Old cars vs New cars

[johnrk]

New vs Old

I adore cars, have my whole life. I was born in '55, my parents had a TOL '54 Pontiac Star Chief coupe, last year of the straight eight, and with built-in A/C! I've owned a bunch of vintage cars myself.

However, we shouldn't let nostalgia color our views too much. My parents always bought the best tires available on their cars--and we still had flats. Those old engines did well if you got 10K on plugs, and of course points, generator brushes, valves if not hydraulic, and so on.

I drive a 2004 Corolla now in my retirement. Having had a number of company cars, it's lived its life in my garage. The amazing thing to me is that it's never had a single fault to require going to the dealer! None. Who knows, I may drive this little jewel until I die. No reason to change right now, anyway.

My first new car was a 1974 red Super Beetle with sunroof. Within a couple of months of getting it, I had a set of VDO gauges in a module installed on the dash at the dealership. By the time it was a year old it had started pegging the voltmeter and boiling battery acid out; those of my age group know that the battery sat under the back seat. All the expected parts and components were replaced more than once, still did it in no perceptible pattern. I learned that by keeping an umbrella across the floorboard in the back, I could whack the seat frame while driving and at times it'd go back down. And no, grounding wasn't the issue, we went through all that. It was still doing that at times by the time I traded it in, in 1977. We didn't have a 'lemon law' then or I'd have gotten redress.

Whenever my parents would buy a new car in the sixties and into the seventies, it was my job when they got it home, to go over the new car and write down all the defects and stuff that needed tightening or adjusting. There was always a legal pad's page of things. These days? The last 3 new cars I've bought haven't really needed anything.

 

[iheartmaytag]

but buyers weren't willing to sacrifice the traditional

GM built 10,000 ACRS (Air Cushion Restraint System) Air-bag equipped cars from 1973-1976. Most were in the Cadillac and Oldsmobile models some migrated to the Buick line.

More weren't ordered, because they weren't offered as a line item to order. They were a test fleet to see how ACRS operated in the real world. GM said they should have sold the air-bags and given away the cars as they lost approximately $10,000 on each vehicle equipped.

Soon after their release air-bag collision stories began to appear. In most cases they were all positive. Though fought by the auto industry, where most opted for the less expensive passive seat belts that could easily be overridden, and were not as effective; Chrysler Chairman Lee A. Iacocca decided to begin equipping certain vehicles in 1989, and their entire fleet in 1990 with driver side air bags. Then the two 1989 Chrysler LeBarons crashed head-on in Culpepper, Virginia In April 1990. National news picked up the story, the cars were purchased by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety IIHS. This crash is one of the most analyzed car crashes in history as it was the first to involve two air bag equipped vehicles.

After that it started to become a war as to who could put their air bags in when. Of course GM held out until 1994 when they were forced to have at least driver side air bags as the automatic belts were not meeting the mandates any longer.

All of this, a fight that Ralph Nader fought for many decades. Today it is not uncommon to see cars with six, eight, 10 air bags. Including side curtain, roll over and knee protection. [this post was last edited: 10/23/2017-13:34]

 

[vacerator]

Some would say

too many government controls, but Ralph Nader was a huge advocate for vehicle safety.
Iv'e watched those old crash test video's. There is no compromise for the modern safety cage of a vehicle which stays in tact in a crash.
Foot well intrusion braking feet and legs, A pillar deformation causing concussions and skull fractures, old non collapsing steering columns and wheels, etc. The deadly T-Bone side collision where the head hits the B or C pillar, all improved with side and curtain air bags.
I'd never drive an antique classic as a daily driver anyway.

 

[philr]

Harley,
The 1973 Chevrolet Impala 4 door sedans that were equipped with the Air Cushion Restraint System (and a 1973 Oldsmobile dashboard to accommodate them) were part of the test fleet that was eventually sold to the public through Chevy dealerships in 1975 after they were retrofitted with lap belts like regular production cars that GM sold with this option (see the 5 first pictures I uploaded in this post for more details).

The Buick, Olds and Cadillac cars that had airbags were regular production cars that came with standard lap belts from the beginning. The option became available a few months after the beginning of the 1974 production in November-December of 1974. The NHTSA still collected data on these cars if they were involved in an accident but they were still regular production cars. Here's a link that shows the sticker in my car's glovebox. When I got it in November of 2001, the phone number had been reused for the National Terrorist Hotline. I tried to call as I had a concern about the warning light coming on sometimes and my GM dealer was clueless about what to do with that light or how to service that system! I managed to fix it by myself and to buy some spare parts and test equipment...

