New Washer, Fisher & Paykel or Bosch

[aldspinboy]

And yes u can use additives i've used oxyclean but my dailey driver for whites and bright colors ARM & HAMMER SUPER WASHING SODA WITH DETERGENT excellent an inexspensive around 1.99# and clorox ultima care bleach for those funkey white socks!lol darren k

 

[miele4848]

HE Detergent

I can't belive Persil is that expensive in the US! How much washloads can be washed with a single box? I also don't know why american detrgent manufacturers don't offer a basic, cheap HE detergent? In Germany a box of concentrated, HE (we only have HE) detergent costs about 7 USD (18 loads) Of course cheaper ones are available!

To funguy:

I agree with you, that modern, some european HE washers consume far less water then needed! Our Consumer Report ratet them accordingly. I was serching for a washer, offering different rinsing waterlevels, but didn't find a propper one. Finaly I bought a used Miele, that features the waterlevel setting my neurodermatitic skin needs. I can add a fifth rinse, and can also change the washing waterlevel by reprogramm the machine. It's already 15 Jears old but washes very well! Water saving has benn exaggerated over here.

Spinning problem:

Modern washers at a higher price range offer a very well working programme to balance the load before start spinning.
So there is no problem to place this washer where you want!

 

[dj-gabriele]

To Funguy10

1- You have to bend down to load and unload them. Can only be averted by buying $100 pedastals.
Every machine made in Europe has a top loading horizontal axis counterpart (there even are many top loading dryers)
Plus also in the USA with top loading washers you have to bend to load the dryer...

2- Require HE dtergent.
Since ever the detergent has only been HE on this part of the World, I have never seen so called "regular" detergent.

3- If you don't have a solid groud, they will shake up a storm during spin.
That's why all the washers have adjustable feets... but it seems that 99% of the people don't even know what they are and the service people are even dumber...

 

[miele4848]

Detergent

Just an idea: maybe I could send Persil to the US.I had a look at geman post homepage. The shipping costs 87$, every persilbox then costs about 12.80$ instead of 19,50$ in the US(18 washloads) I could send you about 15 of them. Youst an offer to H- Axis washer user in that forum!

They offer color, whites and sensitive skin detergent!

I would also try to translate the apportioning scale. Would be great fun if I could help you!

 

[funguy10]

To dj-gabriele, I know about the Top-Load H-axis thing. There is a brand of Top-Load H-axis washer here in the USA. It is called Staber. It is not widely known but it seems to be gaining in popularity. Also, I know about Top-Loading dryers. One company I know that does this is Fisher & Paykel. Attached is a link to the Staber website.

http://www.staber.com

 

[bimmer740]

dj-gabriele,aside from the fact that the Bosch received an excellent rating in Consumer Reports, along with a good rating from those on this forum, we chose this unit because we didnt need the pedestal! The Whirlpool Duet and the LG units seem to sit much lower than the Bosch. Although the Duet and Bosch were not side by side, the pedestal drawer on the Duet looks much taller than the Bosch. I find it very easy to load and unload the clothes from this machine. Plus, it would look out of place being so much taller right next to my dryer.

I would love to know more about Persil for colors, if its really worth it, I would certainly buy a box. I didnt realize that HE detergent is avaliable in Europe, I assume that greater competition keeps the price lower there.

 

[panthera]

Steven,

Since basically all machines over here in Europe are FLs, all our detergents are, unless specifically labeled otherwise, HE.
Of course they are much cheaper than in the US, partly because of the competition, partly because they are nothing 'special' as in the US.
Color Persil, like all the Persil variations is good stuff. Basically, it trades strong bleach and whiteners for especially effective enzymes, fabric 'protectors' (Laundress could tell you more about that) and special elements which prevent or minimize color transfer. But you can buy those sheets which do the same thing in the US.
Personally, I have found that 'Vollwaschmittel' from Persil does not attack my colored clothing enough to justify the difference...but that is because I wash colors at 40°C (that would be slightly hotter than American 'Hot' and is considered barely warm here.)
Once the temperature and wash time goes up to a heavy duty 60°C load (that is 140°F and a good 20°F warmer than US Hot,) standard Persil does bleach colors and will cause some color running with non-fast colors.
If you are thinking of running clothes at European temperatures, then color Persil will please you. If you want to run them in the much cooler water Americans generally use, I suspect you will be disappointed. Remember, European detergents are designed for much longer wash times, much warmer water and cycles which begin with cold water and then heat it gradually, giving the enzymes and other cleaning agents the perfect environment to do their jobs. They probably are too weak and ineffective for the faster, colder US cycles.
I use two European FLs in the US regularly when I am there. Both give very good results despite the short wash times and lower water temperature of only 120° when I use HE All Liquid together with Baby Biz. I always add those funny little sheets which absorb non-color-fast bleeding.

