New (to me) Miele W1213 washer & T1415 dryer

[revvinkevin]

 

 

Last week my friend Thomas sent me a link for a Miele washer & dryer for sale (DARN YOU Thomas! ).  Long story shorter, I contacted the seller, then last Tuesday after work, drove a total of 4 hrs round trip to go pick these up.

 

Turns out they are approx 12 years old (per Miele). I got them home and unloaded, then yesterday I was finally able to change the power cord and hook up the washer. It light up! A good sign... now to see if it works..... it seems to!   

 

The really odd thing about the 4 prong plug power connection... inside it only uses 2 wires for power and the ground, the neutral wasn't connected to anything inside the machine, just zip-tied to part of a wire harness not connected to anything.  

 

I started a cycle to rinse out the excess detergent residue left in it..... and boy did it suds up! I then started the hottest sanitize cycle after adding some citric acid and let it do it’s thing. I checked on the washer 2 hours into the 4 hour cycle and .... unfortunately the water was cold. The heater doesn’t work, bummer!

 

I’m hoping the part doesn’t cost too much!

 

So far the big thing I don't like about this model is, you can only start a complete cycle... there is NO possibility for rinse & spin only, drain only or drain & spin only option, it's all or nothing.  If you have to stop the cycle, it drains what water is in the drum and shuts off, that's it.   On the up side, it has a drum light and it sprays water directly on the door glass for the first 5-6 seconds.

 

OK, so now to add to all of this, Saturday I came cross another Miele set for sale, this time with stainless steel cabinets!   Ugh.   So if all plays out as I'm hoping it will, those will also be coming home in about 10 or 12 days!

 

Kevin

[this post was last edited: 6/3/2019-11:13]

 

[combo52]

Fun Washers

They are strictly 240 volts so no neutral required. The washers are fun the dryers not so much.

 

Hope you are not paying much for these older machines, we see these Miele pairs on the recycling piles nearly every week.

 

Used Mieles in the US are like having a 10 YO Peugeot or Renault in 1974, there is simply no demand for them which makes them a fun cheap washer toy.

 

John

 

[ozzie908]

OK someone tell me please

How does any washer work without a neutral as I thought all electrics needed at least Live and Neutral it can't work via ground can it ? Would that not fuse the breaker ??
I do not understand anything other than 3 wire 220 volt being a brit, I do understand 3 phase and 415v though. Whats 4 prong mean is it
Ground
Live 1
Live 2
Neutral ??

Thank you for an explanation I can get my head round.

Austin

 

[launderess]

1200 and also the 1100 series

Which were of the same model years weren't exact hits with the public due to their "limited" cycles. For those who didn't mind lack of certain cycles or user control they were fine, others were more bothered and looked elsewhere.

As for seeing Miele sets on "recycling piles" in good numbers, there are a few reasons for this, but not all of them horrible.

First and foremost as one has stated repeatedly over the years not everyone has access to proper electrical current to run the washer and or dryer. So someone attempting to sell a Miele washer or dryer often faces the same limited market as MieleUSA. This even for machines that are perfectly fine.

Two, like all appliances sooner or later Miele products will need some sort of attention. Some just aren't willing to fork over a few hundred for a simple part, plus call out costs, taxes, etc... So they junk the washer or dryer, and the perfectly fine mate appliance goes along.

Three, many Americans then and now still consider Miele washers and dryers to have rather small capacities. This more so as Whirlpool and others have launched uber sized front loaders to the USA market. So people either seek to trade up from their (again perfectly fine) Miele appliances when they want something larger. And or persons having bought a home where the things were left decide they don't suit their needs.

If 208v-240v power were the standard in USA instead of 120v, *and* MieleUSA got their act together in terms of supplying parts and service nationwide for less than dear money, many of those Miele washers/dryers might not end up being rubbished.

People can harp on about them all they like, but my Miele washer is going on > 15 if not 20 years now and still does the job. Yes, it has required repairs over the years but what else wouldn't?

 

[henene4]

3 phase 415V vs 2 phase 208V

@ozzie908

You have to first understand several things.

First, you have to understand that alternating current is a sinewave. That means the voltage fluctuates from a positive peak voltage through 0V to a negative peak voltage to 0V back to the peak voltage, 50 or 60 times a SECOND respectivley.

The voltage given is the rms (root mean square, fancy engineering speak) voltage which is - loosely put - the voltage that averages out of that wave form.
So for 220V the peak voltage is somewhat higher (like 315V or something like that), for 110V in the US as well (that should be at 180V to 200V or such).

