Neutral Drain Top Loaders - A Query

[launderess]

Many of my vintage laundry manuals and things one has read elsewhere warned housewives and others doing laundry against (top loading) washing machines that drained water through the wash, what we would call neutral draining on modern machines). Their main gripe was that it would lead to resoiling of the wash as the dirty water was filtered through textiles on it's way out of the wash tub.

While early H-axis washers did exsist in both commercial and domestic settings, the most common for the latter would have been some sort of wringer or mangle to be used for extraction, whilst the former had large spin dryers.

Using a wringer means the laundry is lifted up and out of the dirty water and the filty water removed (it goes back into the tub) taking with it much of the gunk.

Bring this up because last week hauled out the small Whirlpool to do a bit of washing and the neutral draining of that machine just *bugs* me. As it tis one always does two deep rinses but the idea of wash water being pulled down through what should be "clean" laundry just isn't my cup of tea.

From what one has read here in the group there were older top loaders that started to spin nearly soon as the water began to drain. This shoved soapy/dirty water out of the tub instead of through the wash, or no?

 

[qsd-dan]

Uh-Oh

World War 3 is about to ensue with this topic, lol

 

Put me down for spin drains only.

 

[strongenough78]

Well all I can say is I have never had an issue with my clothes getting resoiled when using a neutral drain washer. But when wash water is dirty, isn't it ALL dirty? I wouldn't think that the water below the surface is completely clean. I mean, it's sitting in dirty water anyway to which the dirty water gets pulled through anyway if by neutral drain or spin drain.

 

[mickeyd]

Tis all moot now anyway--they all neutral drain now, except

Given that the filthy laundry is saved for last, most of the washing liquors are relatively clean. One always shudders when our esteemed Launderess refers to lifting the clothes from the tub to the wringer, leaving the filthy water behind. One notices that her esteemed self does this regularly, i.e. the filthy water reference. Only very dirty work clothes from every sort of dirty work, poopy nappies, and manly unmentionables leave the water filthy.

 

So can we all at least agree that whatever is drained, spun, or spin-drained away isn't all that nasty to begin with, most of the time ?

 

Then, no matter how the water leaves the machine, it passes through the clothes. Meditate on this. The Maytags have an outer tub and while the washer is spinning the water out it must pass through the clothes; in WP/KM's, same deal, close inner tub, only nothing is spinning; in solid tubs, the water is hurled through openings around the tub, but alas it must of course pass through the load of laundry.

 

It always seemed to me that the condemnation of neutral draining machines was an advertising gimmick, an invented sales pitch.

 

It is also worth mentioning, that all top-loaders are now perforated, and most of them neutral drain. Now that's a lot of filthy water passing laundry gas, LOL.

 

On a personal note. Since the demise of my WP Convertible, one has keenly envied your mint Harvest Gold version, so perfectly maintained. If you would like to sell it to me for Winter kitchen use, I would love to buy it. Would also pay a fee for all your shipping expertise, and would be at your service in perpetuity. Then you'd have premium space for something else.

 

[bwoods]

I think the idea behind a spin-drain is that much of lint floats, as do soap suds, a spin drain quickly expels these out the tub without filtering them back through clothes.

As far as actual dirt, other than large solids, like sand, dirt is help in suspension by the detergent, so it shouldn't matter either way.

A solid tub spin drain leaves sand, etc. in the bottom of the tub.

GE had the right idea in the filter-flo. A spin-drain, yet perforations in the bottom of the tub to rid of solids. Best of both worlds.

 

[qsd-dan]

<a name="start_42118.620188">The Maytags have an outer tub and while the washer is spinning the water out it must pass through the clothes</a>
 
My concern it the top layer of water where oils and greases float and accumulate. This top layer of water usually goes directly out to the outer tub without touching the clothes at the beginning of a spin.
 
What I like most about spin drains is that it plasters the clothes evenly up against the entire width of the tub. This extracts water better from clothes and provides MUCH better extraction of water/soap/nasty crap from the clothes during a spin spray rinse. With a neutral drain, the clothes bunch up at the bottom of the tub and won't be rinsed out nearly as well during a spin spray rinse.

 

[DADoES]

 
For all the nearly 50 years that my clothes have been run through a belt-drive Whirlpool, then a neutral-drain, direct-drive KitchenAid, then two neutral-drain Fisher & Paykel machines, then a Calypso that literally "filters" all the water through the clothes throughout the entire cycle ... I've never had an issue with smutz left behind.

