OT: Will a loan be enough to turn GM around?

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double edged sword

On the one hand, I have no simpathy for the auto industry especially GM after watching "Who Killed the Electric Car?" They made their bed now they need to lie in it. On the other hand, I feel for the workers and related jobs lost if they go under. The auto industry and UAW should come up with a solution before we all bail them out.

Joe
jamman_98
 
I may be in the minority here...

I think America is simply too car dependent - most of us are forced to buy cars because we have no other way to get around because there is no public transportation and many communities are not designed for walking.

The question that must be asked is: What have the automakers done that is good for humanity? Let's see: They sell us machines that (despite safety features)kill and injure people, pollute the air, make the government pave over the Earth, keep us dependent on foreign oil, cause constant aggravation, cost people lots of money, take up people's time with car care (do you really enjoy spending time at your Chevrolet dealer), isolate people, create eyesores, and really, I don't find driving to be much fun anymore and I am just so fed up!

My opinion is DO NOT bail out the automakers!. In fact the only reason they say we should is because of all the jobs. So are all the autoworkers going to go to the bar and get drunk if they are not working? It sounds like the only reason for the bailout is to keep people busy making a product no one wants!
 
Abaolutely Not.

Detroit's Big Three have been so abusive of this nation, their customers, and their employees for so long, that a bailout alone will accomplish nothing beyond permitting some corporate honchos to maintain their lavish lifestyles past their expiration date. The message that Congress is hearing is that Americans are fed up to the teeth with the way Detroit does business, and I hope Congress listens.

Some of the abuses are of the government itself. Washington has long tried to pass laws mandating greater safety, lower emissions and better fuel economy. For all the chest-thumping in ads and brochures, Detroit has fought every bit of regulation Washington has tried to impose, for decades. PCV valves, as a first step in lowering emissions, were fought tooth and toenail. So were seatbelts, side marker lights, head restraints, and more. Detroit actually succeeded in getting a seatbelt interlock first required on all 1974 models rescinded; you couldn't start a '74 until you'd buckled up. Fuel economy regs passed in the '70s became a mockery once Detroit found the loophole - truck-based vehicles were exempt to a large extent. This began resulting in nicer trucks, then in SUV's.

Detroit's relationship with consumers has been nightmarish for those Americans purchasing the product. Today's cars are largely designed by temporary and outsourced employees, using computer simulations that say a particular system should work. Very often, it doesn't, and if the stated warranty on the car has expired, automakers do nothing. Even in instances where problems surface quickly, automakers often bend over backwards to limit their costs on repairs, at the expense of consumers.

I personally owned a '96 Taurus purchased as a one-year-old "cream puff" with plenty of factory warranty left. Before closing the deal, I called Ford, and asked about outstanding recalls on the car. I was told there were none. Within a year, my car began exhibiting symptoms of a "brown coolant" problem epidemic among Tauruses of this year. It turned out that the problem was due to a design fault that permitted stray electrolysis current to get in the coolant. I called Ford, to be told that there had been a "customer satisfaction" campaign about the issue, but that it was over, that I would get absolutely nothing from Ford. Calling the Feds elicited the shocking information that Ford's terming this a customer satisfaction issue to avoid a recall was perfectly legal. I had all the Ford-recommended repairs and modifications done to the car at my own expense, to no avail: the mods didn't work, and the car went to the junkyard at 66,000 immaculately maintained miles, due to failure of its water pump, freeze plugs, heater core, and radiator. Cost to repair was in the thousands. And this was my second Ford product failure in a row - my previous car, a Sable wagon, had blown its engine due to a head gasket failure traceable to design flaws. Again, it was an epidemic problem that owners were expected to bear the cost of.

I wasn't alone. Dodge Intrepid owners who had the 2.7l engine commonly experienced engine sludging and failure at just over 60,000 miles. Attempts to get Chrysler to do anything about it were met with the claim that owners had not maintained their vehicles properly. Claims were denied even when owners displayed absolute proof of maintenance, even when every speck of maintenance had been done at a Chrysler dealer. Chrysler products are also notorious for steering rack failure, often at mileages in the low 20 thousands.

