My dishwasher's pump is rated 60w.
Most powerful motor
- Thread starter Chetlaham
- Start date
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My dishwasher's pump is rated 60w.
I conclude that they did better because I have used both
And know it to be fact.
And know it to be fact.
*rolls eyes*
Do I have to start this all over again?
http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?64218
Thread 64218 from 2016, reply #26 and onwards. Everyone who still says these can't clean is just plain wrong.
Do I have to start this all over again?
http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?64218
Thread 64218 from 2016, reply #26 and onwards. Everyone who still says these can't clean is just plain wrong.
Henrik,
We will never agree on our definition of what constitutes good cleaning.
It's cool, though. I was one of the very few people in Munich to have air-conditioning. All my friends were appalled about it, just appalled. I was destroying the earth, etc. Until we'd hit one of those spells when it would be 40C at 98% humidity and barely cool off to 39C at night.
Then, they'd all come over and crash at my place....
We will never agree on our definition of what constitutes good cleaning.
It's cool, though. I was one of the very few people in Munich to have air-conditioning. All my friends were appalled about it, just appalled. I was destroying the earth, etc. Until we'd hit one of those spells when it would be 40C at 98% humidity and barely cool off to 39C at night.
Then, they'd all come over and crash at my place....
"We will never agree on our definition of what constitutes good cleaning."
Uhhhh........clean is clean. Or it's not.
It's a 0 or a 1.
There's plenty of evidence out there, on this forum included, of plenty of modern machines getting absolutely nasty dishes, fully clean. "1" clean.
Wether it's with a filter or a grinder. 50 watts or 120 watts.
Now if you want to disagree on "how" that occurs and the methods the machine uses, fine.
But anything else is pure, emotional, irrational, and just being oppositionalist.
It's this blatant disregard for imperial evidence that we are where we are as a nation.
I can't believe this just keeps going in circles to no end, no matter how much evidence is provided.
Uhhhh........clean is clean. Or it's not.
It's a 0 or a 1.
There's plenty of evidence out there, on this forum included, of plenty of modern machines getting absolutely nasty dishes, fully clean. "1" clean.
Wether it's with a filter or a grinder. 50 watts or 120 watts.
Now if you want to disagree on "how" that occurs and the methods the machine uses, fine.
But anything else is pure, emotional, irrational, and just being oppositionalist.
It's this blatant disregard for imperial evidence that we are where we are as a nation.
I can't believe this just keeps going in circles to no end, no matter how much evidence is provided.
I said 'good cleaning'
This was, admittedly not quite as precise as it should have been.
So - here's try number two:
A modern low-energy, low-water dishwasher, with the very softest water and the very best detergent, running on the very most advanced soil-sensing algorithms and permitted to work for as long as necessary will clean as well as a late 1970's or early 1980's GE Potscrubber using 145F soft water, 11.8%phosphate detergent, enzymes, bleach and set to 'potscrubber' and 'heat water'.
There. That is a more accurate description of my recent experience with both technologies.
Just - The 1984 GE will do it in less than an hour. The Miele took over FOUR HOURS.
Do you seriously want to pretend that that Miele (which is the best of the current machines) will still be working in 2050? Seriously?
Oh, and while we're at it - the GE will have washed FOUR loads in the time the Miele needed to do the same, admittedly great job, for ONE.
My first graduate work was in IT - I'm a very big advocate and user of the most cutting edge logic I can find. It's wonderful what we can do with little water and energy. Great! BUT - it's a trade off. The less water, the more time and better filtering (including the Whirlpool breakthrough in passive tub design).
The less heat, the more time and the more need for better detergent design.
This was, admittedly not quite as precise as it should have been.
So - here's try number two:
A modern low-energy, low-water dishwasher, with the very softest water and the very best detergent, running on the very most advanced soil-sensing algorithms and permitted to work for as long as necessary will clean as well as a late 1970's or early 1980's GE Potscrubber using 145F soft water, 11.8%phosphate detergent, enzymes, bleach and set to 'potscrubber' and 'heat water'.
