My New 'Koh-I-Noor' 2800RPM Spin Dryer

[arbilab]

NP, Limey, hadn't noticed. Ar bi lab is just my initials (RB) followed by lab where I mostly worked. I use it as a screenname because it's never taken.

There's definitely a bunch of 'Frigidaires' with substantial differences. REG and PP have a wash spin on mine, delicate does not.

 

[rolls_rapide]

"Safety Disc"

That would be known as the "spin mat".

 

[launderess]

Spin Mat On My Paki Built Spin Drier

Tore itself into halves within the first week of use.

Not one to be put off by minor details, simply took some flannel yardage one had in the sewing kit and used it instead. Now before anyone wags their finger, extractors have been around longer than those little mats, and until they came upon the scene operators simply took a heavy/thick towel or other material and put it over the load.

What is important is that one pushes the load down into the extractor, and that is isn't over loaded. If this done there is little chance for "rug burns" to materials from being rubbed about at high speed. It is also important to place small items in mesh bags or at least load them first so larger things will cover.

 

[arbilab]

Grandma taught me to pack the spin load so it didn't expand upward. That was 1951. You'd think wisdom would propagate. But if you look where we ended up, maybe not so specially.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Limey, you are absolutely correct about the importance of adequate extraction between water changes in good laundering. According to a textbook in my father's collection, when a wash bath is drained and the load not extracted, as used to be the case for large industrial washers in the last century, fully half of the soil was left in the load which is why several detergent baths were needed and then multiple rinses at high water levels including a sour rinse with an acid added to neutralize the alkalinity of the wash products. When I look at front loaders, I want to know about the spinning between the water changes. Unlike a toploading agitator washer, a front loader does not force water through the fabrics. It saturates them and tumbles them, but it does not force water through them like the fins at the base of an agitator. That is why it is so important to spin as much of the water as possible out of the load before the next rinse. Better front loaders do this. Bendix did this from the start and the lack of a spin between the two deep rinses in a Westinghouse was a shortcoming in my opinion.

I noticed last night when looking at the Laundry Room Forum that Spin X is still selling an extractor. It is $599, but with the extraction capabilities of the Mieles, I don't think it would make much sense to buy it unless it could be proven that it would prolong the life of the machines by slowing down the selected top spin speeds and spinning things in the Spin X. [this post was last edited: 5/29/2011-08:04]

http://www.spin-x.com/

 

[sudsman]

Tom IS the book A guide to Good Laundry Oprations ?

Also a extract could be take the place of a rinse anywhere in the wash formula.
But this was also back when washers actually had enough water in them to do the job right, not just a gallon or 2 . Wash level in this machine was 9" Rinse was 12" There was a extract after each of 3 rinses and final of 900

 

[tomturbomatic]

Hello Mac! Good to see a post from you. Actually the book is Industrial Detergency, edited by William W. Niven, Jr., published in 1955 by Reinhold Publishing Corporation. It deals with methods, materials & equipment. It has chapters on detergent materials, laundry industry, drycleaning, textile processing, foods & beverages, dairy industry, dishwashing, metals industries & general industrial cleaning. It was Daddy's go to book and my treasured source of information. I liked it as a kid because it has pictures of equipment as well as procedures and information about chemicals. It is where I learned about the "hot break" you use where a pH of 11.2 to 11.6 will allow the first suds to safely be above 100F without danger of setting albuminous stains. Each time I take the book off the shelf, I remember where it was in my father's office.

In a table of the washing procedure for a 300 lb load of family white work, I learned that the 5 suds baths were at 6 inches of water in the cylinder which corresponded to 150 gallons of water. The first, at 100F had an extra 1/2 lb of alkali added along with 10 gallons of built soap solution "for the purpose of neutralizing the acidity in the clothes and, to a certain extent, overcoming the hardness properties of some of the metallic salts that may be contained in the clothes." That is where I learned how important the STPP is in removing the anti-perspirant film from textiles. "Perspiration and acid materials from the body may reduce the pH of the clear water solution to 6-7" so it needs the build up in alkalinity. As the washing progresses through each 6 minute bath, the temperature rises from 130F for the second, to 160F for the 3rd, 4th and 5th with declining amounts of built soap solution from 5 to 4 to 3 to finally 1 gallon in the 5th suds to keep the remaining soil in suspension. The last 6 minute bath is at 150F for the bleach. The built soap solution consisted of 110 lbs of 88% high titre tallow soap and 50 to 60 lbs of alkali dissolved in 1000 gallons of water so it did not have to dissolve to begin working.

