Old cars vs New cars

[twintubdexter]

must have been a bad batch of popcorn...

<span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #008000;">Some old cars waiting for the double feature to start. The Salton Sea is not all that far from the Palm Springs area. Occasionally the summer breeze brings the fragrance of algae and thousands of rotting fish to my back yard. Let's move the picnic indoors.</span>

 

http://https//www.facebook.com/michael.deligio/videos/10210027562077912/

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

I want my Hardtop--my FOUR-DOOR Hardtop!

-- Dave

 

[johnrk]

car love

I keep reading in various sources that young people, particularly millenials, are bypassing car ownership these days. Obviously, that's only in areas where there is alternative means of getting about, but I do think that the love affair Americans have with cars is ending. I won't go into how boring or look-alike or motivated by ever-more electronic toys--you all know that anyway.

You know what I don't understand? Why have people willingly given up color choices? I went to the Benz website recently to check out their sedans and there are only a few colors there, mostly variations of silver and brown. We generally have only a few choices of interior colors: Mouse-fur gray, mouse-fur brown, gray/black or some approximation of beige. Where are the blues, the greens, the reds?

Eddie, I owned the '66 LeMans version of your '67 Skylark. It was amazing to drive, that same 2-speed auto, the Pontiac 326 instead of the Buick 340. It was just the right size. I owned a '72 Buick Skylark convertible, the last year, in a deep green with matching interior and white top. I sure with I had it back!

It used to be typical for Cadillac, for example, to offer 10-20 upholstery colors and combinations even on the DeVilles. These creepy little Cadillacs now look like something a high school kid drew in study hall. That, or ugly 'sport' utilities that are disguised Chevy suburbans.

I like the safety of my modern car. But gone are the days when we used to eagerly take a Saturday and go hit all the local car dealers to look at the new models every fall.

 

[lordkenmore]

Limited color choices are not a new thing. There was, of course, that line about the Model T: "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black."


 

Past that, though, it seems like color choices have been limited for years. I don't recall any car I knew much about since the 1980s that had more than a small selection of color choices. It's always amazed me seeing lists of colors for 1960s US cars which were longer and had more variety than the case in recent history.

 

I have wondered if part of the limited choices isn't a move to make things easier for the car maker, particularly one assembling a car across the world. Limited colors mean fewer variations for the car maker to deal with.

 

[maytag85]

It seems like a lot of millienials lease cars, instead of owning a car. I may have been born in 1999, wich makes me a millienial, but I have like the style of vintage cars. It almost seems like I was born in the wrong generation. My first car is a 1986 Chevy Camaro Z28, and I plan on keeping that car for as long as I can. All millienials care about, is having all the electronic crap that you don't need in a car, and they complain about how older cars don't have a lot of technology. Millienials are spoiled, and they think they are entitled to have everything. I can go on and on on why I don't like my generation!

 

[thomasortega]

Being an industrial designer and working with destructive tests so many years, I definitely prefer newer cars because of safety.Some models are interesting, because the little Philippe Starck near me loves "weird" looking cars.

I am probably the only person in the world that loves the cosmetic design in some Citroen, Renaults, Nissan Juke, Fiat 500, Mini, Ford Ka, Fiat Mobi, Fiat Panoramica (considered the ugliest car ever made)

On the other hand i hate some american designs like the 90's Ford Taurus (upside down soup plate) and Ford Escort (absolutely nothing to do with the European/Brazilian Escort)

I loved the design on Chevrolet HHR and SSR, but i owned a HHR and it was the worst crap I've ever had. When i bought it brand new, the driver window wasn't working. Think of leaving the dealer with a brand new car that was already "fixed". Anyway, the next day i left the dealer with my brand new car with the fixed window and before the first block there was a speet bump and the window simply fell. 5 minutes after leaving the dealer "with my brand new car that already had a window fixed", i was back to the dealer with "a brand new car that had the windows fixed but it broke and the car was full of glass everywhere" Add to that 23 visits to the dealer, a total of 4.5 months driving a lender car out of the 6 months I owned that crap. People was already thinking i worked at the Chevrolet dealer because i was there "clocking in" almost every day. Until I threatened to sue the dealer and they accepted the return and refunded me the money. Chevrolet never again in my life.