That dosen't matter to loads as the time spent at exactly 0V is indefinetly small and any capacity in a design can perfectly well buffer that out.

Second, these voltages are always relative to 0V.
You need a refference to which you measure the voltage, that's why a multimeter has 2 probes: You measure one point relative to another.

In your supply you technicly have 2 0V refferences: neutral and earth.
So (don't do this) if you would measure any phase to neutral or to earth the measurement should be 0.
TECHNICLY neutral and earth should be 0V to each other. That however is not really ever the case, so don't think you can just touch neutral and be fine.

Side note there: The reason we don't just use neutral as ground is that a fault to a true ground basicly always has an infinetly smaller resitance than the way to neutral.

Last, you have to understand that both the US and EU power grid are fare more simmilar then you imagine.

They have 5 wires max: 3 phases, all at the same voltage to neutral; neutral and earth.

Only difference is that that voltage is once 110V rms and once 220V rms.

Now the magic: These 3 phases are shifted to each other so that they alternate at reaching their peak voltage.

As said before, measuring voltages is done between 2 points as a refference to each other.

So, if don't measure to 0V neutral but to a different phase, you suddenly have a different voltage.
It still has the same frequency, but is shifted differently again and has a higher peak and thus a higher rms voltage.

Your circuit breaker dosen't care much as it just checks for total current and there is no fault to ground, so the RCD dosen't care.

Measuring power usage and makeing sure no one phase is ever overloaded is a little more complicated thus these systems are mainly regulated by the power company and used only when need.
Makes that more expensive as well.

Most equipment using all 5 connection in a house enviroment is usually not really grabhing the higher voltage but just refferencing each phase seperatley to neutral for 3 seperate circuits.
A lot of ovens or especially cooktops do that and split the usual 4 zones in 2 subdevisions with one large and one small burner plus the oven seperate.

In the US, they use it to get higher voltage.

It is also verry advantageous for running fixed speed motors as these 3 phase each single refferenced to neutral already produce a stable enough rotating magnetic field, perfect for example for industrial compressors.

On the option of an aditional rinse only:

Been using a short cold cycle of appropiate design as a stand in for a rinse only on many machines.
Over here that is often better and quicker then a true rinse only cycle.

 

[brisnat81]

Hi Kevin,

Before you order anything, I'd confirm that its the Element that has open circuited, rather than there being an issue with the relay that controls the heater. I'm not sure on the 1200 series whether the relay is part of the control board, or a separate part. If its on the main control board, then unfortunately its probably uneconomical to repair.

Cheers

Nathan

 

[launderess]

That neutral wire

For at least Miele washers long has been connected to "nothing". Search archives and others have posted the same discovery.

 

[whatsername]

Without checking the manual, I would expect there to be some crazy key combination for spin only or rinse and spin. Other machines it’s something like power on, spin speed button, start

 

[launderess]

IIRC there sort of is such a thing

But it requires getting into service mode.

IIRC someone over on the Laundry Forum of THS (now Houzz) found out how and posted about in detail. MieleUSA apparently got wind of this if for no other reason apparently persons were messing about in the service mode then couldn't get their machines back to "normal".

By time Miele introduced the 3xxx series access to service mode had been restricted, and or certain functions removed entirely. A Miele tech with his laptop probably can access full menu of options, otherwise non-qualified persons cannot.

 

[launderess]

Just to be clear

IIRC the "rinse and spin" function accessed in service mode was some sort of testing cycle or whatever. One couldn't reprogram the washer and keep the cycle available otherwise. At least that is what one remembers.

So unless someone was willing to go into service mode each time wanted a rinse/spin, it wasn't going to happen.

In any event later models of Miele washers brought back rinse/spin so guess message was received loud and clear.

 

[bewitched]

Miele wash programs can be updated. Mine has every sort of program, even a program for Lego bricks but I usually end up using always the same, hygiene cotton, wool and wash and wear.By the way Miele machines are not fancy toys for people that just want to play with a new gadget. They are for people that want reliable ,solid products that do their work well and for a long time. Few machines nowadays are built like Miele. I used for a month one of those top load machines (it was a Kenmore) when i visited USA but everything that was stained came back the same way. Same thing happened using a Maytag front load (it was one of these with tilted drum) in a laundry. I didn’t do anything, just let the operator dose detergent and choose the suitable wash program.I never had such issues with any of the Miele i owned.

