Neutral Drain Top Loaders - A Query

[launderess]

Many of my vintage laundry manuals and things one has read elsewhere warned housewives and others doing laundry against (top loading) washing machines that drained water through the wash, what we would call neutral draining on modern machines). Their main gripe was that it would lead to resoiling of the wash as the dirty water was filtered through textiles on it's way out of the wash tub.

While early H-axis washers did exsist in both commercial and domestic settings, the most common for the latter would have been some sort of wringer or mangle to be used for extraction, whilst the former had large spin dryers.

Using a wringer means the laundry is lifted up and out of the dirty water and the filty water removed (it goes back into the tub) taking with it much of the gunk.

Bring this up because last week hauled out the small Whirlpool to do a bit of washing and the neutral draining of that machine just *bugs* me. As it tis one always does two deep rinses but the idea of wash water being pulled down through what should be "clean" laundry just isn't my cup of tea.

From what one has read here in the group there were older top loaders that started to spin nearly soon as the water began to drain. This shoved soapy/dirty water out of the tub instead of through the wash, or no?

 

[qsd-dan]

Uh-Oh

World War 3 is about to ensue with this topic, lol

 

Put me down for spin drains only.

 

[strongenough78]

Well all I can say is I have never had an issue with my clothes getting resoiled when using a neutral drain washer. But when wash water is dirty, isn't it ALL dirty? I wouldn't think that the water below the surface is completely clean. I mean, it's sitting in dirty water anyway to which the dirty water gets pulled through anyway if by neutral drain or spin drain.

 

[mickeyd]

Tis all moot now anyway--they all neutral drain now, except

Given that the filthy laundry is saved for last, most of the washing liquors are relatively clean. One always shudders when our esteemed Launderess refers to lifting the clothes from the tub to the wringer, leaving the filthy water behind. One notices that her esteemed self does this regularly, i.e. the filthy water reference. Only very dirty work clothes from every sort of dirty work, poopy nappies, and manly unmentionables leave the water filthy.

 

So can we all at least agree that whatever is drained, spun, or spin-drained away isn't all that nasty to begin with, most of the time ?

 

Then, no matter how the water leaves the machine, it passes through the clothes. Meditate on this. The Maytags have an outer tub and while the washer is spinning the water out it must pass through the clothes; in WP/KM's, same deal, close inner tub, only nothing is spinning; in solid tubs, the water is hurled through openings around the tub, but alas it must of course pass through the load of laundry.

 

It always seemed to me that the condemnation of neutral draining machines was an advertising gimmick, an invented sales pitch.

 

It is also worth mentioning, that all top-loaders are now perforated, and most of them neutral drain. Now that's a lot of filthy water passing laundry gas, LOL.

 

On a personal note. Since the demise of my WP Convertible, one has keenly envied your mint Harvest Gold version, so perfectly maintained. If you would like to sell it to me for Winter kitchen use, I would love to buy it. Would also pay a fee for all your shipping expertise, and would be at your service in perpetuity. Then you'd have premium space for something else.

 

[bwoods]

I think the idea behind a spin-drain is that much of lint floats, as do soap suds, a spin drain quickly expels these out the tub without filtering them back through clothes.

As far as actual dirt, other than large solids, like sand, dirt is help in suspension by the detergent, so it shouldn't matter either way.

A solid tub spin drain leaves sand, etc. in the bottom of the tub.

GE had the right idea in the filter-flo. A spin-drain, yet perforations in the bottom of the tub to rid of solids. Best of both worlds.

 

[qsd-dan]

<a name="start_42118.620188">The Maytags have an outer tub and while the washer is spinning the water out it must pass through the clothes</a>
 
My concern it the top layer of water where oils and greases float and accumulate. This top layer of water usually goes directly out to the outer tub without touching the clothes at the beginning of a spin.
 
