robinsondm
New member
Close-up of the wire connections, insulation, and heating element markings:
OLD Electric Warming Oven
- Thread starter robinsondm
- Start date
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It's surprising that the cloth insulation's held up so well over that time.
That would definitely tend to point towards the 1920s/30s and would fit with the art deco design I guess.
Interesting insect life going on there on the electrical terminals!
The company that made the elements, HE Trent, is still going : http://www.trentheat.com
I would still consider that machine a potentially serious fire hazard though as the wiring's just so old and I definitely wouldn't advise using it.
That would definitely tend to point towards the 1920s/30s and would fit with the art deco design I guess.
Interesting insect life going on there on the electrical terminals!
The company that made the elements, HE Trent, is still going : http://www.trentheat.com
I would still consider that machine a potentially serious fire hazard though as the wiring's just so old and I definitely wouldn't advise using it.
robinsondm
New member
That it's in a pantry, the shelf looking more like a cabinet than an oven and the slow heating would lead me to think it may be a dish warmer rather than soley for food.
Either way, it's a very cool appliance!
Either way, it's a very cool appliance!
robinsondm
New member
Ok, new close-up (sans bugs) of wiring and heating element markings:
robinsondm
New member
@gansky1: Yes, it could be intended as a plate warmer. In the past, that's how we've used it, rather than using it as a keep-warm oven for food (though I think it would work for that purpose also).
@MrX: If the cloth insulation is really a serious risk, then I have bigger problems than the warming oven. Namely, much of my house wiring still has cloth insulation! When I've worked with it (e.g., to install new outlets) the insulation has always seemed to be in good condition. The cloth was impregnated with a wax, I think, that keeps it soft and pliable. We did talk to an electrician once about re-wiring the house to get rid of the old wiring, and it was too much for him! That same electrician did remark on what good condition the old wiring seemed to be in.
Anyway, I'm sure I could rewire the warming oven. Would you recommend that? Rewiring the house would be a much, much bigger deal. Fortunately, we do have centrally-monitored, hard-wired smoke alarms in the house.
Dean
@MrX: If the cloth insulation is really a serious risk, then I have bigger problems than the warming oven. Namely, much of my house wiring still has cloth insulation! When I've worked with it (e.g., to install new outlets) the insulation has always seemed to be in good condition. The cloth was impregnated with a wax, I think, that keeps it soft and pliable. We did talk to an electrician once about re-wiring the house to get rid of the old wiring, and it was too much for him! That same electrician did remark on what good condition the old wiring seemed to be in.
Anyway, I'm sure I could rewire the warming oven. Would you recommend that? Rewiring the house would be a much, much bigger deal. Fortunately, we do have centrally-monitored, hard-wired smoke alarms in the house.
Dean
To be honest, yes I would recommend a compete rewire of the house.
That wiring is extremely old. In the interim, I would be very careful not to overload circuits or add new outlets. The design of old installations often didn't really foresee big load requirements. I would be careful with high load heaters and air conditioners etc etc and don't uprate any fuses whatever you do!
Rubber sheathed wiring is actually worse even though its younger than that cloth stuff because it pershies over time.
With cloth covered wiring there were various approaches to insulating it ranging from wax to tar to rubber.
However, at this stage that wiring couldn't possibly pass an inspection. I would suggest that you start to budget towards a complete rewire as soon as you can afford it.
Rodent and insect damage is also a possibility and old junctions can be a little scary sometimes too, particularly where they're been DIY hacked over the decades.
Rewiring the oven would require heat resistant wires suitable for connection to elements. You'd need to get proper local advice on the type to use.. There are special sheaths used in hot locations like that., I'm in Ireland so wiring spec and terminology is a bit different.
Also bear in mind that the oven / warming cabinet could possibly be a 'Class 0' appliance meaning that it's neither grounded nor double insulated and has exposed metal surfaces.
Class 0 appliances are generally illegal since the 50s in most EU countries and I would suspect the same in North America.
However, they weren't that unusual in the old days!
Antique electrical installations can be very dangerous!
Just be careful with it!
On the plus side, at least US construction usually has partition walls (sheet rock panels etc) and plenty of voids for running wires and ducts.
Over here most construction has solid walls and wiring is burried in ducts in the plaster.
So rewiring over there is relatively straight forward.
We rewired my grandmother's place a fee years ago.. Its a classic 1923 house and it had similar cloth wiring!
It was disguised because someone had installed a more modern (late 1950s)panel and modern outlets and switches!
The electrician opened an outlet and was horrified to find black cotton covered wires!
That wiring is extremely old. In the interim, I would be very careful not to overload circuits or add new outlets. The design of old installations often didn't really foresee big load requirements. I would be careful with high load heaters and air conditioners etc etc and don't uprate any fuses whatever you do!