 

[launderess]

Spin only:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2436329/spin-only-mode-miele-w1213-1215-clothes-washer

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?45841

IIRC Miele 12XX series does offer PC update function. Though don't know if adding a separate rinse and or spin is possible. For one thing where would it go on the controls? With a total touch screen panel it is easy to add or subtract. But the 11XX and 12XX washers have printed panels with buttons.

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?12455

(WEHT Pulsator anyway?)

Comments about top loading washers:

No, on balance you won't get the same sort of results with top loader versus a h-axis washer. Especially if the latter is of the more advanced options with cold water starting, gentle heating of water, various cycles for "stains", and so forth.

Just starting from cold and heating to 120F or even 140F (profile wash) is streets ahead of bunging wash into a top loader.

To get anywhere near same results on badly soiled laundry one would have to go back to our grandmother's or her mother's days.

Things would need to be soaked first in cool or warm water with a pre-soaker product, then washed in hot water.

American housewives soon stopped all of that and just used copious amounts of chlorine bleach which took care of a multitude of laundry sins.

 

[jerrod6]

I had the W1986 model washer which was very good with wash options. Then Miele released the 12xx series which I thought was a step backward. No way to do anything except push the limited button options given.

The current W1 model does everything you can think of - max rinse levels, 4 rinses on some cycles, actual hot water washes, steam to release wrinkles at the end of cycles, and more, so I am glad Miele finally released a model to North America that brings a bit more functionality.

 

[revvinkevin]

 

 

I also have a W1986 which I REALLY like, but I made a boo boo and now the drain pump doesn't work 

.   I've only quickly checked it, but need to spend more time WHEN I have time. 

 

[thomasortega]

Kevin

Silly question

Can't you swap the drain pumps?

 

[revvinkevin]

Thomas, while I’m sure the pump will physically fit in place, the pump and other compunents inside the W1926 are 120V, but everything inside the newer W1213 are all 240V. So unfortunately....... no I can’t swap parts from one machine to the other.

 

[revvinkevin]

OK, I just finished running a full cycle (NORMAL - hot) and 1 Affresh puck (tablet). Interesting that when I started the cycle it showed 58 minutes remaining, but about five minutes into the wash, the cycle suddenly lost 10 mins. Then 10 mins into the wash, a few more minutes vaporized. At the end of the cycle, what started out as 58 minutes, ended up being 45 mins.

With the exception of the heater not working, everything else seems to work as it’s supposed to. I’m going to need to run more citric acid and a couple more of those affresh tablets through it, before doing any real laundry in it, because it needs it!

 

[thomasortega]

Kevin, I know you...

Simply toss a whole jar of citric acid to make it even stronger.

It won't harm the washer at all.

Don't forget to add some water manually to raise the water level about half inch, to get rid of the "ring around the collar"

 

[launderess]

"cycle suddenly lost 10 mins"

Likely the washer deducted the heating portion of cycle. What temp did you have machine set? No heat? Cold/80C or Warm/104C? If washer is set to "no heat" then WYSIWYG pretty much in terms of total cycle time since cycle uses no heat.

All European H-axis washers have about a ten minute (give or take)period as part of a wash program for heating water to selected temperature. Given small amounts of water used nowadays a 2000w to 2100w or slightly above heater is more than capable of doing so within that time frame at 208v-240v.

However the parameters for water heating are based upon a certain ambient incoming water temp. If water is warmer, obviously machine will reach temp faster and cease heating. On the old timer models Miele washers just turned off the heater but kept same time allotted. One could manually move timer out of the heating period however.

Modern European H-axis washers (especially the cold fill only) yes, turn off the heater and proceed to main wash cycle, but at some point will deduct the ten or whatever minutes from over all total time because water reached proper temp faster than programmed parameters.

My Lavamat does something similar, although it will deduct the time (ten or so minutes) after wash completes and before first rinse. So I'll see "47" minutes) when looking at count down clock, turn my head and look again to see "37" minutes.

Check service manual I sent. Your washer does have a fault code (F20) indicating issues with heater or relay; but it doesn't flash. You have to go into service mode and look up recorded recent fault codes.

"Fault Code F20, Heating"

Symptom
During operation, this fault is not indicated via any LEDs on the
Control Panel. The program continues, however poor wash results,
and longer than usual operating times may be noticed.
Cause
The water is not being heated.
Remedy
􀂃 Check the Heater Relay and Relay circuit.
􀂃 Check the Heater Circuit for an open or short circuit

------

So apparently the Miele washer just chugs on even if water doesn't reach set temp.