Not dissing, if one of you guys measured the water usage on a Whirlpool with an ultra dirty load, I have a feeling it won't be 3-5 gallons.
Most powerful motor
- Thread starter Chetlaham
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washerdude
Well-known member
Not trying to to hijack the thread...
Just thought i'd leave this here...
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Now thats some fine BS at its best.
Just thought i'd leave this here...
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Now thats some fine BS at its best.
Very Impressive
As I've said before, dishwashers suffered from three really bad things happening to them all at once:
Low energy
Low water
No phosphates
After 10-15 years of bad performance, the manufacturers delivered machines that cleaned well beginning about six/seven years ago.
Now - how many hours did those machines run before the pizza/cake were gone? And how many equally dirty loads would a 1980's Potscrubber have gotten clean in that time - 3? 4?
http://https//www.realsimple.com/fo.../cooking/bob-blumers-dishwasher-salmon-recipe
As I've said before, dishwashers suffered from three really bad things happening to them all at once:
Low energy
Low water
No phosphates
After 10-15 years of bad performance, the manufacturers delivered machines that cleaned well beginning about six/seven years ago.
Now - how many hours did those machines run before the pizza/cake were gone? And how many equally dirty loads would a 1980's Potscrubber have gotten clean in that time - 3? 4?
http://https//www.realsimple.com/fo.../cooking/bob-blumers-dishwasher-salmon-recipe
Probably 2-4 hours
The thing is: Do you have 3-4 loads of dishes you have to clean within 2-4 hours? Ever? And if ever, how often?
The thing is: Do you have 3-4 loads of dishes you have to clean within 2-4 hours? Ever? And if ever, how often?
I'm so glad you asked that
The part of the US in which we live is even less well populated than Mac-Pom at it's most beautiful emptiness.
So - entertaining friends (at least once a week, roughly six times a month) means never less than four full loads in the dishwasher. Sometimes five or, when the 1953 Westinghouse Roaster is involved, six.
Now, I can run the modern energy-saving, water-saving dishwasher (which does clean well ) for over two hours per load (not counting dry time) for over eight hours, meaning a dirty kitchen for two days. Or, I can bang the stuff into each 1980's Potscrubber or a Potscrubber and a KA 15 and be done with the whole mess and in bed at one in the morning, waking up to a clean kitchen the next morning when we get up at 6.00 (yes, I sleep in, joy of owning your own business).
Wir berichten, Sie entscheiden! You've got the info, now you choose.
The part of the US in which we live is even less well populated than Mac-Pom at it's most beautiful emptiness.
So - entertaining friends (at least once a week, roughly six times a month) means never less than four full loads in the dishwasher. Sometimes five or, when the 1953 Westinghouse Roaster is involved, six.
Now, I can run the modern energy-saving, water-saving dishwasher (which does clean well ) for over two hours per load (not counting dry time) for over eight hours, meaning a dirty kitchen for two days. Or, I can bang the stuff into each 1980's Potscrubber or a Potscrubber and a KA 15 and be done with the whole mess and in bed at one in the morning, waking up to a clean kitchen the next morning when we get up at 6.00 (yes, I sleep in, joy of owning your own business).
Wir berichten, Sie entscheiden! You've got the info, now you choose.
These conversations are futile.
They don't make Potacrbbers anymore nor do they make Powercleans.
This forum is for discussing modern appliances and constantly arguing how much
people think they suck is pointless.
What are outside visitors supposed to learn in this forum?
That anything on sale at their local stores is trash?
Not sure how that's helpful to anyone......
There are GE machines and WP machines that have quicker cycles.
Such as the 75min Nornal GE cycle or the WP 1hr. Wash.
And they're probably adequate since the majority of people STILL pre-rinse all their dishes.
They don't make Potacrbbers anymore nor do they make Powercleans.
This forum is for discussing modern appliances and constantly arguing how much
people think they suck is pointless.
What are outside visitors supposed to learn in this forum?
That anything on sale at their local stores is trash?
Not sure how that's helpful to anyone......
There are GE machines and WP machines that have quicker cycles.
Such as the 75min Nornal GE cycle or the WP 1hr. Wash.
And they're probably adequate since the majority of people STILL pre-rinse all their dishes.
The reason modern junk is discounted.........is.............well...........because it is junk.
And it's not just appliances, but pretty much anything these days. The quality simply is not there.
Remember when tube tvs used to last? Now if you can get your super duper TFT, Halo anointed 12w of electrical usage to outlast the warranty, well jolly good for you and boy were you ever lucky!
Remember when ice boxes used to come with a 5 year warranty on the sealed refrigeration system?
Hell, at least my 1999 era GE plastic fantastic washer had a lifetime warranty on the fantastic plastic tub! Not anymore!
Some of us old fogies are old enough to fondly remember when there was a nuance of quality in most things. For shits and giggles, go read up on the new lineup of Husquvarna riders. Nearly all of them come with a plastic, that's right, plastic CVT made in Mexico or China by General Transmission. Methinks it is not repairable and I've read plenty online about how unreliable it is.
Some perhaps might define this as progress. I don't. Personally I think it is a travesty at the state of things today. Sure we have more choices than ever and every BIG BOX has some kind of buy now, no interest, pay later finance plan to extract that last dime from the hapless customer. But there's more to the story than that. There's landfills chock full of stuff that is simply tossed out because it cannot be repaired or it is not cost effective to do so. Some of the things are so chintzy it is an embarrassment to manufacturing. Eli Whitney would turn over in his grave if he saw the crap today.