But, as the Ginsu knife people say, that's not all. Employees are abused, too, particularly at the dealership level. Mechanics who work on your car under warranty are paid on what is called a "flat rate" basis, meaning that the manufacturer has determined that each type of repair should take "X" amount of time, and therefore that's all they will pay, regardless of circumstances. Manufacturers themselves set the times, and complaints by service techs are long and loud, saying that times are impossible, completely unachievable and unrealistic. Too bad - they're paid only what the flat rate schedule says they'll be paid. Turnover at dealerships is high nowadays, a dramatic departure from the days when a job as a dealership tech was one of the most desirable blue-collar jobs around.

Assembly-line workers have a negative public image as highly-paid, low-performing union obstructionists. The fact is, automakers close plants, lay off workers, schedule plant down time, and create many other factors that lowers the effective rate of pay for UAW workers.

Manufacturers engage in practices like selling new dealership franchises too close to existing ones. They have, in the past, engaged in shipping unordered cars to dealers, telling them in effect, "This is what we're going to sell you."

If there is to be any bailout, Detroit is going to have to be cleaned up from the bottom up, with sweeping changes to the way it does business and handles relationships with its dealer body, its customers, and Uncle Sam himself. I personally think the entitlement mentality among Detroit execs is so firmly entrenched that Congress would do very well to let one of the Big Three go belly-up before helping the remaining two - it's the only way to get the attention of people who have written the rules as they've seen fit for a century. While letting one manufacturer go under would have unpleasant results for its employees, the other two could then be made to reform in ways that would give them a better chance for survival. If we just throw money at Detroit and let its execs continue on their present path, the industry will burn through the $25 billion requested by Spring, and will still go under in the end.

Anyone who wants to know more about some of the things I've asserted here, try these links:

www.flatratetech.com - A site I occasionally write for, where Ford dealer techs have a forum for what's wrong at their company.

www.intrepidhorrorstories.blogspot.com - The title says it all.
 
What Congress Should Do

I would hate to see any of the Big 3 automakers go under. And frankly, Congress and President-elect Obama would be crazy to give GM, Ford and Chrysler a blank check to spend nilly-willy. Maybe it's time to take a look back at history--specifically, the 1979 bailout of Chrysler.
Congress (and then President Carter) approved a guaranteed loan package for Chrysler, but it came with significant strings. And those strings made all the difference. Chrysler's chairman at the time, John Ricardo, resigned from the company so that Lee Iacocca could take his place--effectively wiping Chrysler's slate clean as far as new blood (or more accurately, former Ford and Iacocca friends) were installed in key positions. The UAW had no choice but to grant concessions as far as pay and benefits; Chrysler was allowed to continue work on key models (the K-Car FWD compacts and the minivan, among others). Iacocca took a dollar a year salary (and bet his stock options would pay off if Chrysler became profitable). And the guaranteed loans came at a time when the American automakers were in bad shape (GM would soon bleed red ink; Ford was in nearly as bad a condition as Chrysler; and AMC was hanging on by just a finger, its Jeeps and the cash infusion from then-French partner Renault.)
Chrysler eventually recovered (and paid back the government loans with interest four years later). Of course, not all of the conditions would apply to today's situation, but America benefited from a more competitive Chrysler (though truth to tell, as danemodsandy correctly pointed out, the company still had quality control issues and durability problems with some engines and transmissions).
Again, I don't want to see any of the Big Three take a dive. But if Congress decides to help the automakers, it needs to set some boundaries. A review of the Chrysler bailout three decades ago would be a very good start.
 
This Bailout Business Is Getting A Bit Thin

Practically the only persons not getting any sort of government aid are the poor fools that get up in the morning, go to work and pay their bills on time.

That being said, the country is going though one of those upheavals out of which a new era is born. Question must be asked does the United States NEED three big automakers, and if bailing one or more out cures their ills, ore merely prolongs a long painful death.

Chapter 11 bankruptcy provides all the protections these companies need to restructure, without any government (ie, tax dollars)funds.

If I were in a position of decision making at any of these automakers, would think very carefully about what I wished for. Do you really want one president, a vice president, the senate and Congress running your business? Witness the hard time all banks that took federal money are getting from those above named persons, not to mention the Federal Reserve, various district attorneys, and the Treasury Department.
 
True...

1) America is too dependent on the automobile...
2) Pubic Transportation is awesome (or living in a city and can walk to whatever you need)

However,

What would Dinah Shore say? How could a companies that brought us classics like the 49 Mercury, 55 T-bird, 55 300, 57 Fury, 57 Chevy, 59 Cadillac, 61 Continental, 63 Riviera, 64 GTO, 65 Mustang, 69 442, 70 Challenger go so wrong?

