OLD Electric Warming Oven

[robinsondm]

Hi folks,

My pantry contains an old electric warming oven. It has no markings that I can see. However, the house generally had all GE appliances, so it might be a GE. Based on what I know about the history of the house, I'd guess the oven dates from the late '30s or early '40s.

It's 24 inches wide, and fits in a "standard" undercounter opening, except that it appears to rest above the baseboard molding, rather than on the floor. The oven may have identifying markings on the back, but it's built-in, and I'd prefer not to remove it unless absolutely necessary.

I'll attach some pictures in the next few posts. Does anyone recognize this oven? Thanks,

Dean

First picture:[this post was last edited: 1/4/2014-09:19]

 

[robinsondm]

Next picture, oven turned on:

 

[robinsondm]

Next picture, oven doors open. The center shelf slides out.

 

[robinsondm]

Last picture, close-up of control knob, indicator light, and door handles:

 

[polkanut]

Do you use it?  Performance?  A very nice thing to have for large gatherings.

 

[robinsondm]

The oven seems to work fine. It heats up rather slowly, but that's probably normal. We have used it, but to be honest we don't use it often. Maybe this group will inspire me to use it more!

 

[rockland1]

Consider yourself fortunate....

Most warming drawers today sell at or above $1000. They're probably not worth that much, but that's where the pricing is.

 

[wiskybill]

Very nice..

Dean,

I'm curious.

Have you ever checked it with a thermometer to see
what temps correspond to low, med, and high?

I could see this as a very useful addition to any
kitchen, if you have the space.

Bill

 

[robinsondm]

Bill,

I have not measured the oven's temperature at the various settings (L, M, H). I will put that on my list of things to do.

Out of curiosity, I looked to see if there are modern warming ovens that would fit in a 24" undercounter space. I didn't find any -- just lots of warming drawers.

Dean

 

[58limited]

That is really cool! Now I have something else to find for my kitchen

 

[iheartmaytag]

Love it

You are so fortunate to have it. My new GE range has a warming oven where the storage is normally. I wasn't sure I would use it when I bought it, but I wanted it. You don't realize how much you use it.

fixing pancakes on weekends, you can keep the batch warm while you put the next bunch on the griddle. When you are having big dinners you can keep the bread warm while you are finishing the rest of the meal. Works great as a plate warmer too.

For something that I wanted that I didn't think I would use much, I am surprised that I have it on several times a week.

 

[MrX]

That looks more like a 1950s appliance.
Although it does have a bit of an Art Deco style.

I would be a bit concerned about the wiring of an old heating appliance of that era.

There is a very significant likelihood of disintegrated insulation and a possible fire risk.

Cool to see something that old in such good condition though.

I'm guessing that it must have seen very little use.

 

[neptunebob]

When I worked at an Arby's a few years ago we had a warming oven like this. They call it the Alto-Shaam. You place 3-4 roasts in it after they bake in the oven in back and you keep them in the Shaam so that you have enough of them to slice for the lunch and evening rush. It is supposed to be 140 degrees, see if that one is that hot. In fact, the interior of that warmer looks like the inside of the Alto-Shaam. We also had warming drawers like they did at Denny's. In an Arby's they are used for potatoes.

 

[cornutt]

Yeah, if this works it's a useful and valuable addition to your kitchen. We use our warming drawer more than I thought we would when we built the house. It's handy to be able to stop on the way home from work, grab some take-out, come home, and pop it in the warming drawer until dinner time.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Very nice warmer

That must be some mansion to have that appliance installed in butler's pantry during the Depression. I wonder if your Schenectady location could mean that it was the home of some GE executive.

 

[robinsondm]

Tom,

It's not really a mansion, but it is a nice big old house. And the house was originally built for a GE executive! I live in a neighborhood called the GE Realty Plot:

http://www.realtyplot.org/

My house is not nearly as fancy as some in this neighborhood. Nowadays, the neighborhood is mostly non-GE people. And (sadly for me) the houses are worth much less than you'd think, because 1) most affluent families choose to live in the suburbs, and 2) the taxes in Schenectady are quite high. Points 1 and 2 are unfortunately related and self-reinforcing, but that's off-topic for this thread.

Dean

 

[robinsondm]

Oven temperatures -- approximate

Okay, I measured the temperature in the warming oven with an oven thermometer, and got the following:

Low: ~170F
Med: ~220F
High: ~270F

It takes a long time for the oven to warm up and stabilize, so these measurements took a while. For more accurate measurements, I could use a remote-reading thermometer, but I don’t have one.

Dean

 

[tomturbomatic]

Wow! Thanks. Beautiful location. It seems when cities have treasures like your neighborhood, there should be a tax break to keep keep up the value and desirability of the location. Thank you for sharing your treasure.

 

[robinsondm]

Clues to age of oven

Hi Folks,

I temporarily removed the guard in the rear of my warming oven to reveal the heating elements. A picture appears below. To me, the cloth wire insulation, etc., looks consistent with a guess of late 30s or early 40s, but I'd be curious to hear others' opinions. As you see, there's some light rust on the elements. I don't know if I should try to remove the rust (after cutting power to the oven) or leave it alone.

Two other tidbits: 1) I've seen the oven's main power cord (it plugs in behind an undercounter refrigerator) and the power cord is cloth insulated. 2) The heating elements say "TRENT, H.E. Trent Co., Phila. PA., 115V, 300W". There is a Trent Inc. in Philadelphia, that makes heating units for industrial applications.