There. That is a more accurate description of my recent experience with both technologies.
Just - The 1984 GE will do it in less than an hour. The Miele took over FOUR HOURS.
Do you seriously want to pretend that that Miele (which is the best of the current machines) will still be working in 2050? Seriously?
Oh, and while we're at it - the GE will have washed FOUR loads in the time the Miele needed to do the same, admittedly great job, for ONE.
My first graduate work was in IT - I'm a very big advocate and user of the most cutting edge logic I can find. It's wonderful what we can do with little water and energy. Great! BUT - it's a trade off. The less water, the more time and better filtering (including the Whirlpool breakthrough in passive tub design).
The less heat, the more time and the more need for better detergent design.
The GE will NOT be working in 2050 either.
I'm not going to dispute the time difference.
But both designs, old and new, get dishes just as clean.
However, one needs phosphates to do the job right.
The newer ones do not.
I'm not going to dispute the time difference.
But both designs, old and new, get dishes just as clean.
However, one needs phosphates to do the job right.
The newer ones do not.
Of course not,
But that Twenty Eight Hundred is sitting right there under the counter whirling away right now - and it's 33 years old and still going strong.
That's the point.
As to the phosphates - actually, the GE does just as well as the Miele with the same top of the line phosphate free detergents.
I just use TSP because it isn't bad for the environment and it gets dishes clean.
I'm overjoyed that current dishwashers clean, once again. There was a period of about 15 years in there where new dishwashers and phosphate free detergents together equaled filthy dishes. Doesn't change the fact that they take forever to do the job. At least four times as long. And, they have tiny lifespans, measured in months not decades.
That's just plain unacceptable.
But that Twenty Eight Hundred is sitting right there under the counter whirling away right now - and it's 33 years old and still going strong.
That's the point.
As to the phosphates - actually, the GE does just as well as the Miele with the same top of the line phosphate free detergents.
I just use TSP because it isn't bad for the environment and it gets dishes clean.
I'm overjoyed that current dishwashers clean, once again. There was a period of about 15 years in there where new dishwashers and phosphate free detergents together equaled filthy dishes. Doesn't change the fact that they take forever to do the job. At least four times as long. And, they have tiny lifespans, measured in months not decades.
That's just plain unacceptable.
Longevity
This is one area that have never sat right with me. I figure what ever environmental savings are produced by these machines are offset by the fact you need to buy a new one every 5 years.
In regard to the 2,800; in the 1980s GE was able to get a dishwasher made out of practically nothing to last 30 years.
This is one area that have never sat right with me. I figure what ever environmental savings are produced by these machines are offset by the fact you need to buy a new one every 5 years.
In regard to the 2,800; in the 1980s GE was able to get a dishwasher made out of practically nothing to last 30 years.
I've never really understood the complaints people seem to have about cycle times. I bought the WP 920 dishwasher I have now to replace and relieve my PowerClean from duty, and I love that machine with all my heart, especially after the work and time I put into restoring it to its now modern-looking condition. My number 1 reason for that decision was because the PC just doesn't run long enough. It is a fantastic machine still, but with a 12 minute main wash, there just isn't enough time for any modern detergent to work at soaking and breaking down dried or cooked on soils. That's not to say that it's modern detergents that are at fault, as many high-end formulas are stronger and more effective than what could be found on a shelf 10-15 years ago, BUT they are designed to work with lower quantities of water and with lower temperatures over a longer period of time. Each cycle in my new machine is minimum 2:32 and maximum 3:33, and yet even to this day, I'll start the machine, go about my day, and notice that it's already finished sooner than I expected it to be, and I wonder if that was long enough! Of course, every load comes out sparkling, but it doesn't bother me at all if it took the maximum amount of time to finish. I could use the 1-Hour Wash cycle and would still see great results, but I'd also be using 7-8 gallons of water and the detergent would only see that 12-15 minute long window to do its work, and that, to me, is a waste just being thrown down the drain, especially considering that I'd rather not buy cheap knock off detergents to etch my glassware and wear out my motor seals.