I am the kind of 8 or 80 guy. I love cars that are tiny (like the Smart, Mini or Ford Ka) or huge cars, like the Ford Expedition I dream about having someday.

And even loving strange looking designs, please, don't ever remind me that Chrysler car which name that has two letters should never be mentioned. If I could I would beat the designers that created the PT cruiser with "Havainanas" sandals.

Oh, and I also love the "old" new beetle. But i didn't fall in love with the "new" new beetle design.

If i would drive a classic car? like 1950s, 60s or 70s, no f-word present continuous way! As Ralph Nader said once, they're unsafe at any speed! My husband's life and my life are much more important than style. Some models are amazingly beautiful, but they all are designed to keep the car nearly intact but full of dead bodies in a crash.

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Where I once thought "a great a car is not complete without a power seat", I have gone to abhor the thing--it's slow to move, and while I've gotten used to my wife needing it forward (she is real short) I really dislike the thing being up above the floor, so I have to wait during that power adjustment for it to come down...

I miss the days of a manual seat (which her car has--but the Chevy Cruz puts the latch way under the side closest to the console, so you have to be sitting in it, because it's so hard to reach, but I need to move the seat first just to get in!)...

I've seen power seats in cars, of which the people who drove, that probably don't need them (one couple I knew had one, but only "he" was the only driver, until "she" learned, got her license, then wrecked their car, hence afterwards, gave up driving, and retired from work, so then she no longer needed a car, all the while there was a difference in height, but her reason for driving became when "he" fell into ill health and then died)...

Now, a CRUISE CONTROL! --That is something cars old and new NEED to have--I see old cars that often have everything but THEM (surprisingly my wife's Cruz, a NEW car doesn't') and maybe a sun/moonroof, and to me, that can make a car relatively underivable (I wonder how you can enjoy driving something even that vintage without!)... So I hate driving my wife's for that reason...

-- Dave

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

And yes, one other thing about power seats: Even the reclining is done for you--I have to do my non-driving reclining there, in the fully non-powered passenger seat of my Chrysler 200, or enjoy it in either driver or passenger side of my wife's Cruz; only good thing about her car, perfect to recline-relax in...

Also what's with the need for lumbar support? Seems as though that shows up in a lot of new cars, though sometimes I welcome the back-rake adjustment, though new cars are just as obsessed w/ height adjustment on their seats, too (see my pre. post)...

-- Dave

 

[petek]

Have a bad back and you'll apprectiate that lumbar support..  I had  it in my 84 Volvo.  My Forester also has it thankfully, and it's powered.  However, rarely does anyone drive my car so the drivers seat is seldom moved. It's also got a giant sunroof which I seldom open.. I can live without a sunroof.  The must haves for me were power windows , locks and air conditioning.. pretty much standard today.  I really really really like the adaptive cruise control on the Subaru.. it's well worth it. I only wished it had the rain sensing wipers that my little Mazda had.. 

 

[norgeway]

One of the most beautiful cars I ever got to drve

Was a 1978 Chrysler New Yorker Brougham, White, with a red vinyl top, White leather seats, red dash, carpet and door panels, and every button in the book, it was the most comfortable thing I ever sat down in and the best riding too, You absolutely didn't feel anything , WONDERFUL!A good friend was a mechanic and several times I got to take cars back to there owners and this was one of them, I also got to drive a 55 Desoto Fireflite Sportsman with factory air,and several other great cars, The Desoto was a local doctors car that he drove from 55 until the 90s when he quit driving, It had EVERY option that Chrysler offered, he also had a 64 Imperial and a 78 New Yorker like the white one but his was burgundy inside and out, New stuff is so boring..LOL

 

[petek]

My friend Dennis had a new 75 NY Brougham coupe  back in the day (all black exterior and leather interior) . It was gorgeous. 

 

[lordkenmore]

Cruise control

has never been an item on my "must have" list. A relative commented that once I had it I'd find it indispensable or something like that. Maybe if I ever had it. (Most of my cars were too low end to have cruise control. The last two cars' cruise control systems were broken.) But I look at the nature of the traffic where I live, and think cruise control is pointless. There is no set it on 60, and zoom for hours and hours with no interruption here... And I don't take road trips to places where traffic moves better.