I've seen what seems to be an even distribution of cars equipped with airbags in the full size Buick, Oldsmobile and Cadillac lines for the 3 years it was available but much less 1976 models of each brand with this option, it was a low volume option as less than 1% of cars had it but dealers or customers could order it under the option code AR4.

The highest volume model with airbags was the 1973 Chevrolet Impala 4 door sedans that were the experimental cars.

Buick had to redesign it's the passenger part of it's otherwise carried over 1973 dashboard for 1974 models and move the glove box to the upper part of the instrument panel to accommodate the passenger airbags (pictures 6-7), the 1975 models followed with a completely redesigned dashboard (pics 8-9-10) that also had it's glove box up.

Olds had a completely redesigned instrument panel for 1974 (11-12) but I guess it wasn't for that purpose as there were many test vehicles including early 1970s Olds and the 1973 Chevy fleet that had a a 1973 Olds dashboard that had airbags. Cadillac also had a brand new dashboard for 1974 but they didn't bother moving the glove box up so cars equipped with airbags had to be fitted with a small lockable compartment under the dashboard to fit the power trunk button and to store small items (pictures 13-14).

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Definitely where necessity was the mother of invention! That OLDS dash in a Chevy?! I wouldn't have thought of such a drastic measure, even for safety...--Just made something more "Chevrolet", rather than borrow...

As for the Cadillac, I can see an influence on Chrysler putting their glove box under the dash the way Cadillac did, only making me wonder of the "planned likelihood" of ever utilizing airbags, there; those big-bodied Chrysler models from 1974-1978 had a busy dash w/ everything center-mounted, there...

-- Dave

 

[iheartmaytag]

The 1,000 1973 Chevrolets were part of the test fleet on Government lease. They were retrofitted with lap/shoulder belts once they came off lease in order to qualify for sale to the public. GM has a history of using lease vehicles as their test fleets, as they remain the true owner of the vehicle and thus have control of it's disposal. Remember the first electric vehicles tested in California, when GM pulled them out of lease they were all ordered destroyed.

The 10,000 public test fleet (real world testing) were Cadiallacs and Oldsmobiles, however, Ford beat GM to the market by building an experimental test fleet in 1971. I found very little on their data, but I assumed they were their large cars the LTD, Marquis, and Lincolns.

The History of Airbags:

"In 1971, the Ford car company built an experimental airbag fleet. General Motors tested airbags on the 1973 model Chevrolet automobile that was only sold for government use. 1973, Oldsmobile Toronado was the first car with a passenger airbag intended for sale to the public.

General Motors later offered an option to the general public of driver side airbags in full-sized Oldsmobile's and Buick's in 1975 and 1976 respectively. Cadillacs were available with driver and passenger airbags options during those same years."

 

[philr]

The first Buick with airbags was a 1974 Electra built in December of 1973, just two weeks after the first Oldsmobile was made with this option.

I have parted out one 1974 Electra to keep the airbags, the computer/recorder and the sensors, the 1974 Buick has a different passenger side module as the shape of the dashboards changed but the rest of the parts are the same as on my 1975 Electra.

I don't know where you got the information you quoted that Cadillac and Olds were part of a public test fleet and that Buick and Olds had driver side airbag only and that it was available much later on Buick models but I can tell you it's not the case! The ACRS option was available starting in late 1973 on 1974 Buick LeSabre, Electra 225 and Riviera models as well as on the Olds 88, 98 and Toronado and most Cadillac models. Convertibles and wagons as well as long wheelbase models were not available with ACRS and cars had to be ordered with air conditioning to have airbags too. ALL cars with ACRS had a driver AND a passenger side airbag. My car has that too and so did the 1974 Electra that I parted out.

Cars with a standard tilt steering or tilt-telescopic steering had a credit for these features that had to be deleted with the ACRS (the 1974-76 Buick Riviera had standard tilt steering and the 1975 Buick Park Avenue Deluxe had standard tilt-telescope) it was cheaper to order airbags on these cars than on other models that offered these features as extra-cost.

Ford did experiments with airbags in the early seventies and some Allstate ads showed these experimental Ford cars and GM did too, even earlier than that.
The picture below shows a 1969 Pontiac Bonneville coupe equipped with a passenger side airbag, note that it's located on the upper part of the instrument panel unlike the 1973-76 models that were equipped with the ACRS.