Rubber sheathed wiring is actually worse even though its younger than that cloth stuff because it pershies over time.
With cloth covered wiring there were various approaches to insulating it ranging from wax to tar to rubber.
However, at this stage that wiring couldn't possibly pass an inspection. I would suggest that you start to budget towards a complete rewire as soon as you can afford it.
Rodent and insect damage is also a possibility and old junctions can be a little scary sometimes too, particularly where they're been DIY hacked over the decades.
Rewiring the oven would require heat resistant wires suitable for connection to elements. You'd need to get proper local advice on the type to use.. There are special sheaths used in hot locations like that., I'm in Ireland so wiring spec and terminology is a bit different.
Also bear in mind that the oven / warming cabinet could possibly be a 'Class 0' appliance meaning that it's neither grounded nor double insulated and has exposed metal surfaces.
Class 0 appliances are generally illegal since the 50s in most EU countries and I would suspect the same in North America.
However, they weren't that unusual in the old days!
Antique electrical installations can be very dangerous!
Just be careful with it!
On the plus side, at least US construction usually has partition walls (sheet rock panels etc) and plenty of voids for running wires and ducts.
Over here most construction has solid walls and wiring is burried in ducts in the plaster.
So rewiring over there is relatively straight forward.
We rewired my grandmother's place a fee years ago.. Its a classic 1923 house and it had similar cloth wiring!
It was disguised because someone had installed a more modern (late 1950s)panel and modern outlets and switches!
The electrician opened an outlet and was horrified to find black cotton covered wires!
Ronan
IMO, your reaction to this seems to be a little overdramatic.
I see no evidence to support your position that this appliance is
completely unsafe, and in fact his house should be considered that too.
I see no reason to induce such panic and fear based on what has been presented
to this point.
The picture shows wiring that appears to be completely intact and undisturbed
since its installation.
Yes, caution should always be exercised with vintage appliances and a thorough
examination performed and issues addressed if they are found.
Dean, IMO, I would leave the rust alone and re-install the cover.
Unless there is something else you haven't shown us or disclosed to
support Ronan, don't lose sleep over this.
IMO, your reaction to this seems to be a little overdramatic.
I see no evidence to support your position that this appliance is
completely unsafe, and in fact his house should be considered that too.
I see no reason to induce such panic and fear based on what has been presented
to this point.
The picture shows wiring that appears to be completely intact and undisturbed
since its installation.
Yes, caution should always be exercised with vintage appliances and a thorough
examination performed and issues addressed if they are found.
Dean, IMO, I would leave the rust alone and re-install the cover.
Unless there is something else you haven't shown us or disclosed to
support Ronan, don't lose sleep over this.
58limited
Well-known member
I agree. If the wiring insulation is in good shape and not brittle, it is best to leave well enough alone both in the house and in the appliance. Rewiring a house in the U.S. can cost well over $5000, my house would cost about $8000 - $10,000.
Unless serious faults are found, houses generally are not totally rewired. They might be "heavied up" to increase the electrical capacity and new circuits might be run to add air conditioning, for example, but that does not change the load on existing circuits, nor does it disturb wires or their insulation that have been in good shape over the decades. Even when fuse boxes are replaced with circuit breaker panels, the existing wiring in the home is allowed to remain in the heavy up situations I have seen and lived through.
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
When I bought my house, it had to be "emergency" rewired the night before closing due to the inspector finding Knob and Tube wiring and the insurance company refused to issue a certificate.
Sellers and I split the cost my half was approximately $2500, Luckily we did not have to change the service as we already had 100 amps coming in. If it had been less the insurance company would have required an upgrade to the service as well. $$$
Sellers and I split the cost my half was approximately $2500, Luckily we did not have to change the service as we already had 100 amps coming in. If it had been less the insurance company would have required an upgrade to the service as well. $$$
That is *NOT* safe. Ask any electrician.
Especially one that is trying to sell you new wiring!
I'd surely not worry about the wiring in the appliance itself. Its in a metal box and provided its protected by a fuse or circuit breaker you are fine. It would either short and trip the protection or go open meaning no heat, no other reasonable failure is possible.
I won't comment on the home wiring as none of that has been detailed here. If the OP is concerned it would be wise to have a professional electrician look at it in person. Armchair quarterbacking on a forum by folks that have never seen said wiring isn't likely to be helpful...
Especially one that is trying to sell you new wiring!
I'd surely not worry about the wiring in the appliance itself. Its in a metal box and provided its protected by a fuse or circuit breaker you are fine. It would either short and trip the protection or go open meaning no heat, no other reasonable failure is possible.