 

 

 

[gusherb]

The only time I get to use cruise control anymore is in the western states. So I find it mostly useless. What I DO find useful would be adaptive cruise control, that I could use all day long on the expressways around here.

 

[countryguy]

All of my cars have had cruise control and I couldn't do without it. I use it every time I am in the car. The cruise control on my Lincoln MKC can be set to be either adaptive or regular. I like the adaptive cruise control but I find that the gap it leaves with the car in front is too big even when I have it set at the closest setting....in very heavy traffic, other cars are always cutting in front which just causes my car to slow down even more....very annoying to me. I usually end up putting my foot on the accelerator thereby overriding the adaptive cruise control, so that I can lessen the gap.

Gary

 

[philr]

I like vehicles that are old enough so I don't have to deal with depreciation so I never had a car that was less then 10 years old. Currently, I don't have a vehicle that's even close to be just 10 years old! I never sold a vehicle for less than I bought it. I did give away a few to friends but I won't count that as I didn't sell these!

I used to drive my 1960s cars daily but the first one I got back in October of 1992 (a few months before I was old enough to drive!) was the same age as my current daily driver which is a 1993 Toyota. And with over 239,000 miles, my Toyota has more than twice the mileage that any of my 1960s and 1970s cars ever had.

There are more safety features in my 1975 Buick Electra than there are in my 1993 Toyota pickup but I can't afford to drive the old Buicks daily so I mostly drive my newer vehicles with less safety features!

I still have my 1965 Wildcat and 1967 Riviera taking most of the space in my garage (along with another 1966 GM product, I'll let you guess what it is as it's visible on the picture below!) so I have to leave my drivers outside and my Electra is stored in my appliance storage.

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

More safety-features on that '75 Buick? Well, I bet it's not those frameless panes of glass... --Nor the lack of pillars between those four doors, but like I said, I want my hard-top, four-doors, and all!

No roll-bar, either...

-- Dave

 

[philr]

Dave, It does have 5 mph bumpers that all cars had back then, door beams and dual stage air bags with more advanced technology than most late 1990s cars had (and certainly better than my current 1993 Toyota pickup that doesn't even have a driver side airbag!).

I was in an accident with a strong side impact with my former 1968 Buick 4 door hardtop and while the car wasn't fixable, the side glass shattered and the rear door, the roof and quarter panel were seriously bent but the center post didn't even move and the front door still opened and closed perfectly. I wasn't so lucky with another similar 1993 Toyota that I had (but this time, it was a frontal collision)

This link below shows pictures of 1970s GM cars with airbags. I also added a few from my car. Fortunately, I didn't have to test them yet but apparently, they did save a few lives. I uploaded the pictures from the pickup in which I had an accident that left me with a few problems and pictures of 1970s cars with similar or worse frontal collisions in which their owners were apparently saved by the airbags.

http://https//www.flickr.com/groups/1619498@N22/pool/

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

OK, Phil... I read everything, and I believe I'd seen some other photo's of your '75 Buick & probably recalling it having those airbags...

Surely there could have been more of those GM cars ordered with 'em, but buyers weren't willing to sacrifice the traditional instrument panel layout, and I wouldn't have been either...

I see the armrest-stealing passenger seat, too! (I like the dual-armrests that GM briefly experimented with, putting them in the '77-'78 models more frequently, if not pushing the d'Elegance (Cadillac) models that featured them standard (the '79's, onward, had the not-so-attractive, to me, seating pattern and back to the traditional-GM split-front seat) & encouraged a number of owners to get... (I would have!)