I miss the days when American stood for quality, but that went out with bell bottoms and disco...

 
When the big 3 pay $79/hr while foreign manufacturers with plants here are paying $46/hr, giving them a loan will only delay the inevitable. It's not like the unions are going to give up anything...
 
Vulcanchef, that is actually what I meant, there was a plot by GM to destroy the electric trolleys most cities had in the 20-30s. Meanwhile, it will cost taxpayers billions to have this rebuilt today. In Pittsburgh, it took nearly 3 billion dollars to rebuilt a trolley (now called light rail) route. That is why I saw America is too dependent on cars - it should be a product that some people might want to buy, not one we are Forced To Buy, which is how the automakers want it. Now the threat is that all these people will be out of work - so is the auto industry just a make-work program to keep people busy so they don't all go out and get drunk?

Collectors are only a small part of auto industry consumers, the rest of us are forced to buy them. So, my opinion is still NO BAILOUT!! LET THEM GO UNDER!!

As for Chrysler, really, the same question is asked then as today - What has the company done for humanity besides build gas-guzzling, unreliable vehicles that make us spend lots of time at a Chrysler dealer - oh, how entertaining!
 
Ask your Buddies for the $

The OIL companies have plenty of $$$ money, maybe they could help Detroit out. Ashton Kutcher mentioned this very idea on Bill Maher last Friday. That way Detroit and Oil, can enable each other. alr2903
 
Why help a company that has gone out of its way to fail???? That's just stupid and it's socialism. Let GM rot, it deserves everything that's coming.
 
GM didn't systematically destroy the trolleys everywhere

In Spokane WA, there were two competing street car lines in 1910. Between them, downtown Spokane had 290 miles of street car track and you were never more than two blocks from a trolley stop. Everything torn out by 1937 due to lack of ridership and interest.

In Los Angeles, the famous (and now legendary) Red Car system started up in the late 1880s as a number of small individual street car lines. Then Henry Huntington got involved in 1895, the system got bigger and bigger and bigger, til by the 1920s you could board in Santa Monica, hit up Pasadena, swing downtown, or go down the coast to Newport Beach. It was simply enormous. But it only paid for itself in one year, 1924. People got fed up with right of ways in the center of major streets. WW2 bought the system more time, but "Progress," car ownership, and no capital improvements to an old infrastructure wiped it out by the mid 1960s. I've looked for a massive "Big 3 Conspiracy" and can't find any harder evidence than GM selling diesel busses.

Public transport is a lovely idea and rather fun. But it can suck a&$ when you can't get to half the places you need to go because there's no bus or train within 5 miles.
 
The only thing I am going to ad to the subject was a tiny factoid I read on CNN.com earlier today. If the worst possible scenario were to play out, the US Government alone would loose out on 100 Billion on tax revenue from the failure of the Big Three within the next few years. On top of the hundreds of thousands of job losses that are yet to come - direct and supply-chain related. Tough times are ahead, indeed.

Ben

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/18/new...tm?postversion=2008111815&eref=rss_topstories
 
Finance and Business are a lot like natural selection, the weak die out becasue they lack survival skills to adapt to the environment and stronger species survive because they do adapt and thrive.
Archaic busniess models need to be buried.

I feel for the workers, but those same workers shop at Walmart and get a window air conditioner for 99 bucks made in China, and Carrier Air Conditioning is all but out of business and was founded in this very city, becasue they would have to charge 300 dollars for the same unit made here.
We are not a manufacturing country any more, technology has globalized markets and the least expensive markets to manufacture will be the emerging nations.
GM has never made a good, reliable small car, nor has Ford or Chrysler and they have had decades to do it in.

Perhaps we should ask the oil companies to bail out the automobile industry? We taxpayers pay for the roads that the cars drive on and burn gas on, we create the forum on which their products are used.
 
Wow -- Such hate!

You know, living in Michigan and a GM town I can say about half the hate dumped here so far is true, the rest is just word of mouth crap. Up front I will say that I have never worked for any of the auto companies but most of my family has and does.

First off you are talking about MILLIONS of people loosing their jobs, that's right MILLIONS. GM, Ford and Chrysler do not employ anywhere near that amount but factor in all the suppliers, vendors and ancillary people, not to mention Stores and Restaurants that serve the workers you are talking about massive devastation. Go ahead and spout your "Let'm fail" and see what this country looks like then. It's OK for Washington to give their Wall Street cronies hundreds of billions with NO STRINGS attached, but everyone wants to beat up on Detroit? Why?