 

[akronman]

No difference to me

I have WP's and KM's with neutral drain, and Filter Flo's, Maytag, 1-18, and Norge with spin drain. The spinning ones send lots of dirty water up around the top rim that then sprays dirtily back through the clothes at it ramps up and the pump eventually catches up with all that water in the tub. I just can't see that being any different than a neutral drain, not a bit. Any washer will occasionally have a very bad load that needs a second rinse. Maytags always do, the agitation time on rinse is too darn quick.

Also, old belt drive WP/KM go immediately from agitate to neutral drain, no waiting, the water is still pretty decently mixed, whereas the spin ones always have that 30 to 50 second pause, allowing dirt to settle on the clothes. For the life of me, I cannot tell the difference in draining operations. If you used enough detergent and have an operating filter, my laundry can't tell the differrence at all.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Many early machines were solid tub machines and the most practical way to drain the water was to spin it over the top of the tub. Blackstone was an exception. Other machines, like the first Frigidaires and Maytags, had a perforated tub inside a solid tub and these were inside another water container into which the water was spun. These types of tubs were perhaps the worst design for straining water through clothes as reported in testing of the Frigidaire. Given that, one thing about the genuine solid tub washers using the spin drain was that the water just went out over the top of the tub. With most of the newer perforated tubs that do a spin drain within the outer tub, at the high water level, there is some amount of water slopping back over the top of the inner tub and being spun back through the clothes. Poor detergent usage in Filter Flo machines will show up as streaks on clothing. As washers evolved with only one motor, unless a neutral gear was put into the transmission, if the motor was turning some part of the drive train was moving. If Maytag and GE and others had put a neutral gear into their transmissions, they could have successfully drained with the tub remaining stationary, but they did not.

As for the top layer of water going over the top of the tub, that was not necessarily the case which was why some machines like SQ and Frigidaire used an overflow rinse before the drain. If you watch the tub as it begins to rotate, you will see the water form a cone, with the water rising at the edge and sinking in the middle. What sinks against the load is what you would like to have spun over the edge of the tub, but the principles of physics prevent that.

Having said that, the neutral drain was a big reason that WP made machines had to use the spray rinses even after the deep rinse to remove the bubbles, if not film, that settled on the top of the load as the machine drained. Even my KitchenAid washer starts a spray rinse at the beginning of the final spin and repeated it after a minute or so. I never let the machine do a neutral drain when I was using it. It was a simple matter of raising & lowering the lid to cancel the neutral drain and since the first machines of that design did not use a neutral drain, there was no concern about the capabilities of the motor or tranny being overtaxed in that situation.

This draining issue might have been one reason that Bendix and Westinghouse said that the load was lifted as the washer drained.

 

[launderess]

@mickeyd

You know I love you more than my luggage so we can always have a healthy debate. Long as in the end you agree with my view things are fine! *LOL* You see as with all good friendships it is a matter of give and take. I give my friends advice and they take it. *LOL*

Regarding the WP portable, don't know how "perfectly maintained" it is.

Rarely use the thing and when one does run a quick "rinse" to clear out any detergent/FS residue in the pump area, lower the drain hose into a pail to get out as much excess water as possible, the roll the thing back into it's spot. The lint filter is cleaned, tub and inside the lid wiped down with paper towels, then the lid left open for a day or two for the thing to air dry. Once all that is done lid is closed, a tablecloth cover goes over and the washer sits as a "table" once again until called for use.

Maybe soon will consider moving the unit on, so will keep you in mind if you like. Am really starting to consider another Miele or if one could find an older Asko, Bosch or Wascator front loader to take some of the work off the Miele W1070. Modern FLer's leave me feeling cold, even the Miele W3XXX series.

 

[aldspinboy]

Ahh Been away for awhile lol.

I never had dirty laundry out of a washer period.
Yes the scum could sit on the top but according to whirlpool
water goes out the holes and down the drian.
That stuff thats left is rinsed off at a low pile distrabution.
And makes great art in the basket and that is there style.

I like them both Spin drain and neutral draining.
The tags and GE..does have a spin wash quility and makes the clothes rise higher.
Giving a well distabution ...but I cant say any of them gives a better spin.
What 560 Whirlpool Maytags 620..RPM's I have to wait 45 mins or longer in the dryer even the last orbital drives there is lots of moister left.
Dan I do love Maytags.