Hey Keven,
I'm curious about a Miele taking 4 hours to get stuff clean? Is that in the US on 120v? I had 15 people over for lunch on Easter Sunday and my 5000 series Miele was running the Sensor Cycle with turbo selected in an hour per load including 15 mins drying. I put greasey plates saucespans and roasting pans in and all popped out clean in about an hour.
The only way I can push the run time on mine out that far is if I use the eco cycle. Without turbo selected the sensor auto cycle runs to 1:30 to 2:05 depending on the soil level.
I do agree that it's unlikely any modern dishwasher will be running in 50 years. Mums Miele got to 14 years before the main pump seal failed and it became uneconomical to repair.
Cheers
Nathan.
I'm curious about a Miele taking 4 hours to get stuff clean? Is that in the US on 120v? I had 15 people over for lunch on Easter Sunday and my 5000 series Miele was running the Sensor Cycle with turbo selected in an hour per load including 15 mins drying. I put greasey plates saucespans and roasting pans in and all popped out clean in about an hour.
The only way I can push the run time on mine out that far is if I use the eco cycle. Without turbo selected the sensor auto cycle runs to 1:30 to 2:05 depending on the soil level.
I do agree that it's unlikely any modern dishwasher will be running in 50 years. Mums Miele got to 14 years before the main pump seal failed and it became uneconomical to repair.
Cheers
Nathan.
Nathan,
Sadly, yes US current. And yes, four hours.
Sadly, yes US current. And yes, four hours.
I'm not sure we are talking all about the same thing.
My Miele dishwasher is a design from 2008. I do not have the newer/newest feature ("turbo") which basically means "I'm not as interested in saving water/energy as in saving time". Nor do I have the newest "save all water/energy you can but run for 4 hours". But I believe the pumps, electronics and programing is vastly the same, just a few tweaks.
In any case, in my machine, the majority of programs are *very* temperature dependent. I can tell that because it's easy to check how long the program took (it's the default time for the next run until the software adjusts it), and, to make things more "interesting", my kitchen is far enough away from the water heater, which allows for water in the pipes to cool down. So, when people are using hot water, or the weather is warmer etc, you see a variation to the typical cycles I use from one hour and forty five minutes to two hours and ten minutes. Vast majority of the times it's about 1:50.
The previous machine (a Bosch from 1999) used to take a bit less in this house, and almost 20 minutes less in the previous apartment, where the machine was essentially just a few feet from the water heater (utility room in the basement right under the kitchen.)
Cleaning was comparable for the most part. What I find is that the Bosch topped up at some point, say, if you leave a crusty lasagna pan out for 4 days and try to run the pots&pans, it might come out still with some stuff stuck on. It seems to me that the Miele tends to clean those much better, particularly if you select the cheese or starch cycle. Still in about 2 hours.
When I had a GE PotScrubber in the mid 90's (the first model that came up with a sensor wash), sure, if you turned off the heated dry, you'd get dishes ready in 45 minutes. But if you turned on heated dry, it would still take 80 to 90 minutes and it would not get cleaner, because it would take over 30 minutes just drying, not cleaning like the Miele/Bosch, which only take about 10-15 minutes "drying" by condensation.
And sure, the GE *could* clean the lasagna pan if it was there for the meal, but if it had been on the countertop for 4 days, forget about it. The GE was highly detergent dependent, if you had a good detergent with plenty of hot water (my heater was set at 140F in summer, 150F in winter, and screw what people think, we did not have kids, elderly or diabetic/sick people in the home we used hot water). If you got the powdered Palmolive Ultra (concentrated with enzymes and perborate) it was wonderful at cleaning, you could get by with Cascade, Electrasol or All, but if you tried a gel detergent, or a cheap powder, the cleaning power would drop a lot.