No, I'm not at all impressed with NEW! IMPROVED! CHEAPER! EPA SANCTIONED! ALGORE BLESSED! anything today until I see first hand how it works and how it lasts.
And don't get me started on $250 Wi-fi capable thermostats that can be managed with yet another "killer app" on one's dumbphone. Like it is sooooooooooo important and necessary to manage your AC or furnace setting at 2:30 in the afternoon while in the office or at the mall.........................please.
And it's not just appliances, but pretty much anything these days. The quality simply is not there.
Remember when tube tvs used to last? Now if you can get your super duper TFT, Halo anointed 12w of electrical usage to outlast the warranty, well jolly good for you and boy were you ever lucky!
Remember when ice boxes used to come with a 5 year warranty on the sealed refrigeration system?
Hell, at least my 1999 era GE plastic fantastic washer had a lifetime warranty on the fantastic plastic tub! Not anymore!
Some of us old fogies are old enough to fondly remember when there was a nuance of quality in most things. For shits and giggles, go read up on the new lineup of Husquvarna riders. Nearly all of them come with a plastic, that's right, plastic CVT made in Mexico or China by General Transmission. Methinks it is not repairable and I've read plenty online about how unreliable it is.
Some perhaps might define this as progress. I don't. Personally I think it is a travesty at the state of things today. Sure we have more choices than ever and every BIG BOX has some kind of buy now, no interest, pay later finance plan to extract that last dime from the hapless customer. But there's more to the story than that. There's landfills chock full of stuff that is simply tossed out because it cannot be repaired or it is not cost effective to do so. Some of the things are so chintzy it is an embarrassment to manufacturing. Eli Whitney would turn over in his grave if he saw the crap today.
No, I'm not at all impressed with NEW! IMPROVED! CHEAPER! EPA SANCTIONED! ALGORE BLESSED! anything today until I see first hand how it works and how it lasts.
And don't get me started on $250 Wi-fi capable thermostats that can be managed with yet another "killer app" on one's dumbphone. Like it is sooooooooooo important and necessary to manage your AC or furnace setting at 2:30 in the afternoon while in the office or at the mall.........................please.
I say
We do a test. All said here is meaningless until we verify in the spirit of AW.org. Load a new machine up dirty and have it drain into buckets. My bet is it will use more than 5 gallons.
We do a test. All said here is meaningless until we verify in the spirit of AW.org. Load a new machine up dirty and have it drain into buckets. My bet is it will use more than 5 gallons.
Great, washman.
You're 1 person.
Not the market.
And until sales and profits are impacted, appliance companies will stay the course.
Besides, all the current 3-5 star reviews they have online will bolster their positions.
So you hate modern stuff. Great.
Do something then, than clog up the forums with nostalgic feelings. And trying to prove to everyone that anything after 1980 is crap.
Go be an appliance journalist or EPA scientist (oh sorry, those jobs are being eliminated)
Or go work for Whirlpool or LG.
Make a difference.
I lived through the 80s. Some things were great and some were absolute crap.
Just like today. No different.
If my cousin needs a DW tomorrow, this is probably the last research source I'd send her.
Except for maybe Murando's stellar WP thread.
You're 1 person.
Not the market.
And until sales and profits are impacted, appliance companies will stay the course.
Besides, all the current 3-5 star reviews they have online will bolster their positions.
So you hate modern stuff. Great.
Do something then, than clog up the forums with nostalgic feelings. And trying to prove to everyone that anything after 1980 is crap.
Go be an appliance journalist or EPA scientist (oh sorry, those jobs are being eliminated)
Or go work for Whirlpool or LG.
Make a difference.
I lived through the 80s. Some things were great and some were absolute crap.
Just like today. No different.
If my cousin needs a DW tomorrow, this is probably the last research source I'd send her.
Except for maybe Murando's stellar WP thread.
<blockquote>Washman: And don't get me started on $250 Wi-fi capable thermostats that can be managed with yet another "killer app" on one's dumbphone. Like it is sooooooooooo important and necessary to manage your AC or furnace setting at 2:30 in the afternoon while in the office or at the mall.........................please.</blockquote> Just to say, I thought at first that the WiFi thermostats at work were unnecessary but they've proved to be quite useful.
1) I can lock-out the buttons on them so control is only via the app, which prevents customers from cranking the cooling down to 60°F or the heat to 85°F if someone breaks into the security cover, which has happened in the past.
2) Monitoring the temperature has allowed me on several occasions to determine that there was a malfunction (such as 2nd stage cooling not working), which *no one* on the premises would have noted the problem as quickly.
This thread is for machines made in the last 20 years
GE is still selling brand new potscrubbers, I just ordered seven at our local Homeless Despot for an apartment complex.
So, what on earth is the point?
We all acknowledge that modern dishwashers and modern detergents do a good job of cleaning.
We all acknowledge that, unless one pre-rinses and pre-scrubs (in which case they 'only' need sixty-seventy-five minutes) they need more than two and often three or four hours to clean.
Yes, they use less water and less energy. Unless, of course, one pre-rinses, in which case they use MORE than a potscrubber which doesn't need things to be pre-rinsed.
As for the TSP arguments, sorry, but chemistry isn't subject to personal opinion. It does not cause eutrophication and no amount of screaming about it will change that.
So - don't bother reading threads which you don't care for. Le Poof! Problem solved.
GE is still selling brand new potscrubbers, I just ordered seven at our local Homeless Despot for an apartment complex.
So, what on earth is the point?
We all acknowledge that modern dishwashers and modern detergents do a good job of cleaning.