What I like most about spin drains is that it plasters the clothes evenly up against the entire width of the tub. This extracts water better from clothes and provides MUCH better extraction of water/soap/nasty crap from the clothes during a spin spray rinse. With a neutral drain, the clothes bunch up at the bottom of the tub and won't be rinsed out nearly as well during a spin spray rinse.

 

[DADoES]

 
For all the nearly 50 years that my clothes have been run through a belt-drive Whirlpool, then a neutral-drain, direct-drive KitchenAid, then two neutral-drain Fisher & Paykel machines, then a Calypso that literally "filters" all the water through the clothes throughout the entire cycle ... I've never had an issue with smutz left behind.

 

[akronman]

No difference to me

I have WP's and KM's with neutral drain, and Filter Flo's, Maytag, 1-18, and Norge with spin drain. The spinning ones send lots of dirty water up around the top rim that then sprays dirtily back through the clothes at it ramps up and the pump eventually catches up with all that water in the tub. I just can't see that being any different than a neutral drain, not a bit. Any washer will occasionally have a very bad load that needs a second rinse. Maytags always do, the agitation time on rinse is too darn quick.

Also, old belt drive WP/KM go immediately from agitate to neutral drain, no waiting, the water is still pretty decently mixed, whereas the spin ones always have that 30 to 50 second pause, allowing dirt to settle on the clothes. For the life of me, I cannot tell the difference in draining operations. If you used enough detergent and have an operating filter, my laundry can't tell the differrence at all.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Many early machines were solid tub machines and the most practical way to drain the water was to spin it over the top of the tub. Blackstone was an exception. Other machines, like the first Frigidaires and Maytags, had a perforated tub inside a solid tub and these were inside another water container into which the water was spun. These types of tubs were perhaps the worst design for straining water through clothes as reported in testing of the Frigidaire. Given that, one thing about the genuine solid tub washers using the spin drain was that the water just went out over the top of the tub. With most of the newer perforated tubs that do a spin drain within the outer tub, at the high water level, there is some amount of water slopping back over the top of the inner tub and being spun back through the clothes. Poor detergent usage in Filter Flo machines will show up as streaks on clothing. As washers evolved with only one motor, unless a neutral gear was put into the transmission, if the motor was turning some part of the drive train was moving. If Maytag and GE and others had put a neutral gear into their transmissions, they could have successfully drained with the tub remaining stationary, but they did not.

As for the top layer of water going over the top of the tub, that was not necessarily the case which was why some machines like SQ and Frigidaire used an overflow rinse before the drain. If you watch the tub as it begins to rotate, you will see the water form a cone, with the water rising at the edge and sinking in the middle. What sinks against the load is what you would like to have spun over the edge of the tub, but the principles of physics prevent that.

Having said that, the neutral drain was a big reason that WP made machines had to use the spray rinses even after the deep rinse to remove the bubbles, if not film, that settled on the top of the load as the machine drained. Even my KitchenAid washer starts a spray rinse at the beginning of the final spin and repeated it after a minute or so. I never let the machine do a neutral drain when I was using it. It was a simple matter of raising & lowering the lid to cancel the neutral drain and since the first machines of that design did not use a neutral drain, there was no concern about the capabilities of the motor or tranny being overtaxed in that situation.

This draining issue might have been one reason that Bendix and Westinghouse said that the load was lifted as the washer drained.

 

[launderess]

@mickeyd

You know I love you more than my luggage so we can always have a healthy debate. Long as in the end you agree with my view things are fine! *LOL* You see as with all good friendships it is a matter of give and take. I give my friends advice and they take it. *LOL*

Regarding the WP portable, don't know how "perfectly maintained" it is.

Rarely use the thing and when one does run a quick "rinse" to clear out any detergent/FS residue in the pump area, lower the drain hose into a pail to get out as much excess water as possible, the roll the thing back into it's spot. The lint filter is cleaned, tub and inside the lid wiped down with paper towels, then the lid left open for a day or two for the thing to air dry. Once all that is done lid is closed, a tablecloth cover goes over and the washer sits as a "table" once again until called for use.