My Miele also has a cycle (can't remember now the name, possibly Energy Saver) which is designed to be used with incoming water at the very least 120F, and instead of using the sensors to adjust the cycle, it does a cycle that is very much mimicking the old American dishwashers: pre-wash, I forget if it's one or two intermediate pre-rinses, then a main wash followed by I think 3 rinses. That takes about 45-60 minutes and in my opinion cleans just as well as the GE and others did, which is to say, dishes that were recently used (less than a day) come out clean with some dishes not so well washed -- just like I used to have back then. I've used this cycle if I'm more in a hurry than interested in the whole load being uniformity clean, I can always run the 3-4 dishes that were not perfect in the next cycle, which is usually why I would do that. Otherwise, I tend to choose a cycle I know will clean everything so I do not have to inspect all dishes during unloading.
That all having been said, yes, I do believe that some new machines there take over 2 and half hours to clean. I was under the impression that for the vast majority of them, the normal cycle was the one to blame and cycles which will use more energy and water anyway would take less time, it's just that people have almost a fetish for using the normal cycle even though things are dirtier than that.
This is the first time however, that I hear that people think that older machines cleaned better. They were faster, but almost everyone that I know who got a new machine recently has been more satisfied with the cleaning than they were before.
I will believe Keven's word that his GE is cleaning the same as the Miele because my experience is that water quality makes a big difference, I've had machines that were wonderful and people here hated and I've had machines I hated with a passion and people here love. But my experience has been that the longer cycles with enzyme detergents clean much better than the previous processes.
The other thing I'd like to say is that I do not think older machines were better made. Just looking at the insides of some machines you can tell that some had careful people assembling superior components and some have sharp edges where wire harnesses are passing thru or near, some have materials that wear out more quickly etc.
What we have *seen* however, is that machines whose design only last a few (15 or less) years tend to retire quickly, because you can't find new parts.
I do not believe for a second that GE dishwashers were high quality or built like tanks. The best thing the last GE dw I had had inside was a motor made by Siemens, which was on the quiet side. But previous models did not have that motor if I remember correctly.
So, why are those machines still working 30 years later? Because the basic design has not changed for quite a long time. A machine that was built in 1980s still used essentially the same pump as a machine built in 1997 (or it was interchangeable). So you still can find parts, but now that GE started using a different design, you might have trouble fixing machines.
It's the same thing with water valves, or drain hoses etc, that have been the same, or the material has changed but the sizes are so standard that you can still exchange parts that broke.
Same thing with washers, if the drain hose or water valves break, it might be an easy fix even the the machines are from 1945. If, however, the part is some specialized seal, or tub bellows or door boot, you might be out of luck until we have technology to scan the old part and "print" a new one.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
My Miele dishwasher is a design from 2008. I do not have the newer/newest feature ("turbo") which basically means "I'm not as interested in saving water/energy as in saving time". Nor do I have the newest "save all water/energy you can but run for 4 hours". But I believe the pumps, electronics and programing is vastly the same, just a few tweaks.
In any case, in my machine, the majority of programs are *very* temperature dependent. I can tell that because it's easy to check how long the program took (it's the default time for the next run until the software adjusts it), and, to make things more "interesting", my kitchen is far enough away from the water heater, which allows for water in the pipes to cool down. So, when people are using hot water, or the weather is warmer etc, you see a variation to the typical cycles I use from one hour and forty five minutes to two hours and ten minutes. Vast majority of the times it's about 1:50.
The previous machine (a Bosch from 1999) used to take a bit less in this house, and almost 20 minutes less in the previous apartment, where the machine was essentially just a few feet from the water heater (utility room in the basement right under the kitchen.)
Cleaning was comparable for the most part. What I find is that the Bosch topped up at some point, say, if you leave a crusty lasagna pan out for 4 days and try to run the pots&pans, it might come out still with some stuff stuck on. It seems to me that the Miele tends to clean those much better, particularly if you select the cheese or starch cycle. Still in about 2 hours.