 

[philr]

Here are the Allstate ads showing some Ford and GM cars. The third picture shows a 1974 Buick Electra production car.

And the spare parts I got from another 1974 Electra including the passenger side module that's a bit different from the 1975-76 module because of the 1975 Buick dashboard redesign in the pictures 5 to 10.

 

[iheartmaytag]

I don't know where you got the information you quoted

"In 1973, GM’s Oldsmobile Toronado became the first car ever with a passenger airbag. Later on, GM made its own air cushion restraint system (ACRS) available as an option for regular production cars such as Cadillacs, Oldsmobile and Buick models during 1974. They made cars equipped with ACRS on the driver side, driver-side knee restraint, and the passenger side. The passenger side airbag protects front passengers, and also included a dual stage deployment, which depended on the force of impact."

https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-airbags-1991232
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/airbags/airbags_invented.html
http://secondchancegarage.com/public/history-of-airbags.cfm
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Air_bag

Then there are all the magazines, and articles I have read since I was about 12. One in Particular Popular Science, I believe it was March 1977 which mentioned the the fleet.
There are more references, but I can't quite produce the bibliography at this time. [this post was last edited: 10/24/2017-14:30]

http://https//didyouknowcars.com/history-of-airbags/

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Re: Post# 955100, Reply# 79--

I thought the downsizing GM gave those full-sized cars was at-least passable in '77--and imagine my surprise, that these weren't the EIGHTIES (as I used to think the '75's w/ the introduction of rectangular headlamps would have been from that era)...!

Ford seemed to have done the same thing a couple years later (1979) as did Chrysler (although late to the PILLARED-Hardtop Party) just for Chrysler to really lag & sag in sales...

I don't anything by Ford has really impressed me since the late-'60's--the '70's stuff other than an occasional Mark IV has never been anything I would have bought "back then" right down to having a whole coral of stuff made by Chrysler and GM... (TWO-BARREL CARBS on all their V-8's, except for FOUR- on the Thirsty Three-Sixty!)

General Motors could not have possibly been expected to keep their stuff in low-slung hardtops past '76 (& even there was too long-overdue for a change) but I can't warm up to the death of the Colonnade meaning I'm put-off by the 'shrinking mid-sized '78's'... The compacts like the Nova and its ilk lasted until 1980, then came the prop-rod hood front-wheel-drive of the Citation and its stablemates, and automakers of 'everything no-longer RWD' on the rampage... --The transmission (on FWD Chrysler products) even got termed Transaxle... (Remember?)

-- Dave

 

[cadman]

And don't forget one of the big incentives of ordering the GM ACRS package....no government mandated starter interlock system.

Phil's comments are correct, there was never a test fleet with Buicks or Cads, only the original Chevrolets. Next time you catch a Seinfeld rerun with Kramer's car, look closely. It's one of the test vehicles(!)

 

[johnrk]

wrist twist steering

I was in sixth grade when Ford/Mercury came out with Wrist-Twist Steering. I can remember it being all the car mags. There was actually serious talk of it being an option in either '67 or '68! The column didn't turn at all, only the small wheels. Can you imagine a wreck, and your thumbs happened to be in those little rings? There's a 2-min YouTube video on it.

 

[philr]

Harley,

There is a lot of misinformation about the early air bag cars, a few years ago, Mercedes Benz even made a press release in which where they bragged about being the first automaker to offer air bags back in 1980 and their lie was also widely repeated in many publications.

I've been fascinated by these since I was a kid and I read a lot of things about them and collected pictures and documentation about GM's early Air Cushion Restraint System. I wanted to buy a 1975 Buick Electra Park Avenue that had this option when I was 14 but I was never able to as the owner had promised to sell me the car when he'd be ready to replace it but then he told me that the car was damaged while parked at a shopping mall by someone who had an heart attack and the owner sent it to the junkyard assuming I wouldn't want it in that condition.

I searched for years before I had internet access for full size GM cars in Auto Trader and other publications and I called every time I couldn't see shoulder belts on the small black and white pictures in those publications. That's how I got my current 1975 Electra many years ago and I still have it. Some of the articles you cited used a picture of my 1975 Electra, a picture I uploaded on Wikipedia years ago back when you couldn't find much information about the ACRS.

