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It's ok John. Really it is. There's thousands of threads on this very forum.   There's tons of millennials who agree with you part and parcel. LG and Samsung aren't going away anytime soon. In fact, they are hard at work, locating a factory in China that will incorporate the latest in 6 Sigma production methods for the next generation of appliances soon to be available at your local BIG BOX. They'll have 6G LTE wi fi, bluetooth, greentooth, and if you go deluxe, even snaggletooth.  Rest assured there will always be something NEW, IMPROVED, and TIER god knows what compliant to DOE regs.

 

On another note, totally unrelated, I am stoked. Yesterday my local supermarket FINALLY restocked Coke De Mexico.  They were out for almost 2 weeks and I was like, you know, soooo bummed.  But they came through and I got 2 bottles, glass in fact, and a healthy dose of good old fashioned(sorry) sugar. No HFCS. No aspirtine or what all.  Just sugar.  Along with the secret formula of course. All for a buck a bottle. And I felt good because I got a sugar rush AND carefully rinsed the empty and placed in my recycle bin.

 

In fact, it was necessary to drink it as I had time to kill to let the clumpy, messy grass dry out so I could go back all over it again, burning fuel at $2.69 a gallon to do with my modern mower what it should have done like a 25 year old Ariens.

 

But I digress.....................:)
smiley-sealed.gif
 
How can any one say that today's machines can't last 20 years or more? There hasn't been enough time to even make that argument. Come back in 2030 or so and then we'll talk about how long they lasted.

 

Also, not to beat a dead horse, but I'm pretty sure the current GE "Power Tower" models being sold as BOL wouldn't pass as true Potscrubbers. They don't have the passive filter assembly at the back, instead they have a round filter disc under the wash arm that looks to be a miniature crude version of what the WP PowerCleans and Point Voyagers used. The one I had in my apartment back 4-5 years ago had one of these. Everything had to be rinsed and it bothered me like crazy because there would be yiblets all over everything in the top rack, and because there was no upper spray arm, all the water pressure was going through the lower arm causing it to rotate too quickly, which seemed to hinder wash performance of stuck on foods when they *were* loaded in the machine.

 

The Nautilus we got in my family around when I was 15 or so was a Potscrubber, but these new BOL apartment grade machines are but ghosts of their former selves.

 

I don't really understand the point of the bashing that seems so prevalent on this site. You are absolutely free to use what machines you please and to avoid others like the plague as you see fit. I wouldn't touch a Samsung or LG manufactured appliance if I were paid to, but I'm not going to blatantly shut someone down if they get excellent performance or reliability from a machine they own. 

 

This notion that "today's dishwashers will use more than X gallons of water if they're really packed with heavy food soil" seems to me to be a pointless argument. Of course they will. They're designed that way. Can you imagine the outrage if a dishwasher was locked to it's minimum 2.7 gallon use regardless of whether the dishes are dirty or not? Actually, they were, at one time. Back 15-20 years ago, there were no sensors or algorithmic pressure tubes to decide whether a cycle could skip a prerinse or not. A Normal cycle would use X gallons, a Light cycle would use X-Y gallons, and a Heavy cycle would use X+Z gallons. The machine didn't care how dirty they were or if there was but a lone glass in the top rack. That's a waste. And that's precisely why machines are designed to be smarter with deciding water usage, and from my experience and that of many others, they've become very good at doing just that.

 

My Whirlpool 920 will use between 3 and 5 gallons on a typical cycle. That's with very little open space, if any, in the racks, and moderate food soils. Sometimes it surprises me by skipping straight to the main wash with loads that I would have expected it to go into full W-W-W-MW-P-R-R sequence. Yet every load comes out without a speck. Every now and then I'll find a stray piece of spinach or a noodle caught behind the silverware basket; no dishwasher is immune to that. How does that not classify as properly cleaned? There is no smell, no grit around the door seal, no yiblets on tops of glasses, the top of the tank has a mirror like finish, and the filter keeps perfectly clean save for a dot or two here or there that disappears by the next cycle. And because this machine's components are simpler and more efficient, there is less heat and vibration to cause wear and tear, meaning in theory that they should last a very long time. I'm sure combo52 could chime in, but since the release of Whirlpool's current platform in ~2010-2011(maybe even before that?) that is now being used in WP, KitchenAid, Kenmore, and Maytag dishwashers, there seems to be no major failure that has caused a widespread death of these machines. 