Had the auto industry not made efforts over the last decade to trim costs, shut plants, and streamline operations I too would say let them fail. But if you look at the cuts all these manufacturers have done you'll see a very different story. If you look at the latest union contract you will see a two tiered wage scale, starting employees get about $14.00/hr, can you raise a family on that? Yes, but you'd be close to poverty level.

Detroit has made a lot of crap vehicles in the past, and the attitude engendered in many of the posters here is a result of decisions made decades ago. It simply isn't true any more. Detroit makes cars as good as if not better than their competitors, it's just people's perceptions are rooted in the 80's. while you may dislike some of the decisions Detroit has made, killing an entire industry out of spite is stupid.

Feel free to read this link:

http://www.freep.com/article/20081117/COL14/811170379/?imw=Y
 
For those who wont click:

6 myths about the Detroit 3

BY MARK PHELAN • FREE PRESS COLUMNIST • November 17, 2008



The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are six myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.

Myth No. 1

Nobody buys their vehicles.

Reality

General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.

Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.

Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.

Myth No. 2

They build unreliable junk.

Reality

The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.

Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.

Myth No. 3

They build gas-guzzlers.

Reality

All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.

Myth No. 4

They already got a $25-billion bailout.

Reality

None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.

Myth No. 5

GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.

Reality

The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.

Myth No. 6

They don't build hybrids.

Reality

The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
 
There's nothing wrong with America's economy that can't be fixed with sane fiscal policy. E.g. we're the only industrialized country on Earth who rewards its corporations for exporting domestic jobs, and corporations have been doing exactly that since Reagan was president.

Step One: stiff tariffs on most imported goods.

Step Two: revision of our tax policy, to create economic incentives for U.S. corporations to create American jobs and eliminate incentives to outsource said jobs.

Step Three: a trade embargo on China, until they agree to play by the same rules everyone else does (currency valuation, labor laws etc).
 
Myth No. 2 - They build unreliable vehicles

Even in the face of impending financial disaster, THEY STILL CAN'T ADMIT THE FACT THE THE REASON THEY GOT INTO THIS MESS IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE CONSISTENTLY MADE CRAPPIER VEHICLES THAN TOYOTA AND HONDA. Talk about blatant denial!!!

We don't need no water let the motherf#$%&* burn! (or sink lol)

View attachment 11-19-2008-01-42-54--Tuthill.jpg
 
They build unreliable vehicles

Hi Jed,
They build unreliable vehicles alright!

The most unreliable car (Read pile of crap) I have ever had the misfortune of owning was a GM Vauxhall Vectra. JD Power rated it 120 from 120 cars tested, a placing it wholly deserved.
The Vectra cost me dearly as I had to sell it before the warranty expired, no one wanted it as the news was out about their numerous problems. I had to put a 10 month old car into a fleet car auction just to get rid, it lost £11,550 in value.

I bought a Ford Mondeo and have been driving Fords ever since, and my Fords have all been excellent reliable cars.

David
 
This is a bad place for the big three to be in.

I lived in Michigan in 1996 in Kalamazoo when they closed the parts plant and saw the sorrow on peoples' faces when they lost their jobs to Mexico and NAFTA. When you are in the middle of it, you know how important the auto industry is to Michigan. I say hlp them with big, long huge strings attached. One of those being that they do not anx the Union contracs that they have in place currently,-they make more cars like the Chevy Volt--Bring more jobs back to Michigan and stop world outsoursing all of their parts, why is it that we have to ask for this? This is an American car, not a Heinz 57, that would help someone here.No golden parashutes for the CEOs, why should they get rewarded when the lifeblood of the company, the American worker who is up close and personal to what is going on in building cars should get the short end of the stick.My mom was part of a union for the 42 years that she worked for Nabisco and was payed well for her hard work including free health care( they payed for all of it, now Kraft and did not complain about a healthy worker and their family) . The impact if the big three go down in flames will be felt by every person in this country. I personally would never own an American Car just because of their lack of intagrity in the past, they can change if they choose,then i might consider changing my mind. What happened to pride in workmanship for a compay like at the end of WWII when they went out of their way to make a product better. i feel bad that alot of what I have here for applainces is not US made by choice. My bad Maytag expierience had scared me for life against them Or the attitude that KitchenAid gave me when I called them about my mother's range. Where is the costomer service at? Miele bent over backwards to help, they also build a terrific product that for the most part is bullet proof. We should be doing it here again in this country. Get with it! We need some big improvements to the way we do things before people will be persuaded to spend their money here. I am one of them. A truely 100% American built product is all that i ask, is that so hard? Or are they just too tightwaded that they can't see the forest for the trees? Honda just opened a plant in Indiana to build Honda Civics, of which I have owned 3. Honda and Toyota are not asking to borrow money to bail themselves out. Why is that ? Nissan builds cars in Smerna, Tenn, and employ lots of people and well as Honda in Ohio, granted they do build the parts in Japan, the are built here.
 