We all acknowledge that, unless one pre-rinses and pre-scrubs (in which case they 'only' need sixty-seventy-five minutes) they need more than two and often three or four hours to clean.
Yes, they use less water and less energy. Unless, of course, one pre-rinses, in which case they use MORE than a potscrubber which doesn't need things to be pre-rinsed.
As for the TSP arguments, sorry, but chemistry isn't subject to personal opinion. It does not cause eutrophication and no amount of screaming about it will change that.
So - don't bother reading threads which you don't care for. Le Poof! Problem solved.
Yes, they are
Most definitely Potscrubbers by any rational definition.
BOL or near BOL, but in every way Potscrubbers:
The tower of power is interchangeable with any non-orbital Potscrubber (and with minor effort with any)
Their sump, pump, 'soft-food disposer', drain system, filtration are identical and one-to-one replacements for virtually all BOL/MOL potscrubbers from the last 4 decades.
Their cutlery, lower rack and upper rack are interchangeable.
Their timer is interchangeable. The programs are identical to various BOL/MOL programs used since the late 1990's in Potscrubber III. Oh, and GE dropped the 'III' right quick, too.
Their heated water selection is identical to BOL/MOL systems used by GE for their Kenmore Potscrubber systems.
Their---Oh, come on - in what manner are they not Potscrubbers? A missing label? Because they say 'Hotpoint'?
Most definitely Potscrubbers by any rational definition.
BOL or near BOL, but in every way Potscrubbers:
The tower of power is interchangeable with any non-orbital Potscrubber (and with minor effort with any)
Their sump, pump, 'soft-food disposer', drain system, filtration are identical and one-to-one replacements for virtually all BOL/MOL potscrubbers from the last 4 decades.
Their cutlery, lower rack and upper rack are interchangeable.
Their timer is interchangeable. The programs are identical to various BOL/MOL programs used since the late 1990's in Potscrubber III. Oh, and GE dropped the 'III' right quick, too.
Their heated water selection is identical to BOL/MOL systems used by GE for their Kenmore Potscrubber systems.
Their---Oh, come on - in what manner are they not Potscrubbers? A missing label? Because they say 'Hotpoint'?
Potscrubber
Considering the main wash cycle time being 56 minutes, Its not far off from the original concept.
I understand people are satisfied and appreciate the current performance of modern machines and I myself do for the most part, but I can not live with something that could last less than 10 years. Whats that point? What is the point in making what is basically complete junk in terms of durability and reliability with replacement parts that cost half the purchase price? Whats the point of a machine jumping from $400 to $800 for just a few extra cycles enabled into the same control board?
"Not the market" Yes, because people 1. Need appliances no matter what (picture gas/diesel going to $20 a gallons, people would still keep buying it because we can't function without it), 2. Most do not know better, especially current millennials. 3. Those that do know, have no nothing to choose from. Yes washer and dryer folks can bypass the BS through Speed Queen, but what about other white goods? Sure that $5,000 commercial Hobart can last 30+ years, but it just won't work in a residential setting. In short consumers are being miss lead, lied to, and forced to spend more on glitz and glamour.
The blunt truth, and what no one will tell you is that if LG, Samsung, GE and Whirlpool sold their $1000 machines for only $500 they would still be making a profit. Today's machines cost next to nothing to make, built to become obsolete, yet are sold as though their makers invested lavishly in raw material with the anticipation the consumer would not buy another one for decades to come. Again, GE built appliances that costed next to nothing to make, yet lasted 30+ years under abuse conditions not found in typical homes all while doing a respectable job.
Case in point:
A person can purchase a $1,500 Speed Queen front load that not only lasts 30+ years, but uses little energy, cleans faster than traditional front loads and has leading warranty. No HE syndromes and proven reliability for decades in the commercial bossiness.
For the same money a person can purchase a glitzy LG signature or something similar from Samsung or Whirlpool. Looks great, sings songs, uses less energy, everyone gets impressed by it- could even be WIFI; but takes longer to wash, does not last more than 12 years- assuming your lucky and it makes it that far. Good luck with something breaking after one year, and hopefully you are not the guinea pig for the first model generation which more often that not does have bugs because its so cheaply engineered.
Considering the main wash cycle time being 56 minutes, Its not far off from the original concept.
I understand people are satisfied and appreciate the current performance of modern machines and I myself do for the most part, but I can not live with something that could last less than 10 years. Whats that point? What is the point in making what is basically complete junk in terms of durability and reliability with replacement parts that cost half the purchase price? Whats the point of a machine jumping from $400 to $800 for just a few extra cycles enabled into the same control board?
"Not the market" Yes, because people 1. Need appliances no matter what (picture gas/diesel going to $20 a gallons, people would still keep buying it because we can't function without it), 2. Most do not know better, especially current millennials. 3. Those that do know, have no nothing to choose from. Yes washer and dryer folks can bypass the BS through Speed Queen, but what about other white goods? Sure that $5,000 commercial Hobart can last 30+ years, but it just won't work in a residential setting. In short consumers are being miss lead, lied to, and forced to spend more on glitz and glamour.
The blunt truth, and what no one will tell you is that if LG, Samsung, GE and Whirlpool sold their $1000 machines for only $500 they would still be making a profit. Today's machines cost next to nothing to make, built to become obsolete, yet are sold as though their makers invested lavishly in raw material with the anticipation the consumer would not buy another one for decades to come. Again, GE built appliances that costed next to nothing to make, yet lasted 30+ years under abuse conditions not found in typical homes all while doing a respectable job.
