New Dishwasher Shopping

[combo52]

DWs With Grinders

For the record, The WP standard tub Power Clean DWs, Will grind up tooth pikes, small pieces of broken glass, one foot long spaghetti noodles, small bone pieces, cherry pits, pop corn kernels and about any vegetable pieces that are soft enough to be pulled in or small enough if they are hard to get into the grinder area.

 

The most frequent service calls we are doing on DWs with filters are broken glass in drain pumps and in the main pump as well, This is mainly on Bosch and WP built DWs with filters.

 

While the filter does in theory keep hard items out of the pumps the problem is when the user goes to remove the filter for cleaning, the little pieces of broken glass slip into the drain pump or main pump inlets and then its a $100-150 service call or more if it ruins either of the pumps.

 

With the above mentioned WP PC DWs the only thing that ever stops them is and aluminum screw that floats over the trap and gets into the grinder, this will result into a $150 repair.

 

John L.

 

[DADoES]

 
John:  A moment of weakness, apparently.  We all have them.  :-/  Thanks for the clarification and compliment. 

Last PV unit I checked, my aunt's KA, had a bit of paper on the plate (maybe from a jar label) and some bits of rust in the sump from rack deterioration.

 

[iiijohnnymaciii]

I got my dishwasher!

First, I just want to thank everyone that took the time to give their input and experience. It was greatly appreciated and I learned a lot from this discussion. It's great to have a forum like this to share experiences with people all around the world who share a love for appliances as much as I do.

For me it came down to the Bosch 100 Series SHEM3AY56N and the Kenmore Ultra Wash PowerWave 13229. Both had similar price points. The Bosch right around $450 and the Kenmore right around $450 as well (after the Sears sale and using a $35 off coupon code). Sears also had an extra bonus of $150 worth of rewards points paid back in 10 monthly installments, which I can use to buy vacuum bags. So, after all said and done the Kenmore would end up coming in at $300.

Both offered a stainless tub, but the Bosch had a plastic bottom, while the Kenmore was completely stainless. Whether or not an extra 25% of stainless steel would make a difference with drying, I'm not sure, but stainless does retain heat better. Having a stainless bottom should in theory do a better job of keeping the water hot and heating the water faster.

I really liked Bosch's bottom rack. It seemed very organized. I took my plates, bowls, and cups down to Lowes to see how everything would fit. The Bosch had a place for large plates, another for small bowls, another for small plates, and I could fit a few big bowls in between. However, my family goes through a LOT of cups and the upper rack tines did not fit my needs. There was a spot for bowls and another row that was too small to fit cups. On my previous dishwasher (a Kitchenaid), I would use all 5 rows most of the time. While the Kenmore's middle rack was designed for small bowls it wasn't too wide and I could fit wide cups in there and they wouldn't move around too much. So, overall, the Kenmore rack was something that fit my family needs a lot better.

Speaking of cups, some of my cups have extra concave bottoms and the Bosch’s lack of a top spray arm had me questioning whether debris pooling on the bottom of cups was something that could end up being a problem.

I really love a front panel countdown display with actual buttons, which both supplied, but the Kenmore's buttons just seemed more sturdy. While the outside round buttons felt strong on the Bosch, the rectangular buttons closest to the timer felt flimsy to me. I questioned whether that would be a problem down the line with buttons popping off.

According to the parts manual, the Bosch had the same pump motors as the 800 models! I'm sure the water pressure would be good (as I’ve seen in dishwasher videos of the 800). However, after watching a reviewed.com video inside a Kenmore with a PowerWave spray arm and Andrew's video of his Total Coverage arm, I was simply blown away by the water pressure. A lot of times with a name like PowerWave I would think it was just a gimmick, but the PowerWave truly does live up to its name. It also helped that Andrew had raved about his Total Coverage spray arm as well.