As a member of a family that has almost always bought American. I do have to say that I disagree with 'everything they make is crap' idea.

The worst car my parents ever owned was an 87 Toyota Pickup, drove well but it was made like a tin can. I hit it in idle speed with my 98 Ford Escort and MANGLED the bumper. Meanwhile my car just had a little black mark on its bumper. My father sold it after that and bought a F150 (cost a little more to operate, but a hell of a lot safer crash rating). I'm very pleased with my Escort. I'm still driving it and see lots of them on the roads.

I still drive the family's Chevy Caprice, notably a large car, that will turn 30 next year. It survived being flooded by a hurricane and still drives strong. My mother drives her 98 Buick daily and hasn't had any issues.

My Grandmother has always bought Ford, and even with 'the worst one' the '81 T-bird, she drove it daily for 12 years without major incident.

I agree Detroit has had its share of lemons and the styles/quality (i.e plastics) isn't what it used to be, but nothing is (even Honda, Toyotas, Maytags and Zeniths). We've haven't had problems with our vehicles. I'd recommend them.
 
Regardless of our feelings,

we have to consider the consequences of our actions here.

It is one thing for me to only buy drive Chevys and Cadillacs (I adore those gay ads Cadillac does and it is my very small, penniless way to reward them for supporting gays). My boycotting Ford for their racist, anti-gay policies here in Europe is of the same motivation, why give my money to people who attack me?

That said, were it my decision (may the gods forefend!) I would do everything in my power to keep both GM and Ford alive.

Not, of course, in their present form and under their current idiot leadership. Nor yet under a 5-year plan and collectivized leadership.

Every coherent thinker I have read over the last few months is in agreement, regardless of their feelings or orientations: If the car makers go under, we will have an economic meltdown against which the 1930's were an era of negative unemployment and a chicken in every pot.

I have no solutions, but I do note that exactly those growth industries of the future involve the processes, technologies, capital machinery and workers, skilled and unskilled which Detroit possesses in abundance.

Americans will never accept mass transit as we have it here in Germany, so be it. But that doesn't mean those areas of the country can't apply 21st century technology to solve their transportation problems where the current one person/car solution doesn't work (anybody driven in Manhattan or Denver recently?).

Solar power is already competitive and available now. Nuclear power plants, even when forced (how ironic that when it is a conservative idea, people think the government should intervene, when it is a liberal idea, the government should butt out) will take years and years to come on line. There is also the problem that we do not have an unlimited supply of fusible materials.

Let GM and Ford build their electric cars. Sure, the current storage technology sucks. It is, however, adequate. They can contribute enormously to mass-production of solar panels and wind-farms, these are no longer specialized technologies but amenable to mass production.

When the atomic power plants come on line, then we can solve the drinking water problem and the hydrogen fuel problem. But that is way down the road in any decent volume. We need solutions now. Our petroleum resources are needed for the many capital good which can not be produced from any other raw material. Wasting them as fuel is a luxury we can no longer afford.

You don't get more milk by whipping Bossy, you only get an angry cow with no or only sour milk. Sure, we'd all like to throttle the idiots at GM and Ford. We don't have that luxury. Better to bail them out and have them produce what people need.
 
Would anyone here WANT to work for an automaker?

I know I would be ready to scream in about 45 minutes if I had put one part in one place in job many times a day! The problem I see is that the automakers are paying people to build a product that people simply do not like to buy - and as, I say above, doesn't do much for humanity. When you listen to what the CEOs have to say, it is bail us out or people will Lose Their Jobs! A bailout to me seems like an expensive make-work program. Now I am going to be Really Mean - these workers have to support their families, but nobody forced them to have a family or to have kids. If they were just by themselves or had a small family they would need their job, but not as badly.