Case in point:
A person can purchase a $1,500 Speed Queen front load that not only lasts 30+ years, but uses little energy, cleans faster than traditional front loads and has leading warranty. No HE syndromes and proven reliability for decades in the commercial bossiness.
For the same money a person can purchase a glitzy LG signature or something similar from Samsung or Whirlpool. Looks great, sings songs, uses less energy, everyone gets impressed by it- could even be WIFI; but takes longer to wash, does not last more than 12 years- assuming your lucky and it makes it that far. Good luck with something breaking after one year, and hopefully you are not the guinea pig for the first model generation which more often that not does have bugs because its so cheaply engineered.
Haha Haha
Vindicated that this "new is junk" argument will never end.
You guys better pray every night a tornado doesn't hit the Speed Queen plant.
The tears would fill an old Norge 10x over.
It's sad. You guys will never ever be happy with anything unless it's old.
It's too bad so many are setting themselves up for a life of disappointment.
This thread was to discuss motors on the market.
And of course it's spiraled out of control into the realm of nostalgia and emotional arguments.
Every time a thread goes down this path, it whittles away more and more at the relevance of this Deluxe forum.
AND I've used those GE HP machines with Potscrubber ancestry.
I'll reiterate; they're not Potscrubbers.
Go ahead and use their donor parts to maybe keep your Potscrubbers alive.
Just because some components are similar does not make them the Potscrubbers of yesteryear.
They're set up to use and distribute less volumes of water.
Modified to maybe work with modern detergents. At best.
And they are usurped in performance by more modern architecture.
Vindicated that this "new is junk" argument will never end.
You guys better pray every night a tornado doesn't hit the Speed Queen plant.
The tears would fill an old Norge 10x over.
It's sad. You guys will never ever be happy with anything unless it's old.
It's too bad so many are setting themselves up for a life of disappointment.
This thread was to discuss motors on the market.
And of course it's spiraled out of control into the realm of nostalgia and emotional arguments.
Every time a thread goes down this path, it whittles away more and more at the relevance of this Deluxe forum.
AND I've used those GE HP machines with Potscrubber ancestry.
I'll reiterate; they're not Potscrubbers.
Go ahead and use their donor parts to maybe keep your Potscrubbers alive.
Just because some components are similar does not make them the Potscrubbers of yesteryear.
They're set up to use and distribute less volumes of water.
Modified to maybe work with modern detergents. At best.
And they are usurped in performance by more modern architecture.
"You guys will never ever be happy with anything unless it's old"
Nope, I think our (at least my) adoration for Speed Queen is proof of that not being so. Speed Queen is new, not old. Do I love vintage top loads? You bet! But if someone gave me a new in box Speed Queen front load to use as a daily driver would I jump for joy and take it? Heck yahhh!!!!!!!
Its not that I am stuck on age or ideology, I just want something without all the BS while being able to last 30+ years.
Nope, I think our (at least my) adoration for Speed Queen is proof of that not being so. Speed Queen is new, not old. Do I love vintage top loads? You bet! But if someone gave me a new in box Speed Queen front load to use as a daily driver would I jump for joy and take it? Heck yahhh!!!!!!!
Its not that I am stuck on age or ideology, I just want something without all the BS while being able to last 30+ years.
John,
If you are willing to use TSP and 145F water, they wash great. Especially with the newest detergents, even without TSP.
True, GE foolishly lowered the water consumption in a vain attempt to make a high-water system look 'efficient'.
Fortunately, though, they left more than enough water to work.
Now - do I wish for the multi-orbital arm? Yup. Do I wish for the old 900Watt element,Yup.
But, yes, you're quite right - I do regard them as donor-parts. Why not? With a bit of effort, one can turn a new potscrubber into a vintage one.
If you are willing to use TSP and 145F water, they wash great. Especially with the newest detergents, even without TSP.
True, GE foolishly lowered the water consumption in a vain attempt to make a high-water system look 'efficient'.
Fortunately, though, they left more than enough water to work.
Now - do I wish for the multi-orbital arm? Yup. Do I wish for the old 900Watt element,Yup.
But, yes, you're quite right - I do regard them as donor-parts. Why not? With a bit of effort, one can turn a new potscrubber into a vintage one.
Well John you missed the year. I say 1979 because that was the last year Mcgraw Edison owned Speed Queen and the last year GM made Frigidaire.
I do pray that the the SQ plant in Ripon survives another 100 years. Or at least until I pass on.
I did do something today. I dug up a few rocks in my yard, chucked them in the driveway.
Then I proceeded to use my ultramodern (2016) EPA and CPSC casterated mower, complete with a 24HP B&S motor that provided me nearly an hour of BS yard cutting because the effing thing can't handle slightly damp grass, won't discharge the stuff evenly (yes I shortened the asinine plastic deflector.........a whole bunch in fact), and I marvelled at how at 90's era Ariens with a 13 HP single cyl. Junkumesh OHV engine would outcut this overhyped super safe POS of a mower. But hey, if I fall off the seat, it stops. If I have a coronary and croak whilst I mow, it will stop. It even makes me turn the key so I can mow in reverse. How thoughtful. NEver mind I spent thousands of hours mowing on old school riders (long before you were born cochise) and never had to contend with a ROS issue.
I could go on, but hopefully you are perceptive enough to get the point. And while we're at it, maybe YOU should go someplace and tout how wonderful all the modern stuff is. I'm sure you'll find an audience.
I do pray that the the SQ plant in Ripon survives another 100 years. Or at least until I pass on.
I did do something today. I dug up a few rocks in my yard, chucked them in the driveway.
