Now I need all the positive vibes possible....

[mieletag]

Now I do not know anything about this machine, but does the main wash pump motor that you had re-wound have a start switch, more or less a remote start relay mounted elsewhere on the machine? If so, when the motor gets up to 75 percent speed, usually in a second or less, it should drop out the start winding. If this is a split phase induction motor, it should either have a centrifugal start switch in the motor, or a remote mounted current relay.

Either the relay is not starting the motor with the start windings or it is not dropping them out after it is up to speed. Don't know if this machine has a run capacitor either.

If it does, it may be out tolerance and be the motor may be drawing more current than it should be if the phase angle is not correct.

 

[hippiedoll]

oh darn!!!

kenmoreguy89:
i hope you can get this dishwasher fixed and working for you....

fingers crossed for GOOD LUCK!!!

;o)

 

[kenmoreguy89]

I don't think to see a relay (which I know the shape but not what's for) or such a thing anywhwere in the machine...
I can just see it has a capacitor..
Sorry but for the rest it's greek to me...I just know what the tag says..so that it is a single phase motor...voltage, amperage and rpm..

Please could you explain better? I am not learned about motors..
Thank you!

 

[kenmoreguy89]

I post pics of motor contacts maybe it tells something..
F: HOT
N:neutral
the other is a red wire i don't know..just know it went there as i was told so and it was before also...
Both N blue wire and the red wire are connected to COND which is the capacitor...
On the pline on the side I connected the black , then blue and red..
The black were 2 wires gathered in one contact...

 

[kenmoreguy89]

I checked the electric schematics, a relay is not mentioned anywhere.
it says motor has 2 windings, a main winding and an auxiliary winding.

 

[mieletag]

Sorry to get back with you late. I am hazarding a guess that the auxiliary winding is the start winding, and that white module mounted on the side of the motor might be a current relay.

I can't quite tell from the picture, but does that white box/module have any arrow or direction indicators on it, telling which way it should be mounted? Also, can you hear anything rattle or jingle around inside of it?

As for the condenser/capacitor, is it a metal can or plastic? Does it have any value markings, such as μF and voltage, with a tolerance range?

Also, I read through most of this thread, but is the wash pump also the drain pump, or does it have a separate drain pump? Didn't know if this motor reverses or not.

 

[mieletag]

On a second glance at your pictures, I guess the white module/box is just a wiring terminal box. I am assuming this machine runs on 240 VAC 50 Hz?

Still makes me wonder if after all this time the condenser/capacitor dried out or the dielectric separations inside the capacitor deteriorated to the pointed of a shorted/opened/weak condenser/capacitor, especially after just having the motor re-wound. I work in the HVAC field, and believe me, if a run capacitor is weak/shorted/opened, the PSC motor that it is connected to does not like it. Amperage draw will sometimes increase quite a bit when this happens.

I wonder if the motor itself has or had an internal overload switch.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

The white module on the motor is the box where contacts go, see the pic I attached, no other boxes on the motor...
If you look on older pics you can see how it's connected...
I don't know about the auxiliary winding it mentions, just that it includes that as full part of the motor block...
I wish i could post pics but I lost the bluetooth usb so can't upload pics on the pc (I don't have a smartphone)...
The capacitor is a metal one, it's a kind of weird one as each side has a contact divided in 2 pins, on one side I see 2 blue ones and on the other just a red one..and an empty pin.
If i am seeing right, looks like a blue one come from up where the timer is then arrives to the pin and then another blue goes out from the second pin of the same contact and go to motor, while the red on the other side go/comes to/from the motor....
Looks like the capacitor itself has nothing written on it but look like to have read that on the schematics....I need to check again..
I know the motor tag (which is the cap of the contact box) had written on it μF=10

 

[kenmoreguy89]

Yes, capacitor is mentioned μF=10 as well.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

"Still makes me wonder if after all this time the condenser/capacitor dried out or the dielectric separations inside"
All the rest it's greek to me as I ignore all these electric things and I really have no clue of what you're talking....
But the dishwasher sat unused for 50 years in an empty house's kitchen.
if there was something to dry out inside it may well be.
it worked first time I used it, then as you can read in the middle of wash it did what it did...so you think it may be the capacitor?
i would try change that out but don't know what type to look for and how to connect it.
Yes machime works withe European voltage and hertz/cycles.

 

[mieletag]

Mmmm, now I am curious if the motor shop has a electrical multimeter with a capacitance check mode. Did the motor shop also look at the capacitor when the motor was re-wound?

The only other thing I could think of is if the timer contacts are oxidized or something like that and is creating a high resistance connection, where the motor is not getting full voltage and current to it to run properly.

Did the motor not operate correctly as soon as it started after you had it re-wound, or did it take a while to do this again?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to narrow it down to what could be causing this.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

Don't feel sorry, i know you're trying helping me and i am so grateful for that!
I just brought the motor to the shop upon suggestion I had, as I tried getting help from people who has one also, and they told me that it was motor that went kaput and had to be re-winded, they said it could be a stpid thing such a spider net..which it was weird to me as I could see motor very dirty work as well...
The capacitor is screwed to the body of the machine...and didn't touch it.
Timer has a plastic cover on it, though contacts are out and are as shiney as new....I can't see oxidations...
No the motor immediately did the thing and same noise it did before when it started the problem, as soon as it started I could immediately hear that hum sound it did before, it would run and pump inside but it was like it was on effort and kind of vibrate, a vibrating electric sound sort of a hum, it ran for like 4 seconds and smoke started coming out the bottom so immediately stopped it...and here we are again...
Do you think I need to have re-winded it again? I see the windings in it kind of darkened up a bit, look to have a dark patina like small drops, I were thinking if when they rewind them they use wax or paraffin to lubricate the copper, that may explain the smoke that smelled like burnt wax and dark patina that looks like melted wax....