 

[~sudsshane]

Bimmer740

There are several non HE detergents on the market that are low sudsing and formulated to work in a Front Load Machine.
Buy Fab powder or Fresh Start, (but never use non HE liquid). I have used both in my LG-Tromm Front Load machine with success. Also, Persil Megapearls for Colors is an excellent choice for Front Load Machines. Andy Weter (AndyElectrolux)has a Miele dealership and I am sure he could cut you a good deal on some Persil.
Btw, where on Long Island are you?

 

[funguy10]

Bimmer740, Why else did you chost the Bosch over the Fisher & Paykel? It does not need a pedastal either because it is Top-Loading, obviously.

 

[bimmer740]

Sudsshane, I live in Commack, its part of Suffolk county only a few minutes from the Nassau border on the North Shore. Are you from LI?

Funguy10, Although we liked the Fisher & Paykel, we were a bit disappointed with the life of the unit. For what we paid for the machine it should have lasted longer, IMO. The second reason why we didnt choose to buy another Fisher & Paykel is because the Bosch does use considerably less water. Most homes on Long Island have a cespool and there for the less water you put into it the better. Its costly to have it pumped and its also a complete nightmare!! Lastly, the Bosch is supposed to wash clothes better than the F&P (I cant comment on this yet, its too early). I really like how the clothes at the end of the wash are fluffed and not stuck to the sides of the drum like they are in the F&P, which would occasionally leave streaks in the clothes until they were washed again.

 

[aldspinboy]

Steven hello i was woundering what cycles do like so far? and have you witness faster drying times then the f&p pair? and do you like the water levels? i hope to have been some help on the bosch pair the sell alot in the white goods buisness. What detergents & additives are you likeing so far Thanks Darren K

 

[bimmer740]

Wash Cycle TImes

We have been noticed that the Bosch has been doubling the time of the wash, running an entire program cycle over again when it really should have been ending. According to the instruction book it is because the machine has sensed to many suds in the water and needs to wash them out. Adjusting the amount of soap has seemed to help but we are now using less than the recommened amout of soap according to the bottle of Tide HE. For a large load we measure below the "1" mark on the cap and I worry that this isnt enough detergent to really get the clothes clean. Is this a common problem in modern front loader?

 

[appnut]

Steven, I wouldn't worry about it at all. First of all, there probably still quite a bit of detergent residue left in your clothes from the F&P. Second, Bosch is known to be very sensitive to sudsing as well as producing more suds than most of the other front loaders on the market. And yes, you're over-dosing on deterent if it's having to consistently go into a suds routine to remove excess suds. That should be your first clue.

 

[panthera]

Steven,

I have a suggestion. Run a load of heavy cottons (towels, for instance) through a wash cycle with hot water and a water softener like Calgon.
This will rid them of residual detergent and give you a working index for judging what is too much and what is ok on detergent level.
Living between both cultures, I have to say that I am still not all that crazy about American HE detergents. I think they are overpriced and not really fully adapted.
Contact a Miele or BOSCH dealer who sells European Persil or similar. I know it is outrageously expensive, but buy the smallest box possible and give it a try. Personally, I would take the "Vollwaschmittel" and not the Color variation. American versions of our washers use so much cooler water, even for "hot" than we do that I don't think the Color variation will produce the results you want.
Oh, to answer a question you asked prior to purchase. I have always had Miele or LG. LG was rated better for pet hair the last time I bought a machine, so that is what I went with. I would not wish LG on anyone in the US; here they take care of their customers, there they shit on them. My experience with Miele has been very good. My last Miele is still running, I gave it to friends. Now in its second decade, it has only had one repair...and that was their fault, not the machine's.
Over here in Germany, Miele is more expensive than Bosch, but nowhere near the price it is in the US. It's the snob appeal, I guess. Over time, our consumer guides rank the machines more or less thus:
Miele
AEG
BOSCH/Siemens/Constructa

and then everything else.

If you ever get a chance to pick up a used Miele, do. If the cesspool problem is that bad, why not go for the grey water solution. That is legal now in Long Island, no? Thought I read something about that a while back.
In any case, BOSCH is a good choice, 10000x better than anything built by Whirlpool.

Oh, Funguy...just a commment. I, too, get super-duper excited about some topics and regularly get slammed by the UK folk for it. Maybe you should try toning it down just a bit? I base my comments on having worked in the used white goods business, selling new Mieles/AEGs and having worked both with Bauknecht and B/S/H...there is nothing wrong with being young, you'll get over that...but really and truly, since the rest of the world has been using FLs for many decades, and we don't all have them anchored to 15" steel reinforced concrete pads, maybe you should read up on the advances in fuzzy logic and solid state electronics over the last fifty years or so.

 

[bimmer740]

Keven,
Thank you for the information. I think I am going to have to purchase a box of Persil. The "Vollwaschmittel" that you mentioned, is that able to be used for both colors and white?

