vaclover
New member
Is there any way to start a motor with burnt starting windings?maybe a circuit with a capacitor and relay in it?if there is please let me know
motor with burnt start windings
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kb0nes
Well-known member
And if its a hermetic compressor you can't even wrap a rope around the pulley and pull 
Ultimately I think Travis is correct. The manufacturer would have used the simpler work-around instead of an additional winding if it would work, they don't like adding expense when its not needed!
It the starter winding measuring as open?
Ultimately I think Travis is correct. The manufacturer would have used the simpler work-around instead of an additional winding if it would work, they don't like adding expense when its not needed!
It the starter winding measuring as open?
vaclover
New member
I've had the fridge field coils rewound...
Luckily there's some kind of screw on cap on that fridge compressor and you can easily acces the field coils, I've had that rewound, but didn't fit the compressor yet.they call it a semi hermetically sealed compressor.this is an old easy washing motor I'm struggling with, I don't know if it even have start windings its 220volts sometimes it starts sometimes it just sit and humms.
Luckily there's some kind of screw on cap on that fridge compressor and you can easily acces the field coils, I've had that rewound, but didn't fit the compressor yet.they call it a semi hermetically sealed compressor.this is an old easy washing motor I'm struggling with, I don't know if it even have start windings its 220volts sometimes it starts sometimes it just sit and humms.
vaclover
New member
not really a cap..
Its not a cap but its like the top of the compressor screws open.the motor is not suspended from springs like in a newer compressor!and the field coils are fitted with 4 bolts.but now I don't know if I will manage to refill it because the gas on the rating plate is f12!I've read that f12 are the same as R134.but don't know!as for the washing machine motor maybe its starting to burn?
Its not a cap but its like the top of the compressor screws open.the motor is not suspended from springs like in a newer compressor!and the field coils are fitted with 4 bolts.but now I don't know if I will manage to refill it because the gas on the rating plate is f12!I've read that f12 are the same as R134.but don't know!as for the washing machine motor maybe its starting to burn?
vaclover
New member
lol..
But wouldn't it be nice if I had a washing machine starting with a rope??lol imagine these rope gets tangled in the pulleys!
But wouldn't it be nice if I had a washing machine starting with a rope??lol imagine these rope gets tangled in the pulleys!
cfz2882
Well-known member
that old washer motor is likely a "split phase"type with a centrifugal switch to disengage the start winding once motor is at run speed-that switch may need cleaning/repair/adjustment if motor sometimes fails to start.
vaclover
New member
that switch..
Is it inside the motor somewhere?because you can see the motor shaft at the back?
Is it inside the motor somewhere?because you can see the motor shaft at the back?
epixstar128
New member
Might be able to start with a large hammer send power to run windings and just start hitting it with a hammer may work
epixstar128
New member
F12 is the same as r 12 not r134a
davetranter
Well-known member
Induction motor start
In my experience, I've found three systems for starting induction motors in washing machines this side of the 'pond' (220-240V territory).
1 - (now very rare, because expensive) Centrifugal switch inside motor. These can stick, either closed, in which case there is smoke and/or flames, or open, in which case the motor sits and hums (and, if left powered for a while, there is then smoke and/or flames, as the impedance of the stalled motor fails to limit the current in the Run Winding to a tolerable value)
2 - (seen in Hotpoint twin-tubs) an external 'Start Relay'. This is a current-operated device, the coil of which is connected in series with the Run Winding, which is designed 'pull in' at the 'stalled current' of the Run Winding, (thus connecting the Start Winding, too) and release as the motor accelerates and the current falls. Unfortunately, these are notoriously unreliable (but cheap for the manufacturer), the usual failure mode being contact welding (due to the slow release) with consequent burnout of the motor Start Winding.
3 - Permanent capacitor. Used on the Low Speed Windings of FL induction motor washers like mine. The motor uses two identical windings, each of which functions as the Start Winding for the other, providing direction reversal through a single c/o contact.
In my (limited) experience, Refrigerator start 'relays' are now based on a PTC Thermistor, no actual switching taking place.
Hope this helps or is of interest.
All best
Dave T
In my experience, I've found three systems for starting induction motors in washing machines this side of the 'pond' (220-240V territory).