The 1st 3 rinses are 2 minutes each at 170F and all 5 are with 12 inches of water or 300 gallons. The 4th is at 140F. The 5th is the bluing rinse at 110F for 5 minutes and the sour to pH 5.0 is at 90F for 5 minutes. So much for the efficacy of cold water rinsing. The coldest I use for washing and rinsing is 78-80F.

The procedure has been changed with some steps eliminated with washer extractors, but the principles of laundering are set forth and explained.

The book has a great deal of information about the properties of all of the chemicals used in detergency.

 

[launderess]

Love That Vintage Detergent HandBook

Have been trying to score one, but the costs even on fleaPay are a bit dear pour moi. Good to see another "vintage" soap/detergent book buff here in the group! *LOL*

Extraction between rinses also saves water and cycle time. Commercial (and domestic for that matter), H-Axis washers can give the same rinse results using fewer cycles if extractions take place between each rinse. My older Miele only does one short extraction after the third then a full after the fourth, and of course a series of final spins after the fifth (graduated then full). Newer Miele units only have the three rinses and by all accounts can do just as well. Major complaint seems to be about water levels for these rinses, but that is another matter.

High Titer Soap:

Discussed this in another thread. High titer soaps need temps >130 indeed >140 to wash and rinse well. Otherwise not only is cleaning performance reduced but unrinsed soap will carry over into the sour bath (not good), and also remain giving laundry a residue that will eventually have a whiff, not to mention "tattle-tale grey tint.

High titer soaps are those composed in whole or part of animal fats, thus some of the most common in America at one time. From home made using rendered household fats. Everything from bacon/meat drippings to whatever was left from domestic animal slaughter (for those living on farm), went into this stuff. On a commercial scale it would have been the same thing, especially after Mr. Armour discovered and promoted that nothing should be wasted from his meatpacking business.

Use of high titer soaps was one of the reasons laundry was boiled after being soaked, then hand washed. One needed that high temp water to remove all that soap.

 

[launderess]

Spin-X & The Miele

Don't know about front loaders where the final spin is >1200 rpms, but for my Miele putting items into the spin dryer after being spun at 900rpms does remove a decent amount of water (and detergent residue for that matter), from the wash.

If one is going to line dry things then it's not usually worth the bother, but for machine drying it does knock off some time and thus save energy/money.

 

[sudsman]

Tom I know the book

As I remember it has formulas for family work and hotel and hospital work, That was when we could wash with as much water as we liked and no one scolded us. And our work was CLEAN to the last sock.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Laundress, I don't know if it was my book you were talking about, but it is available on Amazon for as litle as $10.00

 

[limey]

Water Extraction, pH and Corrosion

Two Points.

First to Launderess.
Even with ‘line drying’ I still believe it is advantageous to remove as much water as possible because even if all the contaminants produced during the laundering process have been removed, and I doubt that they are, there are still the chemicals in ‘tap water’ to be considered. The more water you leave to be ‘dried out’ rather than ‘extracted’ the more chemicals you will be leaving in your laundry.

Second to Tomturbomatic.
pH values you are talking of would, in my opinion, corrode the aluminium alloy spiders in modern front load washers in very short order.
The MSDS for ‘Chlorox’, put out by the manufacturer is available at: -
http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/products/msds/bleach/cloroxregularbleach0505_.pdf

and gives the pH as 11.4.
The photograph below shows what one drop of bleach, straight from the bottle (5% solution), did to a previously undamaged area of a spider removed from a Frigidaire machine when left overnight.

 

[tomturbomatic]

David, Two things to keep in mind:

Those pH values were for a commercial laundry formula in a commercial machine. The high pH bath was only the first one and, as the author stated, was fairly quickly pulled down from those high pH levels by the acids in the soil in the fabrics. Successive suds baths were not at that high a pH level. As has been discussed here previously, laundering requires alkalinity, not only to remove the soil from the fabrics, but also to deal with the calcium-magnesium salts that make water hard and also make it impossible for soap to work. The great thing about synthetic detergents was that they could contain the builders that previously had to be added separately to wash water to break it before the soap could be added, but they were and are still very alkaline. Maybe the way to save spiders is to give the clothes more rinsing, but most people don't care about that and are not even aware of the spider until it breaks.