I have to agree with the Whirlpool comment, they just arent what they used to be. Im a big fan of German products, I have owned several Miele vacuums, my bosch dishwasher a BMW, and now a Mercedes. I dont think I could ever bring myself to buy a Non-German car, the Infiniti's that my parents own just dont seem to compare no matter how much the Japanese try. I love how the Germans pay such close attention to detail, I guess being somewhat OCD its very important to me. LOL Im glad that at least in Europe LG stand behind their products. Its a shame that they dont have the proper service network here in the US, since they seem to make some good products and at a resonable price.

 

[panthera]

Vollwaschmittel

Implies you can use it for everything except woolens and silk. In reality, it has bleaches and, over time, would fade colors if you washed in 140°F water constantly.
But for normal, colorfast things you wash in "American" warm temperatures I think you will find it works wonders.
Laundress could give you a very thorough breakdown of which European detergents work best in US conditions.
("Voll-" in this context implies "universal" or "Complete", "Waschmittel" is a compound noun, Wasch=Laundry or (who'd a' thunk it?: wash!) and "Mittel" is a substance or compound.
A Color Waschmittel has less aggressive bleaches (in the US it may have very aggressive bleaches, but they don't kick in until the water is very very hot. Practical, when you think about it)
.
A "Schon" Waschmittel is for delicates, "fine" things...

German Vollwaschmittel tend to have enzymes for gummy thing,s fats, proteins and to "snip" off loose cellulose fibers. Since our sewage treatment plants permit the use of phosphates and other really powerful surfactants, they can get clothes clean and still leave them soft. My feeling is, however, that over time my clothes fade a bit more here in Europe than they do in the US. Since the only real difference is the detergent, I suspect that, over time, a Vollwaschmittel and really hot water is not the best choice for really bright colors.

 

[dudleyfuddpucke]

I dont think I could ever bring myself to buy a Non-German c

Guess it depends on what you place on importance, Bimmer740. After owning two dozen of every kind of car imaginable the past 30 years, I don't think I cold every bring myself to own another German car, due to the lack of attention to detail (i.e. the endless breakdowns, not to mention the ungodly prices for spare/maintenance parts, etc.) There's a good reason VW, Mercedes, etc. are at or near the bottom on all reliability surveys (I think it was '05 or '06 that the Merc. E class was rated the fastest decaying car sold in the U.S.)

As it pertains to this forum, I avoided Miele, Whirlpool FLers, etc. for the same reason. Too many friends and business associates with them having too many problems, short life span, etc.

Cheers!

 

[miele4848]

Durability of german products

Sadly our products aren't as shiny as their reputation anymore...the International market forced the european manufacturers to produce cheaper products. 20 jears ago you had to save money, a lot of money to buy you the things you wanted. they were expensive but lasted a long time. Saving is a typical german tradition, so most of the asset in Germany is well saved on private bank accounts.

Today, every week new apliences are available, cheap and crappy, but once they're sold nobody cares how long they last or how they perform. even though japanese cars are ceaper they are allways more reliable than any german car.

Miele & Bosch are the only major german washer brands that still produce quality.

 

[funguy10]

Bimmer740, Are you using HE detergent? The Bosch requires HE detergent being a front loader. Also, one of the main consumer complaints about Fisher & Paykel washers is that they do not rinse good without doing a deep rinse. You can avert this by choosing the "Softener Rinse" option on the control panel. Also, we do have good Front-Loaders avalible in the USA. The most popular one currently is the Duet HT by Whirlpool. We do have Bosch Nexxt machines as I have seen them at Lowe's. However, I have never seen Miele, Asko, or AEG machines on sale here. Other machines I like include the LG TROMM SteamWasher, the Samsung SilverCare, and the Duet Steam/Kenmore HE5t SteamTeam. We also have the Frigidaire(Electrolux) Affinity, the GE Adora, the Maytag Epic and the Duet Sport. It is great to know we have them because it is basically only them and HE Top-Loaders such as the Kenmore Oasis. The conventional Top-Loaders are based on the generic design of either Whirlpool or Electrolux.

 

[jhducote]

Fresh Start

Steven,

I will suggest Fresh Start as an alternative detergent. I have used it in my Miele W1926 for 6+ years and have been pleased with the results. I use about 1/3 of the recommended amount for top loaders (about 2 tablespoons plus or minus depending on specific load size). The clothes come out clean and free of detergent residue.

Congrats on the new Bosch's. Very good friends nearby in San Franciso have had their Nexxt washer and dryer for about two years now with no problems, and they are pleased with them.

A quick question to Panthera. Where can I find Persil for sale in Europe? I was recently in Biberach, Germany and Alba, Italy and went to a couple of local, large format grocery stores. They did not stock Persil. Granted these are smaller towns, and perhaps the distribution network focuses on larger towns. I would like to pick up a box or two next time I am over and will appreciate any tips on where to find it.
John.