But today washing in vintage washers I will spin them in my fronts.
For more water extaction.
Vintage & Modern the way I wash.

But its funny Maytag went with neutral draing as well as GE in there line up.
In the later years.

I dont think its a real huge problem in ether I just liked them both when they where around.

Now It seems like the Kenmore it goes right to wash and then drain fast.
No pause...so one can argue for the top of the clothes but it will be sprayed off.
Maytags and GE Sits claming that the soil is setteling.. now is that going thru the clothes as well and then stir up some exsiting soil as it's spin draining..
I do agree with Dan that it can give better distrbution.
But since Im with my washer all the time I have no problems I am a baby sitter.
And love the whole process when I am washing.
Greg said once not long ago ...We like to play in water.
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[this post was last edited: 8/25/2012-23:19]

 

[aldspinboy]

Maytag .
Sit and Spin.
Love the Zen moment in the Tags.
And the click and whoosh sound that the drain pump makes when starting the spinning.
This machine has hell of a rinse spin.
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[stan]

Darrin

Thanks for posting
I had forgotten how the Maytag cycle worked (use to have a set, the cooper/brown, grey tub) don't know the model are years they were, but that last post bring back memories, and looks pretty damm efficient to me!

 

[alr2903]

The older Maytags  spray water on full timer increment, in the middle of the first spin, if not overloaded IMHO its as effective as a second rinse. The old Westinghouse front load machines were such a different creature from todays F/L machines, you essentially got a "Magic Minute" during fill and continuous drain with no pause after the wash, followed by a generous shower rinse before the first spin.  They are as scarce around here as solid tub speed queens. not saying one is better. I would enjoy having one of each to use as alternative machines.  I am quite happy with the Maytags i have. alr

 

[gansky1]

Spin drain - more water drama and there ain't nothin' as thrilling as a really nice "reveal" of the agitator, especially in a fast draining machine.

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Spin and neutral drains are not all created equally from brand to brand. I get good, clean washing from both types.

 

[rickr]

The issue of spin drain vs neutral drain is irrelevent, unless the spin drain machine is a solid tub. The reason why should be obvious.

 

[foraloysius]

"The reason why should be obvious."

Well, it isn't to me. So perhaps you could enlighten me and perhaps some others.

 

[DirectDriveDave]

No differences here.

Between the most neutral drain machines I have used (WP/KM), and the most spin drain machines I have used (MT & SQ) I always have the same results, nice and clean with nothing left on it.

 

[rickr]

Sure! Unless you have a solid tub get rid of the water, over the top and into the outer tub, away from the clothes, all a spin drain does is stir the dirty water up. Then, as a perf tub spins, it spin drains the stirred up dirty water out through the clothes. I have three solid tub machines, and four perf tub machines, including two with neutral drain. If one observes, and thinks about it, it should become easy to understand why there is no advantage to a spin drain on a perf tub machine.

 

[bwoods]

Darren,

I never thought about it until you mentioned, it but my Gneral Electric filter flows always pause a while before going into spin. I awlays tought that was a real wastae of time, but I bet you are right.

GE was giving time for the solids to settle out and get sucked out the holes in the bottom of the tub as soon as the pump started. The soap suds, scum and lint would still be floating on top of the water to be whirled away into the outer tub as soon as the spin started.

I always just thought in was a quirk in their timer design. My stupidity in overlooking the obvious-, and underestimating the insight of the GE engineers.

 

[akronman]

Pause before spin

I never thought that pause was built in for any aspect of cleanliness or rinsing, I thought it was simply mechanically needed on a reversing motor, one click of the timer pause between motor turning one way and then the other. If the marketing folks want to claim it lets solids settle, fine, but it's just for electro/mech purposes of reversing the motor.

 

[foraloysius]

I beg to differ then

Assuming that scum is floating on top of the water, with a neutral drain it sinks onto the clothes. With a spin drain, it goes through the holes in the tub. The clothes stay under water during the spin drain as you can see in the movie with the Maytag. So the floating dirt is not being spun through the clothes.

 

[bwoods]

It makes sense, if a spin started immediately after agitation, solids would not have time to settle out. Some would, of course, spin out through the holes, but many like sand may get entrapped with folds and wrinkles of the clothing. So a pause ebfore drain is a win win situation. You win in that its not as hard on the motor, going directly into reverse, and you win in that solids do settle out due to gravity.

 

[foraloysius]

Considering that there is dirt and dirt, I would think that dirt that is heavy, like sand, would reach the bottom long before the end of the wash. Sand is probably waiting there to be pumped out long before the pause.