The articles in the links you cited show quite a few errors. First, the fleet of 1973 Chevrolets with ACRS did have both driver side and passenger side air bags. The passenger airbag was for both the center and right passenger and also included an inflatable knee restraint. On the driver side, the air bag was mounted in the steering wheel and the lower part of the dashboard was padded instead of being made of metal or hard plastic. Those cars originally lacked front seat belts but they were added in 1975 when the cars were sold to the public.

About the exact date when the first cars with airbags, as a factory equipment available for the public, here'a quote from this book:
The Buick: a complete history - Page 301
Terry B. Dunham, ‎Lawrence R. Gustin - 1980

"... On December 6th, 1973, a blue Electra Limited rolled off the line at Factory 4 in Flint with the first Buick air bag. An Olds Toronado had been produced with the device the previous week. Air bags were expensive and controversial. ... years, little promotion and few sales, they were dropped, though in the early 1980's there would be renewed pressure for the feature."

I assume most of this information is correct but note that it states "the first Buick air bag" rather than "air bags" which can create some confusion about having just a driver-side air bag or both driver and passenger airbags. I can confirm you that it was air bags for both the driver and front passengers, even in early production and in the previous experimental models...

GM dealerships had to train their employees to service cars with air bags, a friend of mine used to work in a body shop back in the 1970s and he remembers having the training and a few weird procedures explained. One of them that I also saw in a few service booklets was to burn the passenger side module in a 45 gallon drum if it was deployed as it could still contain another charge if it deployed in a low speed impact! They also suggested to disconnect battery cables and tape their ends when working on these cars to avoid accidental deployment!

I have to say I didn't tape the battery cables when I removed the driver module in my car to fix a sticking horn contact that blew the 4 note horn at night when the car was parked. I first thought it was a train horn, then I noticed it was too loud and too long, by the time I got out of bed and got the tools to disconnect the battery, two of the horns were already burned and there was just one still making noise when I finally removed the battery cable. Luckily, I had some spares as the two optional ones can be hard to get. Here are a few pictures I took when I removed the driver module to fix the contacts.

 

[vacerator]

twist wrist?

Gimmicks at the auto shows attracted buyers to the show rooms. I'd rather steer a car with a tiller handle.

Driving frustrates me these days anyway. The other day an older man kept along side of me and kept leering over at me. I passed him, and he passed me. When I got to the round about, there he was again.
Then almost every younger driver I saw that morning was looking down at their phones while moving along, pokingly.

 

[askolover]

I see that here all the time on I65 going into Nashville.  Some states are issuing E-DUI's.....driving under the influence of electronic devices!  Traffic in Nashville has gotten so much worse in the last 5 years due to growing so much so fast.  And now with the days being shorter it's 10x worse since people here can't drive in the dark...or rain...or snow...or sunshine!

New 'E-DUI' law allows police to pull you over for holding electronic device in Washington state

<p>A new law went into effect Sunday in Washington state that prohibits drivers from holding electronic devices – including phones, tablets and other electronic gadgets – while behind the wheel.</p>

www.wsoctv.com

 

[lordkenmore]

Some states are issuing E-DUI's

WA has such a law, although I haven't heard it called "E-DUI." It seems like the label is something like "distracted driving." If police see someone holding a cell phone, they can pull that someone over and issue a ticket. However, one can still use a phone if it's on a dashboard mount. I suppose there are some who'd argue this is necessary, since the phone may be needed for displaying a map, but I can unfortunately imagine a scenario where someone has the phone on a dashboard mount, and uses it to watch YouTube videos while driving...

 

[petek]

Ontario has distracted driving laws now as well.. Something like $400 and 3 points/demerits on your license..  

It encompasses all electronic devices whether it's a phone, gps or whatever.. if it's in your hand , even if it's not turned on, doesn't matter.. No handheld devices unless the vehicle is parked or it's an emergency.  Even so you still see idiots driving around with a phone to their ear.. or obviosly looking down and texting.  I wish they would increase the fine. $400 isn't enough.. it should be more like $2000 plus points. 

 

[foraloysius]

Overhere in te NL they are talking now about making it possible to send someone to jail for using a phone when driving. I can't say I'm against it!

 

[wayupnorth]

Against the law in this state to use a handheld device for anything while driving. But do they still do it, yes. Wished they would get caught and severely punished. Too many innocent people are hurt by their negligence. Put the stupid phone down and concentrate on your driving, not social media for that short while.

 

[iheartmaytag]

Had a friend several weeks ago was hit in an intersection. Young girl was texting, and ran the red light. My friend is OK, just bruised. Totalled her new Accord with 8,000 miles on it.