Maybe soon will consider moving the unit on, so will keep you in mind if you like. Am really starting to consider another Miele or if one could find an older Asko, Bosch or Wascator front loader to take some of the work off the Miele W1070. Modern FLer's leave me feeling cold, even the Miele W3XXX series.

 

[aldspinboy]

Ahh Been away for awhile lol.

I never had dirty laundry out of a washer period.
Yes the scum could sit on the top but according to whirlpool
water goes out the holes and down the drian.
That stuff thats left is rinsed off at a low pile distrabution.
And makes great art in the basket and that is there style.

I like them both Spin drain and neutral draining.
The tags and GE..does have a spin wash quility and makes the clothes rise higher.
Giving a well distabution ...but I cant say any of them gives a better spin.
What 560 Whirlpool Maytags 620..RPM's I have to wait 45 mins or longer in the dryer even the last orbital drives there is lots of moister left.
Dan I do love Maytags.

But today washing in vintage washers I will spin them in my fronts.
For more water extaction.
Vintage & Modern the way I wash.

But its funny Maytag went with neutral draing as well as GE in there line up.
In the later years.

I dont think its a real huge problem in ether I just liked them both when they where around.

Now It seems like the Kenmore it goes right to wash and then drain fast.
No pause...so one can argue for the top of the clothes but it will be sprayed off.
Maytags and GE Sits claming that the soil is setteling.. now is that going thru the clothes as well and then stir up some exsiting soil as it's spin draining..
I do agree with Dan that it can give better distrbution.
But since Im with my washer all the time I have no problems I am a baby sitter.
And love the whole process when I am washing.
Greg said once not long ago ...We like to play in water.
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[this post was last edited: 8/25/2012-23:19]

 

[aldspinboy]

Maytag .
Sit and Spin.
Love the Zen moment in the Tags.
And the click and whoosh sound that the drain pump makes when starting the spinning.
This machine has hell of a rinse spin.
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[stan]

Darrin

Thanks for posting
I had forgotten how the Maytag cycle worked (use to have a set, the cooper/brown, grey tub) don't know the model are years they were, but that last post bring back memories, and looks pretty damm efficient to me!

 

[alr2903]

The older Maytags  spray water on full timer increment, in the middle of the first spin, if not overloaded IMHO its as effective as a second rinse. The old Westinghouse front load machines were such a different creature from todays F/L machines, you essentially got a "Magic Minute" during fill and continuous drain with no pause after the wash, followed by a generous shower rinse before the first spin.  They are as scarce around here as solid tub speed queens. not saying one is better. I would enjoy having one of each to use as alternative machines.  I am quite happy with the Maytags i have. alr

 

[gansky1]

Spin drain - more water drama and there ain't nothin' as thrilling as a really nice "reveal" of the agitator, especially in a fast draining machine.

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Spin and neutral drains are not all created equally from brand to brand. I get good, clean washing from both types.

 

[rickr]

The issue of spin drain vs neutral drain is irrelevent, unless the spin drain machine is a solid tub. The reason why should be obvious.

 

[foraloysius]

"The reason why should be obvious."

Well, it isn't to me. So perhaps you could enlighten me and perhaps some others.

 

[DirectDriveDave]

No differences here.

Between the most neutral drain machines I have used (WP/KM), and the most spin drain machines I have used (MT & SQ) I always have the same results, nice and clean with nothing left on it.

 

[rickr]

Sure! Unless you have a solid tub get rid of the water, over the top and into the outer tub, away from the clothes, all a spin drain does is stir the dirty water up. Then, as a perf tub spins, it spin drains the stirred up dirty water out through the clothes. I have three solid tub machines, and four perf tub machines, including two with neutral drain. If one observes, and thinks about it, it should become easy to understand why there is no advantage to a spin drain on a perf tub machine.