The Bosch had the best overall cycle options in my opinion. It had the shortest timed heavy cycle. It also had the hottest wash and rinse. With all that good stuff from the Bosch, I just couldn't get over the PowerWave spray arm coupled with a 7.9 gal 1 hour wash cycle and a heated dry option. That's probably as close as one is going to get to old school wash.

As far as reliability, the truth is, I haven't had great luck with Whirlpool the last decade. My first Whirlpool lost it's pump and my recent KitchenAid lost it's main board. On the other hand, I was supposed to get a Bosch instead of the KitchenAid last time, but the Bosch came with a bad pump off the bat, so I got scared off and returned it for the KitchenAid.

Both the Bosch and Kenmore seemed like great washers, especially for their price, but it was one that stuck out to me a little more than the other as a better fit.

I chose the Kenmore Ultra Wash Powerwave 13229!

So, I purchased online from Sears on 4/30 and it was delivered on 5/4.

Here are some of the Pros and cons of the machine after use.

Pros:

1. The 1 hour wash with heated dry option. It definitely lives up to its name. This isn't a quick wash cycle for lightly soiled dishes. I wish I had a GoPro so that I could see the inside. It sounds like a lake in there. It gets the dishes clean and the dishes are steaming hot when its done. The other night I washed a stainless steel pan I had used to cook burgers in. It had burnt bits and grease all over it. After the cycle, there was a quarter inch spec of burnt burger on it. So close! All the other dishes were grease free, so I'm happy to say it just didn't distribute the grease everywhere else.

2. The front panel display. I like the color of digital green numbers on a black panel. The buttons are textile and responsive.

3. The black panel. My last Kitchenaid was stainless and it was absolutely horrible to take care of. Water spots galore on that front panel. It was before print shield, so I'm not sure how good stainless is now, but I really like the good ol' black panel. It's easy to wipe clean.

4. Slide up detergent dispenser. They must have finally run out of the old, flip up dispensers, because mine came with the slide up. It's nice not to have to worry what I put in the front of my bottom rack.

Cons:
1. Part of the reason that I'm so late with the update is that the first one came with a leaky door on the left side. When I got the box the left corner of the box was wet. When I felt the insulation under the door it was wet on the left side. The door was not closing well either. So, I believe the dishwasher was layed face down and the pump water that comes in the dishwasher leaked out. Then once it was place right side up, it leaked out of the door. I called sears and they remedied the situation and let me know the next dishwasher would be inspected at the warehouse before being shipped to me.

2. Rinse aid is necessary to get things totally dry. With my last Kitchenaid, there was no need to use rinse aid. It had an exhaust fan and prodry option.
I'm not sure I can truly count this as a con, because this dishwasher has to make a price point and there are more expensive dishwashers that have the turbo dry option if you pay for it.

3. Super long pots and pans cycle. We are talking 4 hours folks, if you select heated dry and sanitize. This used to not bother me, I would just set my old dishwasher on before bed and in the morning I was good-to-go, but the 1 hour wash has spoiled me a bit. I have to admit it's kinda nice to be able to do a load and get it done before bed if I wish.

So, overall I'm very happy with my purchase. Thanks for all the help and suggestions!

Here are a few pictures

 

[mrsalvo]

Will be replying here, 2 threads same topic. I like your dishwasher and I will be keeping this in mind when my KA goes down for a 4th time. I'll be keeping my eye out on a sale. I like the racks.
Interesting that Lowes tried to steer me towards a Fridgadaire, having low repair calls. I looked at one, but politely declined. I don't trust Whirlpool anymore.
Thank you.

Barry

 

[DADoES]

 
Just to say, seems it's a misconception that stainless steel dishwasher tanks retain heat by nature moreso than plastic.  They require insulation on the exterior.

A simple test ...

Hold a stainless steel or other metal pan on your hand and pour boiling water into it ... see how long you can hold it.  Feel the heat passing through?

Now do that with a plastic bowl (of sturdy enough material to handle the temperature).  Not so much heat passing through, right?