1 - (now very rare, because expensive) Centrifugal switch inside motor. These can stick, either closed, in which case there is smoke and/or flames, or open, in which case the motor sits and hums (and, if left powered for a while, there is then smoke and/or flames, as the impedance of the stalled motor fails to limit the current in the Run Winding to a tolerable value)
2 - (seen in Hotpoint twin-tubs) an external 'Start Relay'. This is a current-operated device, the coil of which is connected in series with the Run Winding, which is designed 'pull in' at the 'stalled current' of the Run Winding, (thus connecting the Start Winding, too) and release as the motor accelerates and the current falls. Unfortunately, these are notoriously unreliable (but cheap for the manufacturer), the usual failure mode being contact welding (due to the slow release) with consequent burnout of the motor Start Winding.
3 - Permanent capacitor. Used on the Low Speed Windings of FL induction motor washers like mine. The motor uses two identical windings, each of which functions as the Start Winding for the other, providing direction reversal through a single c/o contact.
In my (limited) experience, Refrigerator start 'relays' are now based on a PTC Thermistor, no actual switching taking place.
Hope this helps or is of interest.
All best
Dave T
vaclover
New member
thanks dave...
It was interesting indeed to know of all the ways a motor can be started.someone said about a centrifugal switch?I think it may be that switch because now that I think of it when it worked right and I stopped the motor it sounded almost like a relay kicking out?now there's no clicking when switched on or off?it just may be that switch.the washer was my great grandmothers it survived a house fire and was in storage for almost 40 years.when I switched it on only the spinner was stuck.now I know these old things were made to last but I can't really expect it to last forever?and maybe its just the switch that needs adjustment!?thanks everyone!!
It was interesting indeed to know of all the ways a motor can be started.someone said about a centrifugal switch?I think it may be that switch because now that I think of it when it worked right and I stopped the motor it sounded almost like a relay kicking out?now there's no clicking when switched on or off?it just may be that switch.the washer was my great grandmothers it survived a house fire and was in storage for almost 40 years.when I switched it on only the spinner was stuck.now I know these old things were made to last but I can't really expect it to last forever?and maybe its just the switch that needs adjustment!?thanks everyone!!
davetranter
Well-known member
Not 'all the ways'
As Kb0nes said (reply#2) wrapping a rope around the pulley and pulling WILL start a single-phase induction motor without Start Winding.... But it may not exactly be convenient ;-) You can also get to choose the running direction that way, too....
All best
Dave T
As Kb0nes said (reply#2) wrapping a rope around the pulley and pulling WILL start a single-phase induction motor without Start Winding.... But it may not exactly be convenient ;-) You can also get to choose the running direction that way, too....
All best
Dave T
epixstar128
New member
I If there is any electrical diagram please snap a picture and post it on here
epixstar128
New member
Or just pictures of the compressor more pictures the better
vaclover
New member
epix...
Do you want pics of the fridge compressor or do you want pics of the washing machine motor?I don't have a wiring diagram for either of them butthe compressor must be very old its a solid cast iron thing it weighs a lot!the top screws open and the bottom opens with bolts but you can't get to the windings from the bottom.if you want pics of the compressor I can post it here.maybe that was the problem with that motor too?only a centrifugal switch stuck open?but I think its unlikely because it had a relay and overload.
Do you want pics of the fridge compressor or do you want pics of the washing machine motor?I don't have a wiring diagram for either of them butthe compressor must be very old its a solid cast iron thing it weighs a lot!the top screws open and the bottom opens with bolts but you can't get to the windings from the bottom.if you want pics of the compressor I can post it here.maybe that was the problem with that motor too?only a centrifugal switch stuck open?but I think its unlikely because it had a relay and overload.
epixstar128
New member
Pics of everthing i will help if i can worked on refrigeration systems for a living
vaclover
New member
epix...
Unfortunately I didn't take photos with the compressor open but here's how the compressor looks like...and maybe if you can help me the gas on the rating plate was f12 what type of gas can I put in there?did this compressor maybe had a centrifugal switch that was stuck open?if I must take a guess the compressor weights around 10 to 15 kgs.I opened the underside and the mechanicals looks brand new!!no play or wear and tear!the person I've got it from bought it in the 50's second hand!
