New American standard 16 seer 4 ton Heatpump & High power bills

[volsboy1]

We had a new Heat pump installed in Aug/Sept it is the American Standard Heritage 16 seer and the T.O.L. Air handler installed also.They told us that with that Air Handler it comes out to about 17 or 18 Seer.We have had a VERY cold winter here in Tenn/North G.A.. I saw my first white Xmas ever and then that snow storm 3 weeks ago were we got about a foot of snow and thunder& lighting with it.. Our Heat pump has NO problem keeping the house at 70.The Heat pump is a two stage and it stays in low until it gets about 26 outside and then it will bring on the full 4 Tons.We used to heat with wood and we had a Coleman/Evcon A/C & Gas Furnace that very rarely came on.The Furnace looked brand new and it was twenty something years old when I saw it outside during the install of the new one.Our power bill was 325 bucks, last year at this time it was 110 bucks and our gas bill was about 90 bucks.My Sister power bill was 350 bucks and she has a Electric water heater and she has two Heil 13 seer Heat pumps one is a 2.5 ton and the other is a 2 ton.Our Heat pump has demand defrost and it even has Electric Expansion valves on it.Hers goes into defrost every 90 mins and has standard motors in the air handlers.We wanted to go with a Hybrid system but was told that sense our everything is in the Attic that our furnace would freeze up because they condense after the main combustion.I know that there is a 10k Aux heat in the Air handler..I was wondering is there anything that maybe wrong with it that I need to check first?Our Hvac folks that installed it our GREAT and go above and beyond to make sure your happy.Would it be cheaper if we changed out the Air/Handler for a Gas furnace?The Gas lines and everything is still up there and our installer said he would do it all for 700 bucks that includes labor and the furnace,but he does keep the Air handler.The Gas furnace would have the same E.C.M. motor in it but would be a 80% A.F.U. and would only come on when the system calls for A.U.X. heat. I have a feeling it was because all the snow we got here.We never get snow here that snow we had was the first one sense the Blizzard of 93 when we got 4 feet of snow.The snow had the gutters filled with ice and water was dripping on that huge fan outside and was being slung all over the coils.The fan on the outside unit spins very slow it's a huge two blade fan that spins at 500 R.P.M in low and 625 I think in high.I saw the coils covered with Ice all the time and it would go into defrost every hour sometimes less than a hour.Is this normal because this has been one of the coldest winters on record?I would appreciate any advice.

 

[combo52]

HIGH ELECRTIC BILL

Hang in there for the rest of the winter and maybe the rest of the year one or two mounts bills are not enough to make such major changes over. But first things first you only have a 16 seer system a better air handler does raise the total system much. 2nd turn off the strip heat all together you may notice a slight draft when its goes through defrost but you will save a major amount of power. I did this on my partners system 3 years ago and his large all electric home is running less than $200 per month @ 15 cents per kilowatt.

 

[volsboy1]

The Air handler is that new plastic one Trane calls it Hyperion air handler.The coils are all aluminum in it and it has that Vortica blower and Permanent Magnet motor in it.He put that one in cause it gets so hot in the Attic and because of space issues the Hyperion can be broke down easy.That's when he showed me the electric thermal expansion valve in it.I knew not to even think of getting a system with a orifice in it.One guy who I got a estimate from called told me they weren't a orifice but something else.Well it was a orifice just a fancy name for one.My T-Stat can be removed from the wall to be programed.All the pins are marked on there I was wondering if I take a piece of plastic like I use for my P.C. motherboards and place it over that Aux heat pin just to insulate it would that keep the Aux heat from coming on?When the T-stat called for Aux heat it would just not get the signal to come on.I know it would blow cold during defrost but I don't care about that.The Heat pump can keep the house at 70 even when it's 15 degrees outside and not bring on the Aux heat I just know that my partner and friends play with that T-Stat when I am not around.They don't understand how it works..

 

[mayguy]

Are you using the thermostat to set back the temps at night, and when you are out of the house?

Also, as other posted, you've had a colder winter yourself.

What model of stat did you get? Does it have an outdoor sensor?

 

[volsboy1]

Yes ours is the communicating model Heat pump with the charge assist .American standard has changed there line up now you can only get the communicating set-up when you go for the dual compressor job or the Platinum ZM Heat Pump .We were going to to get that one but it was 900 bucks more than the one we got and I was told by several people that for a Heat pump stick with a scroll compressor instead of a reciprocating.I have no idea why they told me that but I am happy with the system as far as running and it has NO problems Heating the house at all.My Installer E-mail me and told me that I have a perfect set-up for a Hydronic system for the Aux heat.I have the Gas line and vent already up there and they have a heat exchanger that slides right in the place where the Electric heat is now.When the Heat pump goes in defrost or EM heat it will use water which is a on demand set-up plus I get hot water out of the deal..I have no clue how he is going to do this but I do need a new water heater and if I can kill two birds with one stone why not... We have some of the cheapest electric rates in the country.Hell there is a ton of reactors and damns being in the heart of T.V.A..