 

Yes, new machines -will- use more when needed, or when cycle/option selection forces them to. The WP's highest usage is listed as somewhere around 7.8 gallons or so. Why is there a complaint if this will produce excellent cleaning results and is still much lower than what old KA's and GE's would use on even their normal cycles, which could be around 12 gallons, and 15+ gallons for heavy cycles? Why does a machine HAVE TO guzzle water just for the hell of it?
 
Well Chet!!

I hate traditional top loaders.  My Lady Shredmore cured me of them.  If SQ offered a front loader with a supplemental heater, I'd buy one next time I need a front loader.  I see the supreme value for super hot water gradually heated.  I no longer have to soak for a while and in warm water to let heavy stains be dealt with and then drain and wash with hot water and then let the Shredemore obliterate my towels sheets and whites.  All using 75 to 100 gallons (with extra rinse) per load of laundry.  That kills my budget in conjunction with my sewer bill expense because of my water guzzling washer.   The above sequence takes as long, if not longer than my WP Duet heating water to 130 degrees from 115 to 120 and my garments are lasting a lot longer.  If I wash full loads a month in the winter, my water usage is very expensive.  Doing laundry with heavily soiled fabrics is far easier than it used to be.  And everything is CLEANER.

 

 If I have a group of people over for dinner, I kind of "sort" dish loads.  Prep and dinner dishes will go in the 1 hour wash cycle.  The dirtiest stuff gets dealt with while I'm asleep for 3 hours and I wake up to a clean load of dishes/casserole dishes.  Last Sunday my WP built Kenmore Elite, with self-cleaning filter, dealt with meat sauce stock pot, lasagna casserole, and brownie pan all without a hiccup in 2:15.  No food residue in bottom of tub nor on dishware.  And it was crammed even more than I thought I could get in there.  Even amazed me.  Auto wash with high-temp wash option.  At 2:15 ain't much different than my 99 minute GSD1200 Potscrubber cycle.   
 
I have frequently stated

That I am a big fan of the most advanced logic control.

It is, in fact the only way to make a dishwasher using little water and energy clean well.

 

So, yes, after a decade and one-half of awful detergents and horribly designed dishwashers, we now have good detergents and very short-lived but well-designed dishwashers which clean well using little water and energy.

In exchange for which they take forever. And a day.

 

I'll stick with vintage, thanks.

 

Now, as to the whole 'but this is only for 20 year old or newer'. Why yes, yes it is. It's from

<span style="font-size: 24pt;">1997</span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">to today. </span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Think about that, dahlinks - 20 years ago was already well past the vintage era and well into short-lived, logic controlled machines.</span>

 

I fail to see why comparing machines is forbidden here when at least one is from the end of the 20th century or later.

 
 
I see fact spinning folks. Ok to address a few things:

1. Yes the original Goodman design was a very, very trouble prone design. I do not deny that. But to say it has anything to do with Speed Queen's longevity is stretching it. When Speed Queen took in that design absolutely everything that failed on the Goodman design was re-engineered. The seals, transmission, outer tub, ect. Having Speed Queens with this new design in commercial service all over the world for 15 plus years performing well have proven that that improvements were well made.

2. Go to any scrap yard. How many 2000s machines do you find? How many people will tell you about the dreaded bearing noise in front loads after 7 years of daily use? I'm sure some will last 20 years, even those from notorious groups, but as a whole more machines are hitting the scrap yard today at age 10 then decades ago at age 30. Sure even back then there were WCIs, GEs, and D&Ms that hit the scrap in only 5-10 years, but the most popular brands like Kenmore and Maytag were lasting 20 years average with ease.