Actually, bankrupcy could be the best thing that happens to the workers in the long term, though it will be hard at first - they can figure out what kind of work they like to do and make it a career.
 
Michael Moore is on Larry King tonight, he is not a fool, and was raised in Flint Michigan. The younger set among us might want to watch, "Roger & Me", if nothing else you will get a sense of deja vu. alr2903
 
my opinion..... no..............

a loan won't fix Detroit automakers. They need to file bankrupcy so that they can attack all of the costs that kill their competitiveness in the world market. They also need to get rid of some piss-poor management staff and practises they've embedded into their companies for forever.

The top management needs to sell their airplanes and they can buy their own private airplane to use. That is what our company President/CEO did. These guys make way to much for what they've accomplished in their industry. Time to clean house.

I'm not saying they should be shut-down, just basically re-structure how they operate. I like Mitt Romney's assessment of the situation. He hit the nail right on the head on that one.
 
And what costs would those be????

Here is what came out during the hearings today:

"At least two of the executives -- Alan Mulally of Ford and Rick Waggoner of GM -- agreed with Gettelfinger's description of the UAW's concessions.

Excerpt from Gettelfinger's comments:

Some commentators have asserted that "overly rich contracts" negotiated by the UAW are to blame for the companies' current situation, and suggested that workers and retirees should be required to take deep cuts in their wages and benefits. This totally ignores the recent history in the auto industry and the facts regarding wages and benefits at the Detroit-based companies.

The truth is that in 2005 the UAW agreed to reopen the contracts mid-term, and accepted cuts in workers' wages and in health care benefits for retirees. Then, in the general 2007 collective bargaining negotiations, the UAW agreed to what industry analysts have called a "transformational" contract that fundamentally altered labor costs for the Detroit-based auto companies. This contract slashed wages for new hires by 50%. Furthermore, new hires will not be covered by the traditional retiree health care and defined benefit pension plans. In addition, this contract stipulated that beginning January 1, 2010 the liability for health care benefits for existing retirees would be transferred from the companies to an independent fund (a Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association, or VEBA). This agreement has subsequently been approved by federal courts, which have appointed a majority of the trustees who will be independent of the UAW and responsible for managing the VEBA. Taken together, the changes made by the 2005 and 2007 contracts reduced the companies' retiree health care liabilities by fifty percent.

As a result of all these painful concessions, the gap in labor costs that had previously existed between the Detroit-based auto companies and the foreign transplant operations will be largely or completely eliminated by the end of the contracts. Indeed, one industry analyst has indicated that labor costs for the Detroit-based auto companies will actually be lower than those for Toyota's U.S. operations. Thus, the truth is the UAW and our active and retired members have already stepped up to the plate and made the hard changes that were necessary to make our companies competitive in terms of their labor costs.

It is also important to note that union negotiated work rules cannot be blamed for the current problems facing the Detroit-based companies. According to the Harbour Report, the industry benchmark for productivity, union-represented workers are actually more efficient than their counterparts at non-union auto plants. And union-made vehicles built by the Detroit-based auto companies are winning quality awards from Consumer Reports, J.D. Power, and other industry analysts."
 
You tell 'em Matt

I'm a union member (professors, lecturers and teachers can organize over here) and am proud of it.

Without the unions, we would have none of the health, safety and social benefits which, today, we take for granted.
 
They may be winning awards for quality today, but, NONE of the big three have a reputation for quality that can touch Honda or Toyota at this point. And that is truly a disgrace in a country like the US. No, a loan will not save them. That would take a series of loans to do! But unless they re-invent their business processes and product lineup, they're doomed. GM and Ford bet the bank on their truck lines, which, obviously was the wrong bet in the face of rapidly rising gas prices. And that's their own damned fault. We can use the excuse that "demand drives the market", and it does, to a point. But marketing and advertising helps shape the market appetite, and what these companies touted was trucks. It would be funny to see oil companies bail them out!

Now that being said, I have a GM car, a 1998 Buick. It's anything but a piece of junk. It is not an economy car by any means, but it's not a gas guzzler either. It's supremely comfortable, very powerful, and smooth handling and, after almost 150,000 miles still doesn't have a single squeak, rattle or shake. Like any other car though, it's not maintenance free! Sure, I guess I can afford a new car, but why? This one runs just fine, even after 11 years.
 
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