P&G Discontinues Powder Products in Latin America

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Powders contain sodium percarbonate - this is stable compound. Liquids usually contain hydrogen peroxide - quite unstable, that's why you have to buy them fresh and not older then 6 months. Powders are much stable when kept dry.

Sodium percarbonate releases hydrogen peroxide. H2O2 is not effective bleach itself especially in temperatures below 60°. That's why powders contain activator (TAED in Europe, NOBS in USA and Asia). When activator is TAED, the actual bleaching agent is peracetic acid. When activator is NOBS, the actual bleaching agent peroxynonanoic acid. Both are quite good bleaches at any temperature.

It's not possible to use hydrogen peroxide and enzymes in the same liquid formula.

Interestingly, in my part of Europe Henkel's Pesil power mix caps used to contain 15-30% oxygen bleach in the powder chamber, but in the batches from this yeas the oxygen bleach was removed.
 
Doesn`t surprise me at all there`s no bleach in those powder-liquid caps.
Just imagine what it`d do to your clothes when used in the "wrong" washer.
I think spot bleaching is the technical term.
My first own washer, a cr**y 1980`s Indesit just tumbled six times (IIRC) while filling with cold water then sat static for a long time until the water reached 40°C.
 
Vanish liquid or gel contains hydrogen peroxide but no enzymes.It is smooth liquid,it doesn't contain any granules.So I suppose that the same formula could be used to make a liquid detergent with bleach.But I don't know what would happen if enzymes and oxygen were present in the same solution
 
So a liquid can contain EITHER enzymes OR bleach(peroxide) but NEVER both.A bio liquid is always bleachless while a liquid with bleach must always be non-bio.The only way to combine them in a single product would be a capsule with 2 separate chambers,the first with regular bio liquid and the second one with a hydrogen peroxide bleach.Once the capsule disolves,the 2 components would be simultaneously activated during the wash
 
So a liquid can contain EITHER enzymes OR bleach(peroxide) b

That would make sense, only thing though is I wonder why our Non Bio Liquid detergents don't contain Bleach then (Fairy, Persil etc).

Only thing I can think of, is if the liquids had bleach as well as the powder, there would essentially be no bleach free non bio detergent, so people who wouldn't use anything but a non bio wouldn't have a "colour care" option. Plus it would go against the grain of all liquids being bleach free - and not many people know, or care what ingredients are in their detergent so they wouldn't check.
 
As you say,non-bio liquids are meant to be used with coloreds,so they don't add bleach.As soon as we have powders,there is no reason for the companies to struggle to come up with a liquid detergent with bleach.Just use powder with whites and that's it.But in markets where companies are stupidly abolishing powders such as latin America,they have to find a way to integrate bleach in liquids,otherwise people should always either boil wash their whites or use Vanish every time washing whites in order to compensate for the absence of bleach and get them as clean as if they were washed with powder.
 
Non-Bio is available only in UK. Why bother changing the formula for one market only?
Plus, I told you that liquids with H2O2 are very unstable - 6 months after manufacturing and you have nothing but additional water in the bottle. Plus I told you that H2O2 is ineffective bleach. Even they add H2O2 in non-bio liquid, it will never be as effective as powder. Yes, sodium percarbonate in the powders releases H2O2, but the activator in the formula leads to peroxy acids which are the actual bleaching agent. No activator can be added in liquid formula.
 
Non-Bio is available only in UK. Why bother changing the for

That as the case may be, but non bio happens to be a massive seller over here (our leading brand of detergent sells not far off 2x the amount non bio as it does it's bio). And of course, my wants will focus around UK brands, not other markets.

You also said that the reason H2O2 was not in use in liquids was becasue of the the denature of enzymes, something a non bio does not possess.

GR_Washer - the truth is, detergent manufacturers won't care if it is the best solution for whites; as long as you buy their detergent, they're happy. And as liquid detergent is cheaper to produce, they're even happier. It also opens up the need for "laundry booster" products - another revenue stream.
 
Yes, but I also said that the formula will be unstable, with very short shelf life - not related with the enzymes. If there was a way, they would add bleach in the liquids long time ago.
 
"Sodium percarbonate releases hydrogen peroxide. H2O2 is not effective bleach itself especially in temperatures below 60°."

Not entirely correct. Methinks you are confusing sodium perborate and sodium percarbonate. Both release oxygen (hydrogen peroxide) in water, but have different qualities.

Long the staple of "boil wash" bleaching (the original Persil was Sodium PERborate and SILicate along with soap)sodium perborate which is made from treating borax with peroxide will only effectively bleach at elevated temperatures (>60c/140F). Lower temperatures require vastly longer contact time.

OTOH sodium percarbonate (made from treating washing soda with hydrogen peroxide)will begin effectively bleaching in warm or even cold water. In the laundry world sodium percarbonate is known as the "cold water bleach" for this reason.

OTOH sodium perborate without activators was and still is sold as a "color safe" bleach. This is because one is likely not to launder colours at tempertures elevated enough to cause the perborate to bleach effectively. P&G also added small amounts of sodium perborate to Cheer powder detergent as its "ColorGuard" formula. This is because oxygen bleach and chlorine bleach to an extent cancel each other out. Most tap water in the USA is chlorinated....