 

[volsboy1]

Yes we do set the T-stat back at nite but 3 degrees and it slowly brings it back to 70 when the alarm goes off.I never jack that thing up cause that dreaded AUX HEAT will be showing.I have been told with heat pumps it better to leave them at a set temp.They move alot more air at a lower temp than our furnace and you will use more power if you turn it down 7 or so degrees then bring it back up when you get home and it makes sense cold will sink into everything just like heat will..I do turn it down to 57 when I go out of town but I have the T-stat slowly bring it up when I come home..

 

[mayguy]

Ok, just wanted to make sure you were not turning the temps way down at night and then comes on the AUX heat trying to recover.

did they do a Manual-J to get the right size equipment in your home?

 

[3beltwesty]

Random comments

Most heat pumps in the deep South just exchange the heat via air. Ie one does NOT have a giant underground tubing where one absorbs or sinks heat too.

With a heat pump that just exchanges heat via air, you basically have an AC unit in the winter, but the cycle is reversed. Normally these are very cost effective in slightly cool weather, but cannot keep up in very cold weather.

To "keep up" in very cold weather most Heat pumps in the Deep South use strip heat. Thus you are using the most expensive type of heating once it gets very cold. You basically are using electric space heaters like the 15 buck Walmart 1500 watt units; except gobs of them.

The AUX heat mode of using electric heat can be very expensive. As an example. my old Southern California apartment had heating via strip heat. When on it cost me 1.25 bucks per hour; and that was 20 years ago. It was 240 volts and something like 40 to 45 amps. If one was out of town for days and one arrived home; the heater had to heat up the air, household stuff and sheetrock. It might take 4 to 6 hours to heat up the walls and items to 70F.

****It would be interesting to plumb in a watt hour meter; or more simply an hour meter to measure your AUX strip heat power one uses. Then one would have hard facts of the AUX strip heat one used. Maybe a high tech thermostat has this feature in measure the hours the electric heat is on.

*IF* your AUX electric heat is on, you are burning cash like mad. You might as well just heat ones bedroom to 70 F and let the house be colder.

In this area it is quite common for folks to go into sticker shock with their first heating season of using a heat pump. The AUX heat is often on more than one thinks.

OK; dumb questions; is your heat pump just exchanging to the air; or do you have the rarer "up North Yankee" better type heat pump settup where one has buried coils in the ground, to a lake, a pond etc?

About all the house type heat pumps here exchange to air and use expensive strip heat in AUX mode when real cold.

A glass based watthour meter is 5 to 25 bucks on ebay. A meter base metal boxis about 25 to 30 bucks. You or an electrical chap can if crafty plumb this in series with the AUX 240 volt coil and then your AUX cost can be measured. I did this with a local friend a decade ago and his heat pumps AUX cost was thus known. It turned out that AUX heaters were on a lot more than they thought.

 

[3beltwesty]

electrics high costs in prospective,

To place electrics high costs in prospective, my SoCal 1100 sqft Apartment was in a city with about 3000 degree days of heating.

(* Degree days are a calculation used to estimate heating and cooling costs. Heating Degree Days is the annual sum of the degrees above 68 for each day's average temperature)

To run the apartments electric heater set to 68F would add to my electric bill over 100 bucks in a February; and that was 2 decades ago. I use to just heat a bedroom in the winter using a 500/1000/1500 watt heater and have just increases of 15 to 25 bucks since I was about never there anyway. The main heater was 10.8 Kilowatts; ie 45amps at 240 volts.

 

[volvoguy87]

Heat Pumps.

Air-to-Air heat pumps are the most common. They rely on the air conditioning system to run essentially in reverse. Geothermal heat pumps (with underground piping) use the ground itself as the heat sync. Geothermal heat pumps are pretty rare, even up North, because of their high cost of installation. They are some of the cheapest to run systems around, and they do pay for themselves, but the sticker shock of installation causes most building owners to use a cheaper (but more expensive to run) HVAC system.

Dave

 

[volsboy1]

Yes we had a Manual J done years ago with our first install.We had a 3.5 ton Coleman/Evcon which was a GREAT unit 20+ years and not one problem with it.I have never seen another one like our old one ever.We went with a 4 ton American standard 16 Seer 9.2 Hspf two stage Heat pump instead of a furnace.I lucked out on the installers they are good people and alot cheaper than Carrier.Carrier quoted us 10,500 for the infinity system which had a Bristol twin single compressor in it which I knew was old stock.Nutone/Maytag was 9,000 bucks plus there would be a 900 charge to change the copper lines out.Both Carrier or the Maytag did not come with a 10 year parts and labor warranty on it.I figured Trane/American standard would be even more NOPE they were 7800 bucks for new lines,warranty and everything.I think he gave me a huge discount because he is gay and married.I did not tell him but he did see my Advocate and out magazines laying around he then asked.He even asked me out to dinner but I am no home wrecker.I wanted to bad cause he is so hot and not the least bit fem.The system stays in low all the time even now and its 30 here the unit is in low and even shuts off.When it gets about 25 it will go in high.I think I am going to have that Hydronic demand water heater and use it for back up heat and hot water.I can get a Tax credit for it and natural gas is a lot cheaper than electric coils in there. I was wondering about Trane's compressors I know that the reciprocating compressors are made by them but are there scroll compressor's also made by them?There spec's seem identical to copeland ultra-tech.