P&G Discontinues Powder Products in Latin America
- Thread starter liamy1
- Start date
This is not true. Both chemicals release hydrogen peroxide. What is the difference between hydrogen peroxide released by sodium perborate and the one released by sodium percarbonate? There is absolutely no difference. It is still hydrogen peroxide - ineffective bleach under 60°C. The difference is how fast the two compounds release H2O2. Percarbonate releases it faster.
These "cold water bleach" and "colour safe bleach" are just marketing gimmicks for me. I bet both products which claim these contain percarbonate.
H2O2 is not effective bleach and that's why activator is added. TAED gives peracetic acid, NOBS gives peroxynonanoic acid. Both are peroxy acids with powerful bleaching action at any pemperature.
Sorry, but every detergent for whites without activator is rubbish.
Sodium perborate is so rarely used nowadays. Definitely is not used in Europe and I doubt it's use in the USA.
These "cold water bleach" and "colour safe bleach" are just marketing gimmicks for me. I bet both products which claim these contain percarbonate.
H2O2 is not effective bleach and that's why activator is added. TAED gives peracetic acid, NOBS gives peroxynonanoic acid. Both are peroxy acids with powerful bleaching action at any pemperature.
Sorry, but every detergent for whites without activator is rubbish.
Sodium perborate is so rarely used nowadays. Definitely is not used in Europe and I doubt it's use in the USA.
launderess
Well-known member
Sorry, but it happens to be true.
Do some research on the matter and you'll find the answers to your questions.
Hydrogen peroxide in liquid form is *NOT* an effective fast acting bleach at lower temperatures (> 60c) and neutral to only slightly alkaline conditions. When commercial laundries and or dry cleaners want to use liquid hydrogen peroxide they use various techniques to either speed up or slow down the reaction. This normally means increasing or decreasing the temperature and or adding some sort of alkaline substance (such as ammonia) to speed up the reaction. Laundries in France long have used liquid hydrogen peroxide for bleaching but they also do so at elevated to boil wash temperatures.
If you look at bottles of liquid oxygen bleaches sold in shops the better ones such as Clorox2 contain some type of alkaline substance. This is done to boost the performance but still such bleaches are not as powerful as the powdered versions.
The reason some prefer liquid hydrogen peroxide is that it decomposes basically into water leaving no residue, this means less rinsing. Also lack of alkaline pH means you can use liquid hydrogen peroxide to bleach wool and silk.
Powdered oxygen bleaches take on the properties of substance hydrogen peroxide was added to for creation. Borax is not as alkaline as washing soda so the resulting sodium perborate while still an oxygen bleach (releases hydrogen peroxide/oxygen in water) it is the more gentle of the two. Sodium percarbonate owing to its sodium carbonate base breaks down into hydrogen peroxide *and* soda ash in water. The addition of the latter makes for a more powerful bleach and one that will work in cooler water temps than sodium perborate.
http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/taed.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate
P&G Patents
http://www.google.com/patents/US4539130
Do some research on the matter and you'll find the answers to your questions.
Hydrogen peroxide in liquid form is *NOT* an effective fast acting bleach at lower temperatures (> 60c) and neutral to only slightly alkaline conditions. When commercial laundries and or dry cleaners want to use liquid hydrogen peroxide they use various techniques to either speed up or slow down the reaction. This normally means increasing or decreasing the temperature and or adding some sort of alkaline substance (such as ammonia) to speed up the reaction. Laundries in France long have used liquid hydrogen peroxide for bleaching but they also do so at elevated to boil wash temperatures.
If you look at bottles of liquid oxygen bleaches sold in shops the better ones such as Clorox2 contain some type of alkaline substance. This is done to boost the performance but still such bleaches are not as powerful as the powdered versions.
The reason some prefer liquid hydrogen peroxide is that it decomposes basically into water leaving no residue, this means less rinsing. Also lack of alkaline pH means you can use liquid hydrogen peroxide to bleach wool and silk.
Powdered oxygen bleaches take on the properties of substance hydrogen peroxide was added to for creation. Borax is not as alkaline as washing soda so the resulting sodium perborate while still an oxygen bleach (releases hydrogen peroxide/oxygen in water) it is the more gentle of the two. Sodium percarbonate owing to its sodium carbonate base breaks down into hydrogen peroxide *and* soda ash in water. The addition of the latter makes for a more powerful bleach and one that will work in cooler water temps than sodium perborate.
http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/taed.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate
P&G Patents
http://www.google.com/patents/US4539130
"The addition of the latter makes for a more powerful bleach and one that will work in cooler water temps than sodium perborate."
Good point but it doesn't make it more powerful and it doesn't work better in cool water.
For bleaching with hydrogen peroxide you need high temperature and high pH. Not to mention you need high concentration.
Sodium percarbonate is sodium carbonate/hydrogen peroxide - 2/3. The pH needs to be 10-11 for hydrogen peroxide to start effective oxidation. You can't reach that level with sodium carbonate "released" by sodium percarbonate only in the solution.