Then I proceeded to use my ultramodern (2016) EPA and CPSC casterated mower, complete with a 24HP B&S motor that provided me nearly an hour of BS yard cutting because the effing thing can't handle slightly damp grass, won't discharge the stuff evenly (yes I shortened the asinine plastic deflector.........a whole bunch in fact), and I marvelled at how at 90's era Ariens with a 13 HP single cyl. Junkumesh OHV engine would outcut this overhyped super safe POS of a mower. But hey, if I fall off the seat, it stops. If I have a coronary and croak whilst I mow, it will stop. It even makes me turn the key so I can mow in reverse. How thoughtful. NEver mind I spent thousands of hours mowing on old school riders (long before you were born cochise) and never had to contend with a ROS issue.
I could go on, but hopefully you are perceptive enough to get the point. And while we're at it, maybe YOU should go someplace and tout how wonderful all the modern stuff is. I'm sure you'll find an audience.
Yeah. THIS is supposed to be the audience.
This is the modern forum. 1997 to today.
But whenever anyone tries to have a meaningful conversation about machines of that timeframe it gets derailed by a select audience with totally irrelevant commentary.
I'm sorry to the OP that we're no longer discussing current market motors.
This is the modern forum. 1997 to today.
But whenever anyone tries to have a meaningful conversation about machines of that timeframe it gets derailed by a select audience with totally irrelevant commentary.
I'm sorry to the OP that we're no longer discussing current market motors.
Don't be sorry 
The OP does not care about the direction this thread has turned, like any conversation in real life it will change topic; and in fact I'd say its been a worthwhile conversation. I am content.
The OP does not care about the direction this thread has turned, like any conversation in real life it will change topic; and in fact I'd say its been a worthwhile conversation. I am content.
Now get some buckets!
(joking folks, joking)It's ok John. Really it is. There's thousands of threads on this very forum. There's tons of millennials who agree with you part and parcel. LG and Samsung aren't going away anytime soon. In fact, they are hard at work, locating a factory in China that will incorporate the latest in 6 Sigma production methods for the next generation of appliances soon to be available at your local BIG BOX. They'll have 6G LTE wi fi, bluetooth, greentooth, and if you go deluxe, even snaggletooth. Rest assured there will always be something NEW, IMPROVED, and TIER god knows what compliant to DOE regs.
On another note, totally unrelated, I am stoked. Yesterday my local supermarket FINALLY restocked Coke De Mexico. They were out for almost 2 weeks and I was like, you know, soooo bummed. But they came through and I got 2 bottles, glass in fact, and a healthy dose of good old fashioned(sorry) sugar. No HFCS. No aspirtine or what all. Just sugar. Along with the secret formula of course. All for a buck a bottle. And I felt good because I got a sugar rush AND carefully rinsed the empty and placed in my recycle bin.
In fact, it was necessary to drink it as I had time to kill to let the clumpy, messy grass dry out so I could go back all over it again, burning fuel at $2.69 a gallon to do with my modern mower what it should have done like a 25 year old Ariens.
But I digress.....................
On another note, totally unrelated, I am stoked. Yesterday my local supermarket FINALLY restocked Coke De Mexico. They were out for almost 2 weeks and I was like, you know, soooo bummed. But they came through and I got 2 bottles, glass in fact, and a healthy dose of good old fashioned(sorry) sugar. No HFCS. No aspirtine or what all. Just sugar. Along with the secret formula of course. All for a buck a bottle. And I felt good because I got a sugar rush AND carefully rinsed the empty and placed in my recycle bin.
In fact, it was necessary to drink it as I had time to kill to let the clumpy, messy grass dry out so I could go back all over it again, burning fuel at $2.69 a gallon to do with my modern mower what it should have done like a 25 year old Ariens.
But I digress.....................
Speed Queen top load washers are not new. The design has been around, in it,s present form, since the 90,s. Trouble prone design when owned
d by Goodman , then Maytag. Though it has heavily built suspension, and more steel than others, I am not yet Convinced of longevity claims.
d by Goodman , then Maytag. Though it has heavily built suspension, and more steel than others, I am not yet Convinced of longevity claims.
murando531
Well-known member
How can any one say that today's machines can't last 20 years or more? There hasn't been enough time to even make that argument. Come back in 2030 or so and then we'll talk about how long they lasted.
Also, not to beat a dead horse, but I'm pretty sure the current GE "Power Tower" models being sold as BOL wouldn't pass as true Potscrubbers. They don't have the passive filter assembly at the back, instead they have a round filter disc under the wash arm that looks to be a miniature crude version of what the WP PowerCleans and Point Voyagers used. The one I had in my apartment back 4-5 years ago had one of these. Everything had to be rinsed and it bothered me like crazy because there would be yiblets all over everything in the top rack, and because there was no upper spray arm, all the water pressure was going through the lower arm causing it to rotate too quickly, which seemed to hinder wash performance of stuck on foods when they *were* loaded in the machine.
The Nautilus we got in my family around when I was 15 or so was a Potscrubber, but these new BOL apartment grade machines are but ghosts of their former selves.
I don't really understand the point of the bashing that seems so prevalent on this site. You are absolutely free to use what machines you please and to avoid others like the plague as you see fit. I wouldn't touch a Samsung or LG manufactured appliance if I were paid to, but I'm not going to blatantly shut someone down if they get excellent performance or reliability from a machine they own.