If you have a bucket of water that you used for cleaning something, there is always a lot of dirt on the bottom. I guess neutral drain or spin drain doesn't make much of a difference.

Then there is the dirt that was dissolved by the detergent and perhaps some that has the same specific gravity. I guess it doesn't make much of a difference either. Most of it will be drained through the clothes either way since it is all through the wash water.

But looking again at those videos here, made me realise there is also dirt that is lighter than water. I guess a neutral drain lets that dirt sit on top of the laundry, while a spin drain might spin that out over the laundry.

 

[bwoods]

Very heavy particles, like sand and grit, will be disturbed. and help in temporary suspension, by agitation and the movement of the clothes, and water currents. When water velocity drops to zero during the pause, they quiet down and settle out.

 

[mrb627]

Modern ND Machines

Seems that every Whirlpool based DD machine I see with some miles on it has a pronounce scum line left at the waterline around the tub and agitator. And that short spray at the start of the final spin, is it a rinse or trick to deflate any suds left on top of the load?

Discuss...

 

[jetcone]

Barry -

from doctrine: your theory about sand held in suspension doesn't hold water I'm afraid. Frigidiare states in their 1-18 service manual for the early S & T models that the holes in the tub at the bottom are placed so ( around the jet cone ) that they will allow all the solids -sand dirt etc to actually "drop out" at the moment the JetCone is at its top dead center or its bottom dead center. At both points F says the water in the tub being incompressible is completely paused with the JetCone and this allows the sand to drop out immediately.

Then the swooshing of the jetcone creates a wall of water currrent that brushes the sand across the holes in the tub, the bottom of the tub is designed for this , and the sand falls down the holes to the outer tub.

Ofcourse as we all know, F then moved the holes around 1972-3 to the outer bottom so all the sand trapped at the bottom would be swooshed out by the spin drain.

Wether there is any truth to this I can't say. I have never observed the bottom of a 1-18 tub in full action!!

Gansky1 love your reveal there!!

However -qsd-dan is correct Launderess has opened a nice can of worms for a Sunday afternoon!

 

[bwoods]

????

Your statement agrees completely with what I just said, Jon. Frigidaire stated the water is "completely paused" amd the dirt "drops out."

That is exactly what I stated. That is not a theory however, solids in suspensions will settle out as velocity of water movement decreases. With the larger (all other factors such as density being equal) settling first.

That "theory" is responsible for the gradaton of alluvial and fluvial deposits in streams and lakes.

We are both saying the exact same thing.

Hence, that miraculous and revolutionary development, holes in the bottom of a tub.

 

[yogitunes]

WOW....you guys are going in and on about this.....and it appears simple, as for a solid tub, outside of sediment falling to the bottom and ejected, overflo rinsing allows the floating scum to do just tha, float over the edge to the outter tub, and away from the laundry.....

perforated tubs, makes no difference, spin or neutral, ALL strain the water thru the clothes, one way or another.....nuff said.....

the only difference a neutral drain can cause, is soap/scum/grease remains at the top of the outter tub/splash guard during drain, and never gets flushed away.....potential for a smelly disgusting washer.....hats not to say that a spin drain doesn't pick up speed enough the throw the water from the outter tub back over ones laundry......

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE.....is that you are using proper washing techniques.....water temp and a good detergent...THAT should keep all soil suspended in the wash water....there should not be a problem for anyone, or any machine!....PERIOD

 

[bwoods]

I think everyone agrees, Martin, if you don't have a good detergent you ain't gonna have clean clothes, ha. Yes, "period"

I think rinsing effectiveness varies quite a bit from machine to machine. With the spin drain the suds are removed quickly without using additonal water to do it, and the surface suds are not filtered through the clothes.

Overflow rinses and sprays during spin (as in the older Whirlpools eventually clear suds work but use water and take longer. In an oversudsings event (which we probably all have been quilty of, now and then) a spin drain will often clear the machine of suds, without sudslock, even before the first rinse begins (and in some cases even before the first spray rinse hits).

If a machine doesn't rinse well, you still have dirt held in suspension by detergent in your clothes. So you are wearing resdiual dirt and detergent to work everyday.

With some of todays Energy Star machines, there is nothing stellar about the way they rinse. The lower water levels in the rinse barely allow the clothes to circulate, in some of the machines, let alone clear the fabric of residual detergent/dirt scum. ugh