Any more thoughts or guesses on the oven would be appreciated. As I said, I'd rather not remove it to examine the back for additional markings. Thanks,

Dean[this post was last edited: 1/5/2014-18:15]

 

[robinsondm]

Close-up of the wire connections, insulation, and heating element markings:

 

[MrX]

It's surprising that the cloth insulation's held up so well over that time.

That would definitely tend to point towards the 1920s/30s and would fit with the art deco design I guess.

Interesting insect life going on there on the electrical terminals!

The company that made the elements, HE Trent, is still going : http://www.trentheat.com

I would still consider that machine a potentially serious fire hazard though as the wiring's just so old and I definitely wouldn't advise using it.

 

[robinsondm]

@MrX: Ick, you're right about the insects. I had thought that was frayed insulation, but not so. I deleted the close-up photo. I'll replace it with a new version after I clean off the bugs!

 

[gansky1]

That it's in a pantry, the shelf looking more like a cabinet than an oven and the slow heating would lead me to think it may be a dish warmer rather than soley for food.

Either way, it's a very cool appliance!

 

[robinsondm]

Ok, new close-up (sans bugs) of wiring and heating element markings:

 

[robinsondm]

@gansky1: Yes, it could be intended as a plate warmer. In the past, that's how we've used it, rather than using it as a keep-warm oven for food (though I think it would work for that purpose also).

@MrX: If the cloth insulation is really a serious risk, then I have bigger problems than the warming oven. Namely, much of my house wiring still has cloth insulation! When I've worked with it (e.g., to install new outlets) the insulation has always seemed to be in good condition. The cloth was impregnated with a wax, I think, that keeps it soft and pliable. We did talk to an electrician once about re-wiring the house to get rid of the old wiring, and it was too much for him! That same electrician did remark on what good condition the old wiring seemed to be in.

Anyway, I'm sure I could rewire the warming oven. Would you recommend that? Rewiring the house would be a much, much bigger deal. Fortunately, we do have centrally-monitored, hard-wired smoke alarms in the house.

Dean

 

[MrX]

To be honest, yes I would recommend a compete rewire of the house.

That wiring is extremely old. In the interim, I would be very careful not to overload circuits or add new outlets. The design of old installations often didn't really foresee big load requirements. I would be careful with high load heaters and air conditioners etc etc and don't uprate any fuses whatever you do!

Rubber sheathed wiring is actually worse even though its younger than that cloth stuff because it pershies over time.

With cloth covered wiring there were various approaches to insulating it ranging from wax to tar to rubber.

However, at this stage that wiring couldn't possibly pass an inspection. I would suggest that you start to budget towards a complete rewire as soon as you can afford it.

Rodent and insect damage is also a possibility and old junctions can be a little scary sometimes too, particularly where they're been DIY hacked over the decades.

Rewiring the oven would require heat resistant wires suitable for connection to elements. You'd need to get proper local advice on the type to use.. There are special sheaths used in hot locations like that., I'm in Ireland so wiring spec and terminology is a bit different.

Also bear in mind that the oven / warming cabinet could possibly be a 'Class 0' appliance meaning that it's neither grounded nor double insulated and has exposed metal surfaces.

Class 0 appliances are generally illegal since the 50s in most EU countries and I would suspect the same in North America.
However, they weren't that unusual in the old days!

Antique electrical installations can be very dangerous!

Just be careful with it!

On the plus side, at least US construction usually has partition walls (sheet rock panels etc) and plenty of voids for running wires and ducts.

Over here most construction has solid walls and wiring is burried in ducts in the plaster.

So rewiring over there is relatively straight forward.

We rewired my grandmother's place a fee years ago.. Its a classic 1923 house and it had similar cloth wiring!
It was disguised because someone had installed a more modern (late 1950s)panel and modern outlets and switches!

The electrician opened an outlet and was horrified to find black cotton covered wires!

 

[wiskybill]

Ronan

IMO, your reaction to this seems to be a little overdramatic.

I see no evidence to support your position that this appliance is
completely unsafe, and in fact his house should be considered that too.

I see no reason to induce such panic and fear based on what has been presented
to this point.

The picture shows wiring that appears to be completely intact and undisturbed
since its installation.

Yes, caution should always be exercised with vintage appliances and a thorough
examination performed and issues addressed if they are found.

Dean, IMO, I would leave the rust alone and re-install the cover.
Unless there is something else you haven't shown us or disclosed to
support Ronan, don't lose sleep over this.

 

[58limited]

I agree. If the wiring insulation is in good shape and not brittle, it is best to leave well enough alone both in the house and in the appliance. Rewiring a house in the U.S. can cost well over $5000, my house would cost about $8000 - $10,000.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Unless serious faults are found, houses generally are not totally rewired. They might be "heavied up" to increase the electrical capacity and new circuits might be run to add air conditioning, for example, but that does not change the load on existing circuits, nor does it disturb wires or their insulation that have been in good shape over the decades. Even when fuse boxes are replaced with circuit breaker panels, the existing wiring in the home is allowed to remain in the heavy up situations I have seen and lived through.

 

[MrX]

If the wiring's from the 1920s you're talking about a system that's coming up on 100 years old!
That is *NOT* safe. Ask any electrician.