This notion that "today's dishwashers will use more than X gallons of water if they're really packed with heavy food soil" seems to me to be a pointless argument. Of course they will. They're designed that way. Can you imagine the outrage if a dishwasher was locked to it's minimum 2.7 gallon use regardless of whether the dishes are dirty or not? Actually, they were, at one time. Back 15-20 years ago, there were no sensors or algorithmic pressure tubes to decide whether a cycle could skip a prerinse or not. A Normal cycle would use X gallons, a Light cycle would use X-Y gallons, and a Heavy cycle would use X+Z gallons. The machine didn't care how dirty they were or if there was but a lone glass in the top rack. That's a waste. And that's precisely why machines are designed to be smarter with deciding water usage, and from my experience and that of many others, they've become very good at doing just that.
My Whirlpool 920 will use between 3 and 5 gallons on a typical cycle. That's with very little open space, if any, in the racks, and moderate food soils. Sometimes it surprises me by skipping straight to the main wash with loads that I would have expected it to go into full W-W-W-MW-P-R-R sequence. Yet every load comes out without a speck. Every now and then I'll find a stray piece of spinach or a noodle caught behind the silverware basket; no dishwasher is immune to that. How does that not classify as properly cleaned? There is no smell, no grit around the door seal, no yiblets on tops of glasses, the top of the tank has a mirror like finish, and the filter keeps perfectly clean save for a dot or two here or there that disappears by the next cycle. And because this machine's components are simpler and more efficient, there is less heat and vibration to cause wear and tear, meaning in theory that they should last a very long time. I'm sure combo52 could chime in, but since the release of Whirlpool's current platform in ~2010-2011(maybe even before that?) that is now being used in WP, KitchenAid, Kenmore, and Maytag dishwashers, there seems to be no major failure that has caused a widespread death of these machines.
Yes, new machines -will- use more when needed, or when cycle/option selection forces them to. The WP's highest usage is listed as somewhere around 7.8 gallons or so. Why is there a complaint if this will produce excellent cleaning results and is still much lower than what old KA's and GE's would use on even their normal cycles, which could be around 12 gallons, and 15+ gallons for heavy cycles? Why does a machine HAVE TO guzzle water just for the hell of it?
Also, not to beat a dead horse, but I'm pretty sure the current GE "Power Tower" models being sold as BOL wouldn't pass as true Potscrubbers. They don't have the passive filter assembly at the back, instead they have a round filter disc under the wash arm that looks to be a miniature crude version of what the WP PowerCleans and Point Voyagers used. The one I had in my apartment back 4-5 years ago had one of these. Everything had to be rinsed and it bothered me like crazy because there would be yiblets all over everything in the top rack, and because there was no upper spray arm, all the water pressure was going through the lower arm causing it to rotate too quickly, which seemed to hinder wash performance of stuck on foods when they *were* loaded in the machine.
The Nautilus we got in my family around when I was 15 or so was a Potscrubber, but these new BOL apartment grade machines are but ghosts of their former selves.
I don't really understand the point of the bashing that seems so prevalent on this site. You are absolutely free to use what machines you please and to avoid others like the plague as you see fit. I wouldn't touch a Samsung or LG manufactured appliance if I were paid to, but I'm not going to blatantly shut someone down if they get excellent performance or reliability from a machine they own.
This notion that "today's dishwashers will use more than X gallons of water if they're really packed with heavy food soil" seems to me to be a pointless argument. Of course they will. They're designed that way. Can you imagine the outrage if a dishwasher was locked to it's minimum 2.7 gallon use regardless of whether the dishes are dirty or not? Actually, they were, at one time. Back 15-20 years ago, there were no sensors or algorithmic pressure tubes to decide whether a cycle could skip a prerinse or not. A Normal cycle would use X gallons, a Light cycle would use X-Y gallons, and a Heavy cycle would use X+Z gallons. The machine didn't care how dirty they were or if there was but a lone glass in the top rack. That's a waste. And that's precisely why machines are designed to be smarter with deciding water usage, and from my experience and that of many others, they've become very good at doing just that.
My Whirlpool 920 will use between 3 and 5 gallons on a typical cycle. That's with very little open space, if any, in the racks, and moderate food soils. Sometimes it surprises me by skipping straight to the main wash with loads that I would have expected it to go into full W-W-W-MW-P-R-R sequence. Yet every load comes out without a speck. Every now and then I'll find a stray piece of spinach or a noodle caught behind the silverware basket; no dishwasher is immune to that. How does that not classify as properly cleaned? There is no smell, no grit around the door seal, no yiblets on tops of glasses, the top of the tank has a mirror like finish, and the filter keeps perfectly clean save for a dot or two here or there that disappears by the next cycle. And because this machine's components are simpler and more efficient, there is less heat and vibration to cause wear and tear, meaning in theory that they should last a very long time. I'm sure combo52 could chime in, but since the release of Whirlpool's current platform in ~2010-2011(maybe even before that?) that is now being used in WP, KitchenAid, Kenmore, and Maytag dishwashers, there seems to be no major failure that has caused a widespread death of these machines.
Yes, new machines -will- use more when needed, or when cycle/option selection forces them to. The WP's highest usage is listed as somewhere around 7.8 gallons or so. Why is there a complaint if this will produce excellent cleaning results and is still much lower than what old KA's and GE's would use on even their normal cycles, which could be around 12 gallons, and 15+ gallons for heavy cycles? Why does a machine HAVE TO guzzle water just for the hell of it?
Well Chet!!