When I had a GE PotScrubber in the mid 90's (the first model that came up with a sensor wash), sure, if you turned off the heated dry, you'd get dishes ready in 45 minutes. But if you turned on heated dry, it would still take 80 to 90 minutes and it would not get cleaner, because it would take over 30 minutes just drying, not cleaning like the Miele/Bosch, which only take about 10-15 minutes "drying" by condensation.
And sure, the GE *could* clean the lasagna pan if it was there for the meal, but if it had been on the countertop for 4 days, forget about it. The GE was highly detergent dependent, if you had a good detergent with plenty of hot water (my heater was set at 140F in summer, 150F in winter, and screw what people think, we did not have kids, elderly or diabetic/sick people in the home we used hot water). If you got the powdered Palmolive Ultra (concentrated with enzymes and perborate) it was wonderful at cleaning, you could get by with Cascade, Electrasol or All, but if you tried a gel detergent, or a cheap powder, the cleaning power would drop a lot.
My Miele also has a cycle (can't remember now the name, possibly Energy Saver) which is designed to be used with incoming water at the very least 120F, and instead of using the sensors to adjust the cycle, it does a cycle that is very much mimicking the old American dishwashers: pre-wash, I forget if it's one or two intermediate pre-rinses, then a main wash followed by I think 3 rinses. That takes about 45-60 minutes and in my opinion cleans just as well as the GE and others did, which is to say, dishes that were recently used (less than a day) come out clean with some dishes not so well washed -- just like I used to have back then. I've used this cycle if I'm more in a hurry than interested in the whole load being uniformity clean, I can always run the 3-4 dishes that were not perfect in the next cycle, which is usually why I would do that. Otherwise, I tend to choose a cycle I know will clean everything so I do not have to inspect all dishes during unloading.
That all having been said, yes, I do believe that some new machines there take over 2 and half hours to clean. I was under the impression that for the vast majority of them, the normal cycle was the one to blame and cycles which will use more energy and water anyway would take less time, it's just that people have almost a fetish for using the normal cycle even though things are dirtier than that.
This is the first time however, that I hear that people think that older machines cleaned better. They were faster, but almost everyone that I know who got a new machine recently has been more satisfied with the cleaning than they were before.
I will believe Keven's word that his GE is cleaning the same as the Miele because my experience is that water quality makes a big difference, I've had machines that were wonderful and people here hated and I've had machines I hated with a passion and people here love. But my experience has been that the longer cycles with enzyme detergents clean much better than the previous processes.
The other thing I'd like to say is that I do not think older machines were better made. Just looking at the insides of some machines you can tell that some had careful people assembling superior components and some have sharp edges where wire harnesses are passing thru or near, some have materials that wear out more quickly etc.
What we have *seen* however, is that machines whose design only last a few (15 or less) years tend to retire quickly, because you can't find new parts.
I do not believe for a second that GE dishwashers were high quality or built like tanks. The best thing the last GE dw I had had inside was a motor made by Siemens, which was on the quiet side. But previous models did not have that motor if I remember correctly.
So, why are those machines still working 30 years later? Because the basic design has not changed for quite a long time. A machine that was built in 1980s still used essentially the same pump as a machine built in 1997 (or it was interchangeable). So you still can find parts, but now that GE started using a different design, you might have trouble fixing machines.
It's the same thing with water valves, or drain hoses etc, that have been the same, or the material has changed but the sizes are so standard that you can still exchange parts that broke.