-- Dave

 

[vacerator]

Those old 70's

land yachts were tanks, wether they were colonade coupes, sedans or hard tops.
They did however lack crumple zones to absorb impact. The other main draw back was fuel economy.
If the frame wasn't bent in a collision, a new front dog house could be put on, negating the vehicle being totaled if it was new enough. Minor frame distortions were often straightened. The 5 mph bumper often survived unscaved as the car nose dived upon braking, and or retracted back on it's hydraulic mounts. If not, a hole was drilled into the side of the shock absorber, and pressure relieved, an a new one installed.
If you were belted in, with both lap and shoulder belts, chances of injury were greatly decreased as you had so much more space inside, and more bulk around the vehicle. Even without air bags. Today, they are detrimental because of the lack of room and heft. Even then some kill you.
My sister was broadsided in a '76 Pontiac Catalina by a '79 Cadillac going 35 mph in the right front wheel. Spun her around 90 degrees, but she was not hurt. The wheel was crooked, the hood raised up 3 feet sideways. It was a total loss because it happened in the 80's. That was a near mint car too. She bought it from an older neighbor. Only had 76,000 miles on it.

 

[johnrk]

New vs Old

I adore cars, have my whole life. I was born in '55, my parents had a TOL '54 Pontiac Star Chief coupe, last year of the straight eight, and with built-in A/C! I've owned a bunch of vintage cars myself.

However, we shouldn't let nostalgia color our views too much. My parents always bought the best tires available on their cars--and we still had flats. Those old engines did well if you got 10K on plugs, and of course points, generator brushes, valves if not hydraulic, and so on.

I drive a 2004 Corolla now in my retirement. Having had a number of company cars, it's lived its life in my garage. The amazing thing to me is that it's never had a single fault to require going to the dealer! None. Who knows, I may drive this little jewel until I die. No reason to change right now, anyway.

My first new car was a 1974 red Super Beetle with sunroof. Within a couple of months of getting it, I had a set of VDO gauges in a module installed on the dash at the dealership. By the time it was a year old it had started pegging the voltmeter and boiling battery acid out; those of my age group know that the battery sat under the back seat. All the expected parts and components were replaced more than once, still did it in no perceptible pattern. I learned that by keeping an umbrella across the floorboard in the back, I could whack the seat frame while driving and at times it'd go back down. And no, grounding wasn't the issue, we went through all that. It was still doing that at times by the time I traded it in, in 1977. We didn't have a 'lemon law' then or I'd have gotten redress.

Whenever my parents would buy a new car in the sixties and into the seventies, it was my job when they got it home, to go over the new car and write down all the defects and stuff that needed tightening or adjusting. There was always a legal pad's page of things. These days? The last 3 new cars I've bought haven't really needed anything.

 

[iheartmaytag]

but buyers weren't willing to sacrifice the traditional

GM built 10,000 ACRS (Air Cushion Restraint System) Air-bag equipped cars from 1973-1976. Most were in the Cadillac and Oldsmobile models some migrated to the Buick line.

More weren't ordered, because they weren't offered as a line item to order. They were a test fleet to see how ACRS operated in the real world. GM said they should have sold the air-bags and given away the cars as they lost approximately $10,000 on each vehicle equipped.

Soon after their release air-bag collision stories began to appear. In most cases they were all positive. Though fought by the auto industry, where most opted for the less expensive passive seat belts that could easily be overridden, and were not as effective; Chrysler Chairman Lee A. Iacocca decided to begin equipping certain vehicles in 1989, and their entire fleet in 1990 with driver side air bags. Then the two 1989 Chrysler LeBarons crashed head-on in Culpepper, Virginia In April 1990. National news picked up the story, the cars were purchased by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety IIHS. This crash is one of the most analyzed car crashes in history as it was the first to involve two air bag equipped vehicles.

After that it started to become a war as to who could put their air bags in when. Of course GM held out until 1994 when they were forced to have at least driver side air bags as the automatic belts were not meeting the mandates any longer.

All of this, a fight that Ralph Nader fought for many decades. Today it is not uncommon to see cars with six, eight, 10 air bags. Including side curtain, roll over and knee protection. [this post was last edited: 10/23/2017-13:34]

 

[vacerator]

Some would say

too many government controls, but Ralph Nader was a huge advocate for vehicle safety.
Iv'e watched those old crash test video's. There is no compromise for the modern safety cage of a vehicle which stays in tact in a crash.
Foot well intrusion braking feet and legs, A pillar deformation causing concussions and skull fractures, old non collapsing steering columns and wheels, etc. The deadly T-Bone side collision where the head hits the B or C pillar, all improved with side and curtain air bags.
I'd never drive an antique classic as a daily driver anyway.