I hate traditional top loaders. My Lady Shredmore cured me of them. If SQ offered a front loader with a supplemental heater, I'd buy one next time I need a front loader. I see the supreme value for super hot water gradually heated. I no longer have to soak for a while and in warm water to let heavy stains be dealt with and then drain and wash with hot water and then let the Shredemore obliterate my towels sheets and whites. All using 75 to 100 gallons (with extra rinse) per load of laundry. That kills my budget in conjunction with my sewer bill expense because of my water guzzling washer. The above sequence takes as long, if not longer than my WP Duet heating water to 130 degrees from 115 to 120 and my garments are lasting a lot longer. If I wash full loads a month in the winter, my water usage is very expensive. Doing laundry with heavily soiled fabrics is far easier than it used to be. And everything is CLEANER.
If I have a group of people over for dinner, I kind of "sort" dish loads. Prep and dinner dishes will go in the 1 hour wash cycle. The dirtiest stuff gets dealt with while I'm asleep for 3 hours and I wake up to a clean load of dishes/casserole dishes. Last Sunday my WP built Kenmore Elite, with self-cleaning filter, dealt with meat sauce stock pot, lasagna casserole, and brownie pan all without a hiccup in 2:15. No food residue in bottom of tub nor on dishware. And it was crammed even more than I thought I could get in there. Even amazed me. Auto wash with high-temp wash option. At 2:15 ain't much different than my 99 minute GSD1200 Potscrubber cycle.
I hate traditional top loaders. My Lady Shredmore cured me of them. If SQ offered a front loader with a supplemental heater, I'd buy one next time I need a front loader. I see the supreme value for super hot water gradually heated. I no longer have to soak for a while and in warm water to let heavy stains be dealt with and then drain and wash with hot water and then let the Shredemore obliterate my towels sheets and whites. All using 75 to 100 gallons (with extra rinse) per load of laundry. That kills my budget in conjunction with my sewer bill expense because of my water guzzling washer. The above sequence takes as long, if not longer than my WP Duet heating water to 130 degrees from 115 to 120 and my garments are lasting a lot longer. If I wash full loads a month in the winter, my water usage is very expensive. Doing laundry with heavily soiled fabrics is far easier than it used to be. And everything is CLEANER.
If I have a group of people over for dinner, I kind of "sort" dish loads. Prep and dinner dishes will go in the 1 hour wash cycle. The dirtiest stuff gets dealt with while I'm asleep for 3 hours and I wake up to a clean load of dishes/casserole dishes. Last Sunday my WP built Kenmore Elite, with self-cleaning filter, dealt with meat sauce stock pot, lasagna casserole, and brownie pan all without a hiccup in 2:15. No food residue in bottom of tub nor on dishware. And it was crammed even more than I thought I could get in there. Even amazed me. Auto wash with high-temp wash option. At 2:15 ain't much different than my 99 minute GSD1200 Potscrubber cycle.
I have frequently stated
That I am a big fan of the most advanced logic control.
It is, in fact the only way to make a dishwasher using little water and energy clean well.
So, yes, after a decade and one-half of awful detergents and horribly designed dishwashers, we now have good detergents and very short-lived but well-designed dishwashers which clean well using little water and energy.
In exchange for which they take forever. And a day.
I'll stick with vintage, thanks.
Now, as to the whole 'but this is only for 20 year old or newer'. Why yes, yes it is. It's from
<span style="font-size: 24pt;">1997</span>
<span style="font-size: 12pt;">to today. </span>
<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Think about that, dahlinks - 20 years ago was already well past the vintage era and well into short-lived, logic controlled machines.</span>
I fail to see why comparing machines is forbidden here when at least one is from the end of the 20th century or later.
That I am a big fan of the most advanced logic control.
It is, in fact the only way to make a dishwasher using little water and energy clean well.
So, yes, after a decade and one-half of awful detergents and horribly designed dishwashers, we now have good detergents and very short-lived but well-designed dishwashers which clean well using little water and energy.
In exchange for which they take forever. And a day.
I'll stick with vintage, thanks.
Now, as to the whole 'but this is only for 20 year old or newer'. Why yes, yes it is. It's from
<span style="font-size: 24pt;">1997</span>
<span style="font-size: 12pt;">to today. </span>
<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Think about that, dahlinks - 20 years ago was already well past the vintage era and well into short-lived, logic controlled machines.</span>
I fail to see why comparing machines is forbidden here when at least one is from the end of the 20th century or later.
I see fact spinning folks. Ok to address a few things:
1. Yes the original Goodman design was a very, very trouble prone design. I do not deny that. But to say it has anything to do with Speed Queen's longevity is stretching it. When Speed Queen took in that design absolutely everything that failed on the Goodman design was re-engineered. The seals, transmission, outer tub, ect. Having Speed Queens with this new design in commercial service all over the world for 15 plus years performing well have proven that that improvements were well made.
2. Go to any scrap yard. How many 2000s machines do you find? How many people will tell you about the dreaded bearing noise in front loads after 7 years of daily use? I'm sure some will last 20 years, even those from notorious groups, but as a whole more machines are hitting the scrap yard today at age 10 then decades ago at age 30. Sure even back then there were WCIs, GEs, and D&Ms that hit the scrap in only 5-10 years, but the most popular brands like Kenmore and Maytag were lasting 20 years average with ease.