Same thing with washers, if the drain hose or water valves break, it might be an easy fix even the the machines are from 1945. If, however, the part is some specialized seal, or tub bellows or door boot, you might be out of luck until we have technology to scan the old part and "print" a new one.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
"I do not believe for a second that GE dishwashers were high quality or built like tanks"
While they were not physically built like tanks, longevity and warranty (defect) wise they surpassed pretty much any other design, including Hobart Kitchen-aids. There are thousands of Apartment complexes in and outside my state that have the original mid 80s Perma-Tuff or porcelain-on-steal Hotpoints still chugging along. I've seen some beet up, and I mean really beat up, heavily used and abused GEs in rental units with rusted racks and brown interiors yet with not a drop of water around the pump housing and all other major components still functioning. Mind you the sump filled up with just about every foreign object imaginable including glass, plastic, can rings, and other stuff Id rather not say on here. In fact half the time these DW are junked its because the unit is being renovated so it doesn't come across as "outdated" to new renters. About the worst that happens with these are the detergent spring tab breaks preventing the soap door from staying closed.
Granted the 80s and 90s permatuffs had a flaw in which the heater kept running the whole time during the mainwash regardless of temperature leading to premature failure when the incoming water was over 140*F; the late 90s to 2000s machines leaked like no tomorrow around the drain solenoids; and the Plastisol lined machines were basically rust puffs (term I've coined) that rusted out in 5 years no questions asked. But putting those black eyes aside, the GE dishwashers that were sold between 1983 and 1996 outlasted and are outlasting nearly every other brand sold at that time. Not to mention they could take a ding in transit without becoming instantly unusable.
"So, why are those machines still working 30 years later? Because the basic design has not changed for quite a long time. A machine that was built in 1980s still used essentially the same pump as a machine built in 1997 (or it was interchangeable). So you still can find parts, but now that GE started using a different design, you might have trouble fixing machines."
I disagree. Parts are plentiful for Maytag, Whirlpool and even D&M back in the day, but tell me how many of these machines can or have held up to for so long under so much abuse? The truth is in the 70s GE finally realized they were making the worst dishwasher on the market and finally decided to make a low cost machine without any strings attached.
While they were not physically built like tanks, longevity and warranty (defect) wise they surpassed pretty much any other design, including Hobart Kitchen-aids. There are thousands of Apartment complexes in and outside my state that have the original mid 80s Perma-Tuff or porcelain-on-steal Hotpoints still chugging along. I've seen some beet up, and I mean really beat up, heavily used and abused GEs in rental units with rusted racks and brown interiors yet with not a drop of water around the pump housing and all other major components still functioning. Mind you the sump filled up with just about every foreign object imaginable including glass, plastic, can rings, and other stuff Id rather not say on here. In fact half the time these DW are junked its because the unit is being renovated so it doesn't come across as "outdated" to new renters. About the worst that happens with these are the detergent spring tab breaks preventing the soap door from staying closed.
Granted the 80s and 90s permatuffs had a flaw in which the heater kept running the whole time during the mainwash regardless of temperature leading to premature failure when the incoming water was over 140*F; the late 90s to 2000s machines leaked like no tomorrow around the drain solenoids; and the Plastisol lined machines were basically rust puffs (term I've coined) that rusted out in 5 years no questions asked. But putting those black eyes aside, the GE dishwashers that were sold between 1983 and 1996 outlasted and are outlasting nearly every other brand sold at that time. Not to mention they could take a ding in transit without becoming instantly unusable.
"So, why are those machines still working 30 years later? Because the basic design has not changed for quite a long time. A machine that was built in 1980s still used essentially the same pump as a machine built in 1997 (or it was interchangeable). So you still can find parts, but now that GE started using a different design, you might have trouble fixing machines."
I disagree. Parts are plentiful for Maytag, Whirlpool and even D&M back in the day, but tell me how many of these machines can or have held up to for so long under so much abuse? The truth is in the 70s GE finally realized they were making the worst dishwasher on the market and finally decided to make a low cost machine without any strings attached.
It's not that simple
I remember reading the CR review which rated the GE Potscrubber Twenty-Eight Hundred HIGHER than the KitchenAid. Read it several weeks late, only one branch library carried it in Munich.
Was shocked.
Not as shocked as the reviewers were, though!
It's always just been a meme that GE built sh-t quality.