 

[philr]

Harley,
The 1973 Chevrolet Impala 4 door sedans that were equipped with the Air Cushion Restraint System (and a 1973 Oldsmobile dashboard to accommodate them) were part of the test fleet that was eventually sold to the public through Chevy dealerships in 1975 after they were retrofitted with lap belts like regular production cars that GM sold with this option (see the 5 first pictures I uploaded in this post for more details).

The Buick, Olds and Cadillac cars that had airbags were regular production cars that came with standard lap belts from the beginning. The option became available a few months after the beginning of the 1974 production in November-December of 1974. The NHTSA still collected data on these cars if they were involved in an accident but they were still regular production cars. Here's a link that shows the sticker in my car's glovebox. When I got it in November of 2001, the phone number had been reused for the National Terrorist Hotline. I tried to call as I had a concern about the warning light coming on sometimes and my GM dealer was clueless about what to do with that light or how to service that system! I managed to fix it by myself and to buy some spare parts and test equipment...

I've seen what seems to be an even distribution of cars equipped with airbags in the full size Buick, Oldsmobile and Cadillac lines for the 3 years it was available but much less 1976 models of each brand with this option, it was a low volume option as less than 1% of cars had it but dealers or customers could order it under the option code AR4.

The highest volume model with airbags was the 1973 Chevrolet Impala 4 door sedans that were the experimental cars.

Buick had to redesign it's the passenger part of it's otherwise carried over 1973 dashboard for 1974 models and move the glove box to the upper part of the instrument panel to accommodate the passenger airbags (pictures 6-7), the 1975 models followed with a completely redesigned dashboard (pics 8-9-10) that also had it's glove box up.

Olds had a completely redesigned instrument panel for 1974 (11-12) but I guess it wasn't for that purpose as there were many test vehicles including early 1970s Olds and the 1973 Chevy fleet that had a a 1973 Olds dashboard that had airbags. Cadillac also had a brand new dashboard for 1974 but they didn't bother moving the glove box up so cars equipped with airbags had to be fitted with a small lockable compartment under the dashboard to fit the power trunk button and to store small items (pictures 13-14).

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Definitely where necessity was the mother of invention! That OLDS dash in a Chevy?! I wouldn't have thought of such a drastic measure, even for safety...--Just made something more "Chevrolet", rather than borrow...

As for the Cadillac, I can see an influence on Chrysler putting their glove box under the dash the way Cadillac did, only making me wonder of the "planned likelihood" of ever utilizing airbags, there; those big-bodied Chrysler models from 1974-1978 had a busy dash w/ everything center-mounted, there...

-- Dave

 

[iheartmaytag]

The 1,000 1973 Chevrolets were part of the test fleet on Government lease. They were retrofitted with lap/shoulder belts once they came off lease in order to qualify for sale to the public. GM has a history of using lease vehicles as their test fleets, as they remain the true owner of the vehicle and thus have control of it's disposal. Remember the first electric vehicles tested in California, when GM pulled them out of lease they were all ordered destroyed.

The 10,000 public test fleet (real world testing) were Cadiallacs and Oldsmobiles, however, Ford beat GM to the market by building an experimental test fleet in 1971. I found very little on their data, but I assumed they were their large cars the LTD, Marquis, and Lincolns.

The History of Airbags:

"In 1971, the Ford car company built an experimental airbag fleet. General Motors tested airbags on the 1973 model Chevrolet automobile that was only sold for government use. 1973, Oldsmobile Toronado was the first car with a passenger airbag intended for sale to the public.

General Motors later offered an option to the general public of driver side airbags in full-sized Oldsmobile's and Buick's in 1975 and 1976 respectively. Cadillacs were available with driver and passenger airbags options during those same years."

 

[philr]

The first Buick with airbags was a 1974 Electra built in December of 1973, just two weeks after the first Oldsmobile was made with this option.

I have parted out one 1974 Electra to keep the airbags, the computer/recorder and the sensors, the 1974 Buick has a different passenger side module as the shape of the dashboards changed but the rest of the parts are the same as on my 1975 Electra.