 

[mieletag]

Re-winding the motor kind of depends on if the windings got hot enough to break down the varnish that insulates the copper. There is a device called a megaohm metter or megger that sends a brief but high voltage pulse through the windings to see if the insulation is broke down enough to warrant re-winding.

Although, if someone has a decent enough ohm meter that can do a conductance test (nanosiemens), this can determine that as well, just not quite as accurate.

Sometimes that varnish can still smell a little, if it gets a little warm till it is fully cured/dried.

How long did the motor operate this second time after being re-wound?

 

[kenmoreguy89]

Well, i don't know anyone who can do that, maybe the electrician at our company, but i don't think they have that megger thing, just the ohm...
But I think it's better to have it re-detached and re-winded another time, it may still be okay, but i want it to last as long as possible without repairs needed and this attempt may have wekeaned it to shorten it's future life.... perhpas if it's not completely to re-wind they may recondition what and if has suffered.....
It was really a matter of seconds anyway, i guess it didn't run more than 6 seconds before i turned it off, 4 seconds and it started to smoke... plus i ran it about 2 seconds today trying to find the right click to drain it out.
yesterday night I was just too sad and mad to lay around it, I developped a terrible headache for the nerve i had, let alone the neck and back for all the troubles putting it back again...

 

[mieletag]

Sorry to hear that.

I don't blame you for wanting to re-wind the motor. As for draining the unit, does it have a separate drain pump? If so, does this pump work OK as far as you can tell?

Usually, replacing a capacitor is not too expensive. Don't worry if the terminals on a new one are a little different or the size of the cap is different. Try to get the same exact 10 μF that it calls for, also, if it has a listed voltage on the capacitor, which will be higher than the mains going to it, try to get one listed at or above the voltage rating. You can always go higher in voltage, just not lower.

The way most of these capcitors are made anymore, having a higher voltage one will dissapate heat a little better and will be a bit more sturdy dielectrically.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

Yes, it has a separate pump, the pump looks working fine, drained it today, actually the pump works better than any dishwasher I have ever seen having this kind of pump as it drains in seconds, very powerful for it's kind, maybe it's also due to a well designed snail not the pump itself as it's the same standard kind....funny that they didn't use reverse motor so the same wash motor to drain like their washing machines, early indesits washing machines drained as they spun using one motor, very rare for a front loader...
Anyway....so you think it may be the capacitor?
I will look for one tomorrow hopefully electrician didn't go on Holiday.....
Do you think I'll be able to put it back where the old one was...what if it has a different thing to hold it?
What you mean higher in voltage? I see many of these have written 450 v...you mean one like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CONDENSATOR...tri_Elettrodomestici&var=&hash=item33828dd0ba

This is written being okay for washing machines, motor pumps, compressors, and motors geneally, is listed being 450 v max and i can chose the microfarads...
I am afraid on how I'll be able to attach it where the old one was...[this post was last edited: 12/26/2014-20:49]

 

[kenmoreguy89]

nevermind I see many have the same nut who holds them
I hope to find one in town and get it tomorrow already.
Thank you! Let's hope it's this then!

 

[mieletag]

Yes, as far as the 450v written on a capacitor, if it is that or higher voltage, you would be fine. As for attaching, I have seen the stud mounted ones like you are describing, as far as most that I see in my industry have a half-round clamp holding them in, or if the new capacitor is bigger, you can use some pre-drilled metal strapping.

Hope everything works out!

 

[kenmoreguy89]

I am still looking for the damn capacitor, the only furnished electric material suopplier in town seems to be on Holidays (I try since three days now) and he didn't even bother putting a sheet saying till when in the shop door..... ahhhh living in what's becoming a ghost town!
I went into a small electric shop I magically found opened this morning (it was closed as well yesterday) hoping for some luck, but as I thought they didn't have motor capacitos in regular stock, but the man looked around and gave me one he saved from some jobs they did, he gave me it for free, though it's a 12 microfarads instead of 10 I need...will it change that much? Just to try???
If I have time I'll try going to the nearby town, where there's a very large supplier... otherwise will order one online over ebay or something... but times will lengthen, I can't stand anymore the dishwasher in the middle of the kitchen, I want try see if works ands if it's the capacitor and then will detach motor again and will bring it to re-wind another time, hopefully they do it quickly.. body and finishes are getting scratches and bumps also even though it's over a blanket...
I was so happy as it was so new....and am reducing it like an used one puttering and fiddling trying to fix it....my sister while helping me didn't hold it well while I were pushing the motor and she was inside screwing it to place, and machine was pushed toward the back cover that was laid on the wall... and made evident scratches and bumps on the chromed front frame finish....I didn't notice of it immediately..I thought she were holding and would think of it... but evidently she didn't..it's not her fault anyway...It's me..i should have imagined she didn't think of it... but just to screw inside, she was so concentrated on doing that she didnt'n think of anything else..she's not inclined for these jobs..though it was the only person available to help me...my father is always busy at the farm...

It shouldn't have gone like this!!! ;(
[this post was last edited: 12/30/2014-04:27]

 

[kenmoreguy89]

Ok...managed to go to the nearby town, got the capacitor, will mount it on later..
Pray for me...
Also stopped in a new thrift store just in front of the shop, I was told it being big and well furnished, with honest prices, actually to me it was small and total delusion, stuff priced randomly and not in line with real value...
There was a nice Gasfire stove though,price was not so great but was in VGC, sadly not the model I like for my new house otherwise I'd have made a thought about being so near to me..