I won't comment on the home wiring as none of that has been detailed here. If the OP is concerned it would be wise to have a professional electrician look at it in person. Armchair quarterbacking on a forum by folks that have never seen said wiring isn't likely to be helpful...
retromania
Well-known member
I love it!!
That's my thinking too, that it is a dish warmer since it is located in the pantry, but could be used too keep foods warm. Would really come in handy at the holidays. Never seen one this old. Very neat. Thanks for sharing.
That's my thinking too, that it is a dish warmer since it is located in the pantry, but could be used too keep foods warm. Would really come in handy at the holidays. Never seen one this old. Very neat. Thanks for sharing.
robinsondm
New member
mrx
Well that (mrx's departure) is unfortunate. I sent him a PM to say I thought this was just a disagreement over the need to re-wire, and that no one had intended for him to feel personally insulted or leave the forum. I also encouraged him to consider rejoining.
But, I don't know if mrx will see my PM. So, if any of you know how to reach mrx, maybe you could reach out and encourage him to consider rejoining the forum? Thanks,
Dean
Well that (mrx's departure) is unfortunate. I sent him a PM to say I thought this was just a disagreement over the need to re-wire, and that no one had intended for him to feel personally insulted or leave the forum. I also encouraged him to consider rejoining.
But, I don't know if mrx will see my PM. So, if any of you know how to reach mrx, maybe you could reach out and encourage him to consider rejoining the forum? Thanks,
Dean
Very nice warming oven. It's nice to hear that you care for your vintage home.
It really bothers me that we can get so paranoid over perceived dangers. Ten years ago I did a gut rehab of a building. Walls were moving around and the 1915 wiring was completely replaced. Unfortunately, the new wiring was frequently an issue. Connections would get loose, etc.
I now live in a 1930's home. The wiring has been updated when a room has been renovated. In my case, the kitchen. The bulk of the home is original. The electric load on the wiring is light. When I replace a switch or receptacle, I have used heat shrink tubing to stabilize the insulation. When I have had the chance to see the wiring in the wall, it's fine, it just doesn't like to be flexed. That shouldn't be a problem, since I am not reaching inside my walls to flex the wiring.
I watch a lot of HGTV home renovation shows. I love them, but what I never do understand is the shock of people finding old wiring or asbestos in their old homes. I mean get real. I guess it makes for good tv. My one piece of asbestos that I found was removed by me and disposed of, crisis averted!
Sorry to have drifted the thread. I just hate the see this vintage=unsafe mindset prevail. I am more afraid of my newer things blowing up on me.
It really bothers me that we can get so paranoid over perceived dangers. Ten years ago I did a gut rehab of a building. Walls were moving around and the 1915 wiring was completely replaced. Unfortunately, the new wiring was frequently an issue. Connections would get loose, etc.
I now live in a 1930's home. The wiring has been updated when a room has been renovated. In my case, the kitchen. The bulk of the home is original. The electric load on the wiring is light. When I replace a switch or receptacle, I have used heat shrink tubing to stabilize the insulation. When I have had the chance to see the wiring in the wall, it's fine, it just doesn't like to be flexed. That shouldn't be a problem, since I am not reaching inside my walls to flex the wiring.
I watch a lot of HGTV home renovation shows. I love them, but what I never do understand is the shock of people finding old wiring or asbestos in their old homes. I mean get real. I guess it makes for good tv. My one piece of asbestos that I found was removed by me and disposed of, crisis averted!
Sorry to have drifted the thread. I just hate the see this vintage=unsafe mindset prevail. I am more afraid of my newer things blowing up on me.
retromania
Well-known member
Cloth Wiring
Parts of the place where I live still has the original cloth wiring. An electrician said it was in good shape and would be safe as long as no one messed with it. Said as long as there is no fraying, splitting or crumbling of the insulation, that it is ok. He did recommend a rewire of the place since the wiring is so old and not to code.
Parts of the place where I live still has the original cloth wiring. An electrician said it was in good shape and would be safe as long as no one messed with it. Said as long as there is no fraying, splitting or crumbling of the insulation, that it is ok. He did recommend a rewire of the place since the wiring is so old and not to code.
Warming Cabinet
Greg hit the nail on the head, this neat appliance is not meant for food at all, but rather it is meant for warming dishes for a meal.
This appliance should be perfectly safe to use, I would not give it a second thought.
Greg hit the nail on the head, this neat appliance is not meant for food at all, but rather it is meant for warming dishes for a meal.
This appliance should be perfectly safe to use, I would not give it a second thought.
The wiring in the warming oven appears to have the same type of asbestos impregnated insulation found in electric stoves. It tends to hold up very well over time.
Ken D.
Ken D.