That Maytag Washers were built like a tank, but washed, so-so.
That KitchenAid dishwashers were the best, period - even though I couldn't tell you how many things I had to wash twice/thrice until I figured out how to cope with the pickier than one could ever believe if one hadn't done it loading patterns they demanded.
And so on.
And yet - that multi-orbital arm with a self-flushing filter that actually cleaned itself and that top spray arm (the 'useless' one) that never left yibblets....
Ack and gack all you like, they're easy to fix, they run forever despite being 'cheap' and they cleaned and clean to compete with everything on the market today.
The only other vintage dishwasher which deserves to be spoken of in the same breath are the Maytags of the 'load 'em however you feel like' era.
Indestructible and cleaned, cleaned, cleaned.
I remember reading the CR review which rated the GE Potscrubber Twenty-Eight Hundred HIGHER than the KitchenAid. Read it several weeks late, only one branch library carried it in Munich.
Was shocked.
Not as shocked as the reviewers were, though!
It's always just been a meme that GE built sh-t quality.
That Maytag Washers were built like a tank, but washed, so-so.
That KitchenAid dishwashers were the best, period - even though I couldn't tell you how many things I had to wash twice/thrice until I figured out how to cope with the pickier than one could ever believe if one hadn't done it loading patterns they demanded.
And so on.
And yet - that multi-orbital arm with a self-flushing filter that actually cleaned itself and that top spray arm (the 'useless' one) that never left yibblets....
Ack and gack all you like, they're easy to fix, they run forever despite being 'cheap' and they cleaned and clean to compete with everything on the market today.
The only other vintage dishwasher which deserves to be spoken of in the same breath are the Maytags of the 'load 'em however you feel like' era.
Indestructible and cleaned, cleaned, cleaned.
GE quality
I think it was the late 90s and so on that trashed GE's reputation- when they just stopped caring. Their ovens, washer, dryers and so on have always been really good and dependable performers.
I think it was the late 90s and so on that trashed GE's reputation- when they just stopped caring. Their ovens, washer, dryers and so on have always been really good and dependable performers.
that's quite true
Most younger members around here only know GE from the Jack Welch rape and plunder, destroy, destroy, destroy days.
Not, that GE wasn't always profit-oriented.
Just, CR did not give the Twenty-Eight Hundred that superior rating over KitchenAid because they wanted to, they did not. Most clearly did not and said so, plainly.
We all have our stereotypes, our likes and dislikes. I HATE WCI Frigidaire with a boundless passion, to name but one.
Still, how well dishwashers clean, the amount of time they take to do so, the water and energy they need - these things are all easily documented. What comes then is purely personal choice.
Most younger members around here only know GE from the Jack Welch rape and plunder, destroy, destroy, destroy days.
Not, that GE wasn't always profit-oriented.
Just, CR did not give the Twenty-Eight Hundred that superior rating over KitchenAid because they wanted to, they did not. Most clearly did not and said so, plainly.
We all have our stereotypes, our likes and dislikes. I HATE WCI Frigidaire with a boundless passion, to name but one.
Still, how well dishwashers clean, the amount of time they take to do so, the water and energy they need - these things are all easily documented. What comes then is purely personal choice.
Well documented
Exactly. I never claimed the GEs didn't clean well. I just HIGHLY doubt you threw something like in the thread I posted at it.
This cleaning power is well documented. You disputed it. You are wrong.
Never said likeing the GE more was a problem. But again, I doubt it cleans better...
Exactly. I never claimed the GEs didn't clean well. I just HIGHLY doubt you threw something like in the thread I posted at it.
This cleaning power is well documented. You disputed it. You are wrong.
Never said likeing the GE more was a problem. But again, I doubt it cleans better...
Have you used a 2800? Back in the day Potscrubbers could strip the enamel off bake-ware with so to speak, and that passive filtration did its job very well. Ditto for the multi orbital wash arm which out did the over rated whirly bird and most other static wash arms.