 

[iowabear]

Thanks for the detailed follow-up! Nice machine for the price you got it for.  Sears is capable of some great deals, ours closed last summer and I was sorry to see it go.

 

[vacerator]

I feel you made the better choice John;

Before my dad passed, he had the Bosch with the annealed stainless tub over plastic.
That design was fine, but after only three years, it quit. Trouble code said wash motor fail. After my sister bought the house from us siblings, she got a Whirlpool which has been fine thus far.
How do you like living there? We thought about relocating south after 2006, as we both lost our jobs here in Mi. in '07, and '08 respectively. We couldn't get squat for the house as the market crashed, and we were both over 45 years of age. So with over 80% equity to lose if we moved, we decided to stay. I ended up not filing for my unemployment extension, and took a job paying half of my 31 year career income with zero benefits. I stuck it out 2 years. but could not get any decent raises. My folks became ill, and needed help, so I left it to care for and help them and my siblings do it. I'm now 59, and awaiting to draw my retirement. Hopefully 3 more years, if the stock markets don't decline again, and mess with 401k's, pensions, etc., My spouse is master degree'd, and found a job out of California almost right away, but had to travel every week for several years. Two years to Little Rock weekly. It worked out, as now works remotely from home.
Best of luck to you and yours. if applicable.
Peace!, brothers from the mitten here.

 

[iiijohnnymaciii]

Agreed, stainless steel does allow heat to pass through it much more than plastic due to its conductive properties, but that is greatly minimized once you add closed cell sponge and fiberglass insulation into the equation.

The first fill in a stainless tub there will be loss of heat as it absorbs into the steel. That's as far as most of the heat escapes, thanks to the insulation. Since the steel absorbed heat on the first fill, subsiquent fills will now heat up quicker due to the steel acting as a passive heating element.

For example: take that same stainless pot and put closed cell sponge and fiberglass insulation around it. Pour the boiling water in it and into the plastic bowl. Let it sit for a couple minutes. Empty the bowls. Now pour boiling water back in the plastic bowl and the insullated stainless bowl. 2 minutes later take the temperature and see which bowl was able to keep the water temp higher.

Stainless tubs will retain more heat, because it stores heat in the steel while the plastic tub allows the heat to drain out with the water.

Plastic tubs are great when you have 750 watt heating elements, but now we are dealing with 400 watt elements and washers can use all the help they can to get water temperature up quicker.

 

[kb0nes]

The difference in running cycle water temps between a stainless vs a plastic tub will be so slight to not be of any practical advantage either way. What is a couple degrees in the grand scheme of things?

 

[iiijohnnymaciii]

Vacerator:

Sorry, about your dad.

Yeah, Michigan has been a tough place to live in the last 15 years. I made a lot of good memories there, but I love North Carolina. Glad things have worked out for you all now, fellow Michigander. I'm still a die hard Lions fan and looking forward to hopefully a better season this year. Enjoy your summer up there.

IowaBear:

You are welcome! Yeah, Sears will have some really good deals. Ours is closing in 6 months. They are putting a Publix in the mall to replace it.

 

[combo52]

SS Vs Plastic DW Tanks

With the thousands of DWs I have dealt with I can discern no performance differences that are attributable to whether the machine has a SS or Plastic tank, or for that matter a porclean on steel tank.

 

There are significant differences in drying ability of the hundreds of different DW designs that have been produced over the past 60+ years but drying ability is really a matter of heat and ventilation etc.

 

The only real difference between SS & Plastic is fire risk and SS recycles more readily than plastic when the DW gets scraped.