3. Granted today's BOL GEs are not what they used to be, but they still have similar parts to the old Potscrubbers. They hold just as much detergent as the old machines, and the main wash cycle is an hour long with the heater running the whole time on the push-button models (checked the tech sheet), effectively mimicking the extended main wash found on the 80s-90s machines. Yes the passive filter is long gone, but the new round filter is not bad at all in my experience. Compared to not having one on the 90s BOLs, I will say its a God send. I used one in 2008-2009 before moving out, and I have to admit that after dropping 2 table spoons of coffee grounds in the machine- they were all gone after a full cycle from Hot-start. Would the same happen without the filter? I know it would not, tried it when I had the late 90s BOL and it was the dumbest thing I've done. Several cycles and they were still cropping up. We may differ in experience, but the new BOL GEs with the round filter rival, if not exceed, the mid 80s BOLs in terms of preventing food particals from re-depositing on the dishes. And last but not least, the push-button (step up from BOL) has a system where water is sent over the top rack and deflected off a diffuser on the tub ceiling:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hotpoint-Front-Control-Dishwasher-in-White-HDA3600HWW/205224534
For those following my posts, I am seriously considering getting one as a daily driver.
4. "Why is there a complaint if this will produce excellent cleaning results and is still much lower than what old KA's and GE's would use on even their normal cycles, which could be around 12 gallons, and 15+ gallons for heavy cycles? Why does a machine HAVE TO guzzle water just for the hell of it?"
The 80s Potscrubbers, at least the mid 80s versions, used only 11.4 gallons on the Heaviest cycle while getting things clean to spec in my experience.
I do not deny people are getting absolutely spotless dishes in the New Whirlpools. But my point is this: if you load a Whirlpool up dirty, its water use will not be 3-5 gallons. It will be closer to a Vintage machine. Would defaulting to 8 gallons be silly if you pre-rinse? Of course! But if I always load power clean dirty, both a new machine and an old machine will end up taking the about same amount of water.
1. Yes the original Goodman design was a very, very trouble prone design. I do not deny that. But to say it has anything to do with Speed Queen's longevity is stretching it. When Speed Queen took in that design absolutely everything that failed on the Goodman design was re-engineered. The seals, transmission, outer tub, ect. Having Speed Queens with this new design in commercial service all over the world for 15 plus years performing well have proven that that improvements were well made.
2. Go to any scrap yard. How many 2000s machines do you find? How many people will tell you about the dreaded bearing noise in front loads after 7 years of daily use? I'm sure some will last 20 years, even those from notorious groups, but as a whole more machines are hitting the scrap yard today at age 10 then decades ago at age 30. Sure even back then there were WCIs, GEs, and D&Ms that hit the scrap in only 5-10 years, but the most popular brands like Kenmore and Maytag were lasting 20 years average with ease.
3. Granted today's BOL GEs are not what they used to be, but they still have similar parts to the old Potscrubbers. They hold just as much detergent as the old machines, and the main wash cycle is an hour long with the heater running the whole time on the push-button models (checked the tech sheet), effectively mimicking the extended main wash found on the 80s-90s machines. Yes the passive filter is long gone, but the new round filter is not bad at all in my experience. Compared to not having one on the 90s BOLs, I will say its a God send. I used one in 2008-2009 before moving out, and I have to admit that after dropping 2 table spoons of coffee grounds in the machine- they were all gone after a full cycle from Hot-start. Would the same happen without the filter? I know it would not, tried it when I had the late 90s BOL and it was the dumbest thing I've done. Several cycles and they were still cropping up. We may differ in experience, but the new BOL GEs with the round filter rival, if not exceed, the mid 80s BOLs in terms of preventing food particals from re-depositing on the dishes. And last but not least, the push-button (step up from BOL) has a system where water is sent over the top rack and deflected off a diffuser on the tub ceiling:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hotpoint-Front-Control-Dishwasher-in-White-HDA3600HWW/205224534
For those following my posts, I am seriously considering getting one as a daily driver.
4. "Why is there a complaint if this will produce excellent cleaning results and is still much lower than what old KA's and GE's would use on even their normal cycles, which could be around 12 gallons, and 15+ gallons for heavy cycles? Why does a machine HAVE TO guzzle water just for the hell of it?"
The 80s Potscrubbers, at least the mid 80s versions, used only 11.4 gallons on the Heaviest cycle while getting things clean to spec in my experience.
I do not deny people are getting absolutely spotless dishes in the New Whirlpools. But my point is this: if you load a Whirlpool up dirty, its water use will not be 3-5 gallons. It will be closer to a Vintage machine. Would defaulting to 8 gallons be silly if you pre-rinse? Of course! But if I always load power clean dirty, both a new machine and an old machine will end up taking the about same amount of water.
chetlaham,
You make very good points.
Yes, the GE dishwashers you listed under the link (I don't distinguish between Hotpoint and GE as they are the same thing) wash quite adequately.
The plastic cam for the soap door/rinse-aid is thinner and less well cast than on '80s units. The door seal is enormously better. The door liner is interchangeable with all Potscrubbers since the series began using this wonderful plastic design. The electronic units require a modification on the soap dispenser.
The sump is slightly more shallow and slightly more susceptible to damage.
The drain system doesn't drip as much.
The motor seal is better, the soft-food 'disposer' is less well designed.
All in all, this is the mature version of a very old design. One which, to the horror of all those who like to consider GE bad quality, lasts for thirty or more years without major repairs.
You make very good points.
Yes, the GE dishwashers you listed under the link (I don't distinguish between Hotpoint and GE as they are the same thing) wash quite adequately.
The plastic cam for the soap door/rinse-aid is thinner and less well cast than on '80s units. The door seal is enormously better. The door liner is interchangeable with all Potscrubbers since the series began using this wonderful plastic design. The electronic units require a modification on the soap dispenser.
The sump is slightly more shallow and slightly more susceptible to damage.
The drain system doesn't drip as much.
The motor seal is better, the soft-food 'disposer' is less well designed.
All in all, this is the mature version of a very old design. One which, to the horror of all those who like to consider GE bad quality, lasts for thirty or more years without major repairs.
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