The process takes hours.
Good point but it doesn't make it more powerful and it doesn't work better in cool water.
For bleaching with hydrogen peroxide you need high temperature and high pH. Not to mention you need high concentration.
Sodium percarbonate is sodium carbonate/hydrogen peroxide - 2/3. The pH needs to be 10-11 for hydrogen peroxide to start effective oxidation. You can't reach that level with sodium carbonate "released" by sodium percarbonate only in the solution.
The process takes hours.
If you'd need 120F or more to get bleaching from H202, how come that I use it on my hair?
I just wanted to add my 3 thoughts:
1. As soon as their is any bleaching activity, enzyme activity is dramaticly decreased. Funny enough, any tensides work prety consistently independent of any laundering factor (time, temperature). Only thing that counts is the concentration.
2. One way to bypass this enzyme/bleach barier is to make the release of either not time but temperature dependent. Basicly binding the bleaching agent to a molecule that only decomposes at a certain temperature.
3. You shouldn't forget about the direct oxdizing route. Pure 02 and more so free non-binary O-Atoms are incredibly potent agents. No matter of temperature lr way of application.
I just wanted to add my 3 thoughts:
1. As soon as their is any bleaching activity, enzyme activity is dramaticly decreased. Funny enough, any tensides work prety consistently independent of any laundering factor (time, temperature). Only thing that counts is the concentration.
2. One way to bypass this enzyme/bleach barier is to make the release of either not time but temperature dependent. Basicly binding the bleaching agent to a molecule that only decomposes at a certain temperature.
3. You shouldn't forget about the direct oxdizing route. Pure 02 and more so free non-binary O-Atoms are incredibly potent agents. No matter of temperature lr way of application.
Yeah, sure, but there is no breaking point in reaction as you describe.
Sure a high temperature or high concentration increaes reactivity, but its not need per se. A bleaching agent in its active form (e.g H2O2) is active independent of temperature or concentration.
Temperature impacts reaction speed, concentration in ratio to soil how effective it cleans. Sadly, cleaning in these terms includes our beloved enzymes as well.
In detergents, higher temperatures are used to release the bleaching agents from their molecules or to shift the enzyme/bleach balance towards the bleaching side of things. Or to simply speed up things.
Sure a high temperature or high concentration increaes reactivity, but its not need per se. A bleaching agent in its active form (e.g H2O2) is active independent of temperature or concentration.
Temperature impacts reaction speed, concentration in ratio to soil how effective it cleans. Sadly, cleaning in these terms includes our beloved enzymes as well.
In detergents, higher temperatures are used to release the bleaching agents from their molecules or to shift the enzyme/bleach balance towards the bleaching side of things. Or to simply speed up things.
launderess
Well-known member
you'd need 120F or more to get bleaching from H202, how
You can't fight chemistry son.
The powdered bleach contains an alkaline substance, while the developer is hydrogen peroxide. Mix the two together in the proper portions and you get bleaching action.
Pretty much colors/dyes work on the same principle; peroxide developer added to an alkaline pH color product (what is in the tubes, bottles, etc...).
As for the balance of this discussion:
http://www.runyoutech.com/htm/faq.htm
http://www.aboutcleaningproducts.com/science/details-of-bleaches/
http://www.laundry-alternative.com/oxygen-bleach/
You can't fight chemistry son.
The powdered bleach contains an alkaline substance, while the developer is hydrogen peroxide. Mix the two together in the proper portions and you get bleaching action.
Pretty much colors/dyes work on the same principle; peroxide developer added to an alkaline pH color product (what is in the tubes, bottles, etc...).
As for the balance of this discussion:
http://www.runyoutech.com/htm/faq.htm
http://www.aboutcleaningproducts.com/science/details-of-bleaches/
http://www.laundry-alternative.com/oxygen-bleach/
grwasher_expert
Well-known member
Persil liquid for whites
Recently a sample of "Persil absolute white"(equivalent to german Perwoll) has gotten into my hands.It is a liquid detergent specially formulated for whites.I took a look to the ingredients and I didn't see any form of oxygen or chlorine bleach.It only contains surfactants, soap, enzymes, optical brighteners and perfumes.But it is written that it contains "special formula that restores whiteness" and "Anti-gray action".How on earth does it whiten clothes without any form of bleaching agent?Do the optical brighteners alone do the job?
Recently a sample of "Persil absolute white"(equivalent to german Perwoll) has gotten into my hands.It is a liquid detergent specially formulated for whites.I took a look to the ingredients and I didn't see any form of oxygen or chlorine bleach.It only contains surfactants, soap, enzymes, optical brighteners and perfumes.But it is written that it contains "special formula that restores whiteness" and "Anti-gray action".How on earth does it whiten clothes without any form of bleaching agent?Do the optical brighteners alone do the job?
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