3. Granted today's BOL GEs are not what they used to be, but they still have similar parts to the old Potscrubbers. They hold just as much detergent as the old machines, and the main wash cycle is an hour long with the heater running the whole time on the push-button models (checked the tech sheet), effectively mimicking the extended main wash found on the 80s-90s machines. Yes the passive filter is long gone, but the new round filter is not bad at all in my experience. Compared to not having one on the 90s BOLs, I will say its a God send. I used one in 2008-2009 before moving out, and I have to admit that after dropping 2 table spoons of coffee grounds in the machine- they were all gone after a full cycle from Hot-start. Would the same happen without the filter? I know it would not, tried it when I had the late 90s BOL and it was the dumbest thing I've done. Several cycles and they were still cropping up. We may differ in experience, but the new BOL GEs with the round filter rival, if not exceed, the mid 80s BOLs in terms of preventing food particals from re-depositing on the dishes. And last but not least, the push-button (step up from BOL) has a system where water is sent over the top rack and deflected off a diffuser on the tub ceiling:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hotpoint-Front-Control-Dishwasher-in-White-HDA3600HWW/205224534

For those following my posts, I am seriously considering getting one as a daily driver.

4. "Why is there a complaint if this will produce excellent cleaning results and is still much lower than what old KA's and GE's would use on even their normal cycles, which could be around 12 gallons, and 15+ gallons for heavy cycles? Why does a machine HAVE TO guzzle water just for the hell of it?"

The 80s Potscrubbers, at least the mid 80s versions, used only 11.4 gallons on the Heaviest cycle while getting things clean to spec in my experience.

I do not deny people are getting absolutely spotless dishes in the New Whirlpools. But my point is this: if you load a Whirlpool up dirty, its water use will not be 3-5 gallons. It will be closer to a Vintage machine. Would defaulting to 8 gallons be silly if you pre-rinse? Of course! But if I always load power clean dirty, both a new machine and an old machine will end up taking the about same amount of water.
 
chetlaham,

You make very good points.

Yes, the GE dishwashers you listed under the link (I don't distinguish between Hotpoint and GE as they are the same thing) wash quite adequately.

The plastic cam for the soap door/rinse-aid is thinner and less well cast than on '80s units. The door seal is enormously better. The door liner is interchangeable with all Potscrubbers since the series began using this wonderful plastic design. The electronic units require a modification on the soap dispenser.

The sump is slightly more shallow and slightly more susceptible to damage.

The drain system doesn't drip as much.

The motor seal is better, the soft-food 'disposer' is less well designed.

All in all, this is the mature version of a very old design. One which, to the horror of all those who like to consider GE bad quality, lasts for thirty or more years without major repairs.
 
Well, perhaps we must agree to disagree my dear,

Panthera, I agree with 100% of everything You've said thus far, but being my opinionated self I must disagree with the disposer. IMHO the soft food disposer is way more advanced and significantly improved in durability over the 80s version. The 80s version that I remember was simply a steal wound wire that frequently broke off. I've found more missing than intact. But the new design appears far more likely to remain intact.

But yes, I do agree, that design is very mature and greatly improved. Post some pics when you get those new Hotpoints installed! :)
 
Chetlaham,

Well, I've seen some very worn grids on the newer design and never on the older, but, to be fair, yes, the current fine wire works enormously better than the knife which would bind on plastic  wrap and bread ties far more easily.

My concerns with these:

They're lacking insulation. It helps enormously to put an insulation blanket from a more expensive dishwasher on. I also would add waterproof insulation (painted on mastic?) to the inside of the door liner. I'd increase the insulation in the service panel, too - at which point this should be a very quiet unit.

The rinse-aid needs to be the very best - Lemishine works really well in these.

Friends who have them and who use 1 tablespoon of TSP in the detergent dispenser with a good detergent are extremely happy with the results - no pre-rinsing, dishes sparkling clean.

 

If you have really hot water at the sink, you can skip the hot-start. If you are doing back-to back loads (as I do when we entertain) you can stop the machine just before the end of the final rinse, empty it, reload it and then use that already quite warm water for the pre-wash.

 

I'd not trust the heated dry with plastics in the lower rack. One change - the current water inlet valves are now the 3/4" design everyone is using.

 

Not having a power-shower is a bummer, but the tip of the tower of power is specially designed to shoot water up through that tube in the upper rack to be dispersed by the molding in the top. It's not perfect, but gosh darn  it works well.

 

I suggested to my friends that they run a dry clorine tab every month or so, it seems to keep the tubes flowing to the filter.