 

John

 

[chachp]

Bosch 800 Series

 

<span style="font-family: 'comic sans ms', sans-serif;">About a year ago we bought a new house and put in a Bosch 800 Series Machine.  Won't buy another.  We've had two others, older models in other houses and they were fine.  This one has a filter that is not self cleaning.  After about a month the interior took on this awful odor.  We discovered it was the filter and now if we don't clean it at least once a week the dishwasher smells awful.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: 'comic sans ms', sans-serif;">We don't rinse dishes we just knock food off or scrape if needed.  The machine cleans pretty well but the cycles are long.  I don't hate the racks but will likely replace it in the next year or so.  The filter is a pain too clean.  It's not a quick rinse, you have to scrub it with a brush to get it clean.</span>

 

[chachp]

UPDATE

 

<span style="font-family: 'comic sans ms', sans-serif;">So, I decided to update my bitchy post with photos and as I looked at the glasses in the photos I noticed that the build up on our filter everyday could be our smoothies.  I never thought about it until I looked at these photos.  So I guess the question to the experts is, should this matter?  The smoothies are things like fruit, spinach and Kale.  They are liquified in a Vitamix.  Shouldn't what's left of these get washed down the drain?</span>

 

<span style="font-family: 'comic sans ms', sans-serif;">The picture of this filter is two days worth and if I don't clean it by the end of the week it is covered thick and stinks.  The other pictures are of a typical load for us.  I run it every couple of days and as I said we don't rinse.  I suppose if we rinsed the smoothie glasses we might not get the build up.  It just bugs me because we never had this in any of our vintage machines or the Bosch we had in the old house.</span>

 

[combo52]

Dishwashers With Filters

I think everyone knows that I hate DWs with filters, they always start to stink and your final rinse water is always being drawn over and through the muck on the filter.

 

DWs with filters just lead people into rinsing the dishes before loading wasting water and time. I remember when I was in HS one of best friends Moms got a new KA KDC-16 DW [ we had a 1966 KM 400 DW built by D&M at the time ] and I asked her why she was rinsing all the dishes when loading, I said we never did with our DW. She said it was either rinse the dishes now or clean the messy filter every few days and so she always rinsed.

 

I have posted pictures of a typical load we do in our WP PC DWs, I can tear the complete pump apart in one of our DWs and not find a thimble full of gunk stuck in it.

 

Hi Chach, you might try putting about 2 TS of DW detergent on the door when you start the DW cycle, having detergent in the first fill might reduce the gunk that gets stuck on the filter.

 

[iiijohnnymaciii]

Very nice John! I was looking for an old Power Clean, but unfortunately none came up around here. How does the chopper system work for the new Maytags? It looks a lot different than the voyager models. Is it more like the power clean systems?

 

[iiijohnnymaciii]

Also, how many gallons does a power clean use and how much time for the cycles?

 

[jerrod6]

Do you scrape the inside of the glasses? If not that might help with your filter trapping the fiber and fruit pulp or whatever else is being left inside. I don't rinse either and use a silicone spatula for scraping. For glasses with fiber or pulp inside, I usually insert the spatula and give it a whirl around and pull that stuff out.

 

[henene4]

Fibres

Fibrous deposits are the bain of any DW.

You either have the redeposited and need insane amounts of water or you have a filter that - if loaded with such amounts - dosen't self clean as well.

The old flat screen filter design by BSH was more self cleaning but used more water (Auto cycles basicly always ran pre washes).

The new one is finer and such tiny fibres often just get cought in it.

Also, if the load isn't verry soiled but has lots of fibre in it, as the sensor is behind the filter, it might run a lower fill count cycle which hinders the self cleaning ability.

Might be a good idea to just flush the items with those residues ones quickly.
Just a quick fill-up and dump.
Should be only a couple of items, so no huge waste.

On the topic of the last rinse water getting pulled through the accumulated dirt:
a) At least it dosen't get sprayed back on.
b) Yeah, it the dirt gets probably the biggest water flow of any thing in the machine.
c) After being submerged in 140F+ water for an hour or more, is it really dirt?

 

[iiijohnnymaciii]

I have a chance to get a Whirlpool DU850SWPS4 for $50. It’s in good condition. Thought I might give it a run. Is this a good model?

 

[appnut]

That is a Dura wash dishwasher and not a power clean.