I don't know where you got the information you quoted that Cadillac and Olds were part of a public test fleet and that Buick and Olds had driver side airbag only and that it was available much later on Buick models but I can tell you it's not the case! The ACRS option was available starting in late 1973 on 1974 Buick LeSabre, Electra 225 and Riviera models as well as on the Olds 88, 98 and Toronado and most Cadillac models. Convertibles and wagons as well as long wheelbase models were not available with ACRS and cars had to be ordered with air conditioning to have airbags too. ALL cars with ACRS had a driver AND a passenger side airbag. My car has that too and so did the 1974 Electra that I parted out.

Cars with a standard tilt steering or tilt-telescopic steering had a credit for these features that had to be deleted with the ACRS (the 1974-76 Buick Riviera had standard tilt steering and the 1975 Buick Park Avenue Deluxe had standard tilt-telescope) it was cheaper to order airbags on these cars than on other models that offered these features as extra-cost.

Ford did experiments with airbags in the early seventies and some Allstate ads showed these experimental Ford cars and GM did too, even earlier than that.
The picture below shows a 1969 Pontiac Bonneville coupe equipped with a passenger side airbag, note that it's located on the upper part of the instrument panel unlike the 1973-76 models that were equipped with the ACRS.

 

[philr]

Here are the Allstate ads showing some Ford and GM cars. The third picture shows a 1974 Buick Electra production car.

And the spare parts I got from another 1974 Electra including the passenger side module that's a bit different from the 1975-76 module because of the 1975 Buick dashboard redesign in the pictures 5 to 10.

 

[iheartmaytag]

I don't know where you got the information you quoted

"In 1973, GM’s Oldsmobile Toronado became the first car ever with a passenger airbag. Later on, GM made its own air cushion restraint system (ACRS) available as an option for regular production cars such as Cadillacs, Oldsmobile and Buick models during 1974. They made cars equipped with ACRS on the driver side, driver-side knee restraint, and the passenger side. The passenger side airbag protects front passengers, and also included a dual stage deployment, which depended on the force of impact."

https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-airbags-1991232
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/airbags/airbags_invented.html
http://secondchancegarage.com/public/history-of-airbags.cfm
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Air_bag

Then there are all the magazines, and articles I have read since I was about 12. One in Particular Popular Science, I believe it was March 1977 which mentioned the the fleet.
There are more references, but I can't quite produce the bibliography at this time. [this post was last edited: 10/24/2017-14:30]

http://https//didyouknowcars.com/history-of-airbags/

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Re: Post# 955100, Reply# 79--

I thought the downsizing GM gave those full-sized cars was at-least passable in '77--and imagine my surprise, that these weren't the EIGHTIES (as I used to think the '75's w/ the introduction of rectangular headlamps would have been from that era)...!

Ford seemed to have done the same thing a couple years later (1979) as did Chrysler (although late to the PILLARED-Hardtop Party) just for Chrysler to really lag & sag in sales...

I don't anything by Ford has really impressed me since the late-'60's--the '70's stuff other than an occasional Mark IV has never been anything I would have bought "back then" right down to having a whole coral of stuff made by Chrysler and GM... (TWO-BARREL CARBS on all their V-8's, except for FOUR- on the Thirsty Three-Sixty!)

General Motors could not have possibly been expected to keep their stuff in low-slung hardtops past '76 (& even there was too long-overdue for a change) but I can't warm up to the death of the Colonnade meaning I'm put-off by the 'shrinking mid-sized '78's'... The compacts like the Nova and its ilk lasted until 1980, then came the prop-rod hood front-wheel-drive of the Citation and its stablemates, and automakers of 'everything no-longer RWD' on the rampage... --The transmission (on FWD Chrysler products) even got termed Transaxle... (Remember?)

-- Dave

 

[cadman]

And don't forget one of the big incentives of ordering the GM ACRS package....no government mandated starter interlock system.

Phil's comments are correct, there was never a test fleet with Buicks or Cads, only the original Chevrolets. Next time you catch a Seinfeld rerun with Kramer's car, look closely. It's one of the test vehicles(!)