 

All in all, if you can't go vintage (still the better choice) this is a good unit.

 

Oh - the modification so the float valve triggers the pump if too much water is in the unit was done with a standard micro-switch. It's an easy modification an one I'd do if your kitchen is above anything which might be ruined by an overflow. Not that they units have ever done that in my experience.
 
Having not read through the last 20 or so replys

Oh, so you'd be happy with anything made to old standards? Buy commercial. Miele offers a great range of homesize DW which will last more then 10 years, are efficent and clean well...

Oh they are to expensive? Well, they cost about as much as a DW for 430$ in 1970, adjusted for inflation!

Honestly, everybody who bashes around here does not - NOT AT ALL - consider everything about a product.

Oh they don't last long enough! Back then.... Yeah back then was a different economy where you would spend your salary of 1 or 2 entire months on an appliance.

Oh back then they were faster! - So what? Who needs dishes done in 1h today? Even back then, 2-3 hours would have been fine for most!

Oh, I miss phosphates! - Yeah, and I miss fish more.

Oh, they don't use enough water! - How do you quantify that?

Well they don't clean well! - They do. See most consumers.

I'm over this. This verry thread made me just give up. Hopefully this time for ever.

You self-declared professionals on this topic go and play in your corner, I'll watch and laugh from over here...
 
Henrik, I think I'll just respond in general to you.

First - if you don't bother to read the posts in a thread, why should anyone bother to read your comments? It's a matter of simple courtesy.

Second - TSP does not contribute to eutrophication. This is long since settled science. Your refusal to accept it is immature.

Third - I am happy to buy new things which are well built. Unfortunately, Miele in North America is not a productive choice. All my dishwashers in Germany after the early 1970s were Miele.

Fourth - Water used by a dishwasher is easily reclaimed. Your arguments foot on an assumption which does not hold in my community.

Fifth - Unless I've missed something, you don't entertain eight or more guests at least six times a month, you don't own your own business, you aren't responsible for keeping your home clean and tidy. I am. The difference between clean and done in one hour without pre-rinsing/washing and clean and done in two and one half, three or four is enormous to me. Get back to me when you have an adult life with adult responsibilities.

Six - Do, by all means laugh. You're far too serious and enormously too uneinsichtig for such a young man. 
 
TSP

This is obscene.
TSP, trisodium phosphate is certainly one of the phosphorus-containing compounds that heavily contributes to the eutrophication of water ways. Not only that, as it builds up in water ways, it poisons marine life.

STOP saying it does not. That is blatant misinformation based on your own feelings of wanting to use that product for your own gains.
Yes, yes I know farming injects lots of phosphates via runoff. But before phosphates were removed from detergents, in excess of 2 million TONS of phosphate was entering waterways from detergents alone.

If you THINK TSP is harmless, conduct your own science experiments to prove the decades of scientists wrong. That's the great thing about science. If your panties are twisted about the results, conduct your own tests.
I'd bet you'd come to the same conclusions if you were to actually conduct honest tests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisodium_phosphate

http://www.lenntech.com/aquatic/detergents.htm

https://water.usgs.gov/edu/phosphorus.html

I don't have access to Lexis Nexis or Jstore anymore, but here's a Jstore article you can sign up for:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/25031904?seq=1#fndtn-page_scan_tab_contents

And for "fun" here's a real phosphate experiment that students can conduct, measuring different detergents and testing their phosphate dilution. As well as adding amounts of.....you got it.....TEEE ESSSS PEEEE, in order to register different phosphate gains in the sample water.
It's the SAME PHOSPHATE.
http://earthecho.org/uploads/files/lesson-plans/Phosphates_in_Dishwasher_Detergents_HS.pdf

***Now of course I really don't expect these sources to change "anyone's" mind....especially these days when empirical evidence is shunned and science is done in peoples' own heads, with their own feelings and a priori assumptions.
Any evidence that contradicts their closely clutched world-view is to be dismissed and discredited.
 
Even if we were to pretend that

TSP could cause eutrophication, our local waste water treatment facility has had the capacity to remove it for many decades now.

This sort of emotion driven argumentation is not rational, nor is it productive.
 

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