.

Consider that emergency engine generators, even those that power life safety, fire pumps and life support equipment are required by code to have a hard wired E-stop button in the event of crisis.

 

[iej]

That’s a horrendous incident, but it genuinely does seem rather bizarre. There isn’t anything unusually automated in that car and it seems to be a highly unusual combination of simultaneous failures. It would be interesting to see what the manufacturer and the federal safety agencies make of it.

There’s a lot of additional automation and crash protect in modern cars, and they’re extremely regulated and evolving all the time. As automation increases, which it inevitably will, there should be an obvious way to disable it and take control, but in the crash it doesn’t look like the car had acting particularly unusual in terms of systems. It seems to be a freak incident that’s still unexplained.

In general though, stopping the engine at high speed is a very bad idea as you lose the servo assisted brakes and power steering, which can make a car rather hard to control.

 

[Chetlaham]

Sadly, I don't think we'll know much. Manufacturers when sued typically settle out for large amounts of money (to avoid admitting guilt) with a party agreement not to share pertinent details. Government agencies do not have software or computer engineers on staff who specialize in automotive forensics.

I'll agree with you that the above is highly unlikely if not impossible in older cars, but with newer cars (drive by wire) I can certainly imagine it.

FWIW, the above incident is not isolated. There are at least roughly a dozen such cases every year across the country every year. And those are the ones where the driver lives to tell about it.

My honest opinion is that while there are logic fail safes in onboard car computers, there are certain not known at the time of engineering discrete failure mods and programming bugs that make run away acceleration possible. Its like playing a high paying slot machine, not likely you'll ever win on a casual night, but give the lever 1 quadrillion tries and the odds of winning become a given.

The manufacturers don't want to admit such problems exist, bargaining on shortcomings being placed on the user.

 

[combo52]

Post # 37

 

That is totally ridiculous all he would have to have done is step on the brakes, that is a little 4 cylinder car not an Indy race car.

 

There are no cars out there where you can't stop them with the brakes even if you floor it when you are going 60+ miles an hour, don't believe me try it, I have, if you floor the gas petal even at highway speed and stomp on the brake the brake will quickly win out and the car will stop almost as quickly as normal.

 

The kid in post #37 was trying to kill himself. there is simply zero possibility that could ever happen, it would have all over the news if anything had been found wrong with the wrecked car.

 

John L.

 

[maytag85]

Reply #40

The gas pedal got stuck because of the floor mat..

 

[ea56]

John,

Drive around with your right foot to the floor on the gas and your left foot on the brake and you’ll burn your brakes up. Not a wise thing to do in any car and not safe either. Unless you’ve had the accelerator stick on you before you don’t know what its like.

Its unexpected and happens just like that. Its not some planned experiment under controlled conditions. There are other cars around you that you have to immediately take into consideration while you attempt to get your runaway car under control.

I doubt seriously that the young man was out to kill himself. Automobiles have had mechanical/electronic failures since the advent of the automobile and there will continue to be failures. No automobile is perfect. And neither is any human being.

Eddie

 

[mattl]

Not really related but my dad used to do what he called power braking, left foot on brake, right on gas. Think he got in that habit driving cars inside the Buick plant he worked at. I've done it a few times it's an interesting experience.

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Microwave ovens pioneered the use of electronic controls to the point where it’s easier to use with them than without, even making them hem trouble-free…

I have a range with numbered touchpads that was worth a few hundreds more spent than seemingly harder to use controls without which my previous range lacked—and I’m quite used to electronic controls on mine for the oven (the burners are knob-controlled gas) enough that I’d be lost without…

As for a washer and dryer, I will need a lot of convincing that I can operate those with, as my experience was a brother-in-law’s set I found I could instantly adapt to for a few loads of laundry I did there, as opposed to having to use on any multiple in a daily basis here, though there’s the occasional coin-op where machines there can be easily used by a novice right on the first try…

I had a timer knob on my washer just like that become inoperable and it was weeks before the repair person could finally get a new one for our aging top-loader, most-likely off eBay, yet…

So I can’t speak much for reliability as much as preferences as an old microwave would only be replaced for it’s leaking its evil rays, as opposed to anything beyond the appliance’s merely turning on and off to determine running operation in terms of buying on a preferable basis vs. what the modern market expects me to adapt to…

— Dave

 

[iej]

Ease of use is about good design. Some electromechanical programmers had awful designs, complicated numbers, letters, push/pull, weird option buttons and so on. They were fine if you were familiar with their quirks.

A lot of European machines with mechanical programmers often had a vast array of cycles and options - too many to print on the control panel, so you ended up with numbers and letters or symbols on the dial and a table printed, usually on the drawer. Others, especially older ones had pull out tabs with lists of cycles. It wasn’t always intuitive at all. It wasn’t unusual to have 15 or 20 cycles on some machines!

I remember using a washer-dryer that had: a mechanical programmer dial, with at least 15 settings (letters), a dryer timer dial (with drying level options, timed options and cool/hot cycles), a delay start timer dial, a wash temperature dial (cold to 95) and a slider for the spin speed, as well as half load, eco and some other option buttons that I can’t even quite remember. The further up the model ranges you went the more knobs and buttons got added.

Some European machines even had a second rotary display to indicate wash phase / status.

Others were very intuitive and well designed, but that it’s about design, not technology.

It’s the same with electronic controls. They can be well designed or a complete kludge of bad UIs, buttons and weird menu options.

Well designed electronic controls are usually very intuitive and flexible.

One thing I don’t like with current controls is cars with a big touch panel. It’s impossible to find my way through some of those systems without looking away from the road, and they’re often used for basic functions like the radio and air conditioning / heater controls. There was a lot to be said for a button or knob you could find without looking! That’s also an input option with electronics too. There’s no need to always have flashy touch screens.

Also cars that add stuff like text messaging and even Twitter to their infotainment systems. It’s like, what can I do to be as distracting as possible … I know !!! Needs more Pokémon!! A speedometer that also plays Tetris?