Unfortunately I didn't take photos with the compressor open but here's how the compressor looks like...and maybe if you can help me the gas on the rating plate was f12 what type of gas can I put in there?did this compressor maybe had a centrifugal switch that was stuck open?if I must take a guess the compressor weights around 10 to 15 kgs.I opened the underside and the mechanicals looks brand new!!no play or wear and tear!the person I've got it from bought it in the 50's second hand!
vaclover
New member
....
I still want to paint it but I have to clean the oil from that base first.and thers no valve to recharge it?if they are going to take that recharge things off its gonna blow all the new gas out?or if the vacuum it its gona suck all the air back in?maybe I just don't know quite well about these things?I find it very interesting how a fridge works and would also like to learn to regas it and stuff.did you work on absorbtion fridges also?thanks for your reply epix...
I still want to paint it but I have to clean the oil from that base first.and thers no valve to recharge it?if they are going to take that recharge things off its gonna blow all the new gas out?or if the vacuum it its gona suck all the air back in?maybe I just don't know quite well about these things?I find it very interesting how a fridge works and would also like to learn to regas it and stuff.did you work on absorbtion fridges also?thanks for your reply epix...
vaclover
New member
that's...
A 1/8th hp compressor!!imagine the size of the 1hp and bigger?I also want to know the contacts on the inside its inside the oil isnt it like if its in water?making a short or something?
A 1/8th hp compressor!!imagine the size of the 1hp and bigger?I also want to know the contacts on the inside its inside the oil isnt it like if its in water?making a short or something?
You have to add a valve in the pipework to the compressor. The oil will be a non conductive type like they use in transformers. Actually most oil is non conductive, it is best to think of it as like plastic but in liquid form. I've never done a re-gas as I didn't do refrigeration repairs but the standard equipment includes a vacuum pump to suck out the air and old gas.
dj-gabriele
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 1,685
f12 what type of gas can I put in there?
First you should make sure that the lubrificant oils in the compressors can be used with the new gas and second they should have similar working pressures and temperatures.
To retrofit with R134a you have to purge the compressor and system of the old mineral oil as they're not compatible and deep clean everything with an appropriate solvent. Then recharge the POE oil (compatible with R134a) and around 15% less R134a of the original charge of R12. This will work nicely but at a reduced efficency (longer cooling times and increased electric expense!).
A much better replacement is R409a (but still contains HCFC), purge the system of the old R12, recharge with around 15/20% less of R409, check and in case add a little more and you're done! (Mind that pipes will not have to freeze near the compressor!)
It might even work better than with the original refrigerant as it has a much higher heat transfer capacity!
A newer alternative is R-437A, also called Isceon 49plus from Dupont, drop in replacement too, same advice as R409. No need to change oil.
First you should make sure that the lubrificant oils in the compressors can be used with the new gas and second they should have similar working pressures and temperatures.
To retrofit with R134a you have to purge the compressor and system of the old mineral oil as they're not compatible and deep clean everything with an appropriate solvent. Then recharge the POE oil (compatible with R134a) and around 15% less R134a of the original charge of R12. This will work nicely but at a reduced efficency (longer cooling times and increased electric expense!).
A much better replacement is R409a (but still contains HCFC), purge the system of the old R12, recharge with around 15/20% less of R409, check and in case add a little more and you're done! (Mind that pipes will not have to freeze near the compressor!)
It might even work better than with the original refrigerant as it has a much higher heat transfer capacity!
A newer alternative is R-437A, also called Isceon 49plus from Dupont, drop in replacement too, same advice as R409. No need to change oil.
vaclover
New member
thanks...
I was thinking of recharging it with R134a.so I have to literally clean the whole compressor with a solvent?I can't just whipe off the old oil from the components?it needs 10oz of f12 charge. If I need less than that for r134a it won't be tooo expensive to recharge.I'm just worried about the cleaning of the oil.I'm also considering that newer R436b they say I can use it without changing the oil!but then again I have to top up the oil level so I can just as well get new oil.
I was thinking of recharging it with R134a.so I have to literally clean the whole compressor with a solvent?I can't just whipe off the old oil from the components?it needs 10oz of f12 charge. If I need less than that for r134a it won't be tooo expensive to recharge.I'm just worried about the cleaning of the oil.I'm also considering that newer R436b they say I can use it without changing the oil!but then again I have to top up the oil level so I can just as well get new oil.
epixstar128
New member
Just get r 12 and use that one small can is all you need about 40 bucks in tge states
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