The rinsing sequence was very thorough and included an acidic additive to bring the pH back down which benefitted the machine and the fabrics. If alkalinity or soap remains in fabrics, it can cause yellowing during ironing.

Quality detergents have long contained metasilicates to protect metal parts of washers and dishwashers. If the manufacturer of the detergent is not stinting on the necessary amount of this ingredient, it should work to prevent corrosion. Of course, it might also help if domestic machines used adequate amounts of rinse water to neutralize the alkalinity of the detergents. My mother always gave laundry an extra rinse. Many of the service techs who came to work on our washers remarked about how free of corrosion and mineral buildup our washers were.

 

[limey]

Reply to Tom

Thank you for your comments.
Actually I had a brief mental debate with myself on the best way of describing the spiders: Put ‘domestic’ between ‘modern’ and ‘front’, I decided ‘no’ because those in laundromats also have aluminium alloy spiders. Then there are the various names manufacturers’ put on them, ‘axles’ by Stabler (not really a front loader in my mind) ‘trunnions’ by Speed Queen and ‘flanges’ by LG. I selected ‘spider’ as it appears to be almost universally understood as to what the component actually is. I decided on the wording I used as I do not believe the larger commercial washers, as opposed to those in laundromats, have aluminium alloy spiders (I could be in error).

Now as for being able to ‘rinse away’ all traces of alkalinity. In my opinion very few, if any, modern, domestic front loaders are capable of removing ‘all’.
Just over 18 months ago I dismantled one of our Frigidaire built ‘Kenmore’ machines because of failed seal and bearings. The spider was also quite heavily corroded. This I have detailed in other threads on this site so I will not repeat it here.
The upshot of this was that I purchased a new spider and inner drum assembly, and being the cheapskate that I am, and not wanting to ‘give’ Sears and Frigidaire any more of my pension than I had to, I only renewed the bearings and seal.
Well my efforts lasted a little over 18 months before the seal and bearings failed again, why I do not know. It could be that I received a defective bearing(s) and/or seal; it could be I damaged either or both fitting them, or even a combination. It is also possible that the seal just was not capable of standing up to the environment it was subjected to.
All this is irrelevant to the failure of the machines to thoroughly remove all traces of alkalis, but it does explain how I was able to examine a spider that had been in use for only eighteen months.
A picture of the spider, before it was pressure washed is shown below, note the small white spots, they are aluminium oxide, corrosion products. Other than the grease and oxides of iron due to the bearing/seal failure there was nothing else, on the spider or in the inner drum.
Now since its repair 18 months ago this machine has only had Liquid Tide and no other laundry aid put into it. Why therefore would this corrosion occur? I believe, as I have previously stated, that even after the fastest spin, very small quantities of water will remain in these recesses. In addition to the relatively low linear speed at this radius, the outside lips of the webs are only 1-2mm from the face of the seal. This area is not immersed therefore any flushing/cleaning can only be performed by ‘splash’. Not, in my opinion a very effective way of cleaning this area. The water left behind at the end of the last rinse cycle will contain very small quantities of laundry aids used, in this case, Liquid Tide, the pH of which, as it dries out, will increase until such a time a corrosion occurs. This also explains why this type of failure appears more common in little used domestic machines than in heavily used Laundromat examples.

The photograph in the next post shows the spider after cleaning with a pressure washer. Note the aluminium oxide still firmly adhering to the spider. In addition there are now more spots of corrosion visible, the brown deposits resulting from the bearing/seal failure previously covered some.

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion

Spider shown in post 521458 above after pressure washer cleaning.

 

[launderess]

Oh Lord

It's a holiday weekend, please let us not start *that* dust up again. *LOL*

 

[sudsman]

Exactly what I think too.

He who stir up old shit make big stink!

 

[tomturbomatic]

Sorry.

 

[sudsman]

Tom

Did not mean you at all..

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion

To Launderess and sudsman.
I would ask you to please closely look at the photographs above and tell me what you believe the white spots on the spider to be. Please note that there are similar ‘spots’ on the rear of the hub, which is between the spider and the stainless steel drum. Should you believe that they are anything other than corrosion I will be more than happy to review your thoughts, and also your ideas as to what has caused them. Heck I might even agree with you.
However should you agree that they are corrosion (aluminium oxide) could you please inform me, in a logical, unemotional manner, how they have occurred and why?