To get around the elevated temperature requirements for sodium perborate bleach activators (TAED in Europe, NBOS in USA) were invented. In water these chemicals react with hydrogen peroxide to create peracetic acid, a powerful bleaching and disinfecting agent. So much so it is used to sterilize beer and ale bottles before use.

The creation of bleach activators came along during the energy crisis of the 1970's when in both Europe and the USA the population was urged to save energy. By Ariel, Persil and other TOL European detergents promised the same boil wash results even when "turning down the dial". You've heard the adverts; "when the stain says hot, but the label says not..". Well those were pushing the supposed ability of these new "activated bleach" detergents to clean even at lower temps.

Due to cost and stability issues sodium percarbonate was rarely used in laundry detergents, pre-soaks, oxygen bleaches.... However the EU has recently put borates in their crosshairs as dangerous to the environment, so sodium perborate is out, and sodium percarbonate is in. In either case Persil, Ariel, and the rest still often include TAED (bleach activator) even though it may not be needed.

In Europe the patents on TAED long ago expired which is why P&G, Unilever, Henkel and others all can use that chemical. On this side of the pond NBOS has been held under tight control by P&G, which is why you only find activated bleaching systems in their laundry detergents, bleaches, and automatic dishwasher powders.

P&G first introduced activated bleaching with BIZ, it then went onto Oxydol, then finally Tide with Bleach. Today you can find P&G's activated bleaching system in many Tide, Gain, and other laundry detergent/bleaching products as well as Cascade dishwasher powder. You can tell where it is by looking at the patent numbers listed on packet.

P&G over the years keeps tweaking their activated bleaching system and filing new patents. Thus NBOS has never come out of protection so anyone else can get at it, and P&G does not license the rights. When P&G sold off Oxydol and Biz they did not give the rights to the activated bleaching system, so both products are not the same as before.
 
This is not true. Both chemicals release hydrogen peroxide. What is the difference between hydrogen peroxide released by sodium perborate and the one released by sodium percarbonate? There is absolutely no difference. It is still hydrogen peroxide - ineffective bleach under 60°C. The difference is how fast the two compounds release H2O2. Percarbonate releases it faster.

These "cold water bleach" and "colour safe bleach" are just marketing gimmicks for me. I bet both products which claim these contain percarbonate.

H2O2 is not effective bleach and that's why activator is added. TAED gives peracetic acid, NOBS gives peroxynonanoic acid. Both are peroxy acids with powerful bleaching action at any pemperature.
Sorry, but every detergent for whites without activator is rubbish.

Sodium perborate is so rarely used nowadays. Definitely is not used in Europe and I doubt it's use in the USA.
 
Sorry, but it happens to be true.

Do some research on the matter and you'll find the answers to your questions.

Hydrogen peroxide in liquid form is *NOT* an effective fast acting bleach at lower temperatures (> 60c) and neutral to only slightly alkaline conditions. When commercial laundries and or dry cleaners want to use liquid hydrogen peroxide they use various techniques to either speed up or slow down the reaction. This normally means increasing or decreasing the temperature and or adding some sort of alkaline substance (such as ammonia) to speed up the reaction. Laundries in France long have used liquid hydrogen peroxide for bleaching but they also do so at elevated to boil wash temperatures.

If you look at bottles of liquid oxygen bleaches sold in shops the better ones such as Clorox2 contain some type of alkaline substance. This is done to boost the performance but still such bleaches are not as powerful as the powdered versions.

The reason some prefer liquid hydrogen peroxide is that it decomposes basically into water leaving no residue, this means less rinsing. Also lack of alkaline pH means you can use liquid hydrogen peroxide to bleach wool and silk.

Powdered oxygen bleaches take on the properties of substance hydrogen peroxide was added to for creation. Borax is not as alkaline as washing soda so the resulting sodium perborate while still an oxygen bleach (releases hydrogen peroxide/oxygen in water) it is the more gentle of the two. Sodium percarbonate owing to its sodium carbonate base breaks down into hydrogen peroxide *and* soda ash in water. The addition of the latter makes for a more powerful bleach and one that will work in cooler water temps than sodium perborate.

http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/taed.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate

P&G Patents

http://www.google.com/patents/US4539130
 
"The addition of the latter makes for a more powerful bleach and one that will work in cooler water temps than sodium perborate."

Good point but it doesn't make it more powerful and it doesn't work better in cool water.
For bleaching with hydrogen peroxide you need high temperature and high pH. Not to mention you need high concentration.
Sodium percarbonate is sodium carbonate/hydrogen peroxide - 2/3. The pH needs to be 10-11 for hydrogen peroxide to start effective oxidation. You can't reach that level with sodium carbonate "released" by sodium percarbonate only in the solution.
The process takes hours.
 
If you'd need 120F or more to get bleaching from H202, how come that I use it on my hair?

I just wanted to add my 3 thoughts:

1. As soon as their is any bleaching activity, enzyme activity is dramaticly decreased. Funny enough, any tensides work prety consistently independent of any laundering factor (time, temperature). Only thing that counts is the concentration.

2. One way to bypass this enzyme/bleach barier is to make the release of either not time but temperature dependent. Basicly binding the bleaching agent to a molecule that only decomposes at a certain temperature.

3. You shouldn't forget about the direct oxdizing route. Pure 02 and more so free non-binary O-Atoms are incredibly potent agents. No matter of temperature lr way of application.
 
"If you'd need 120F or more to get bleaching from H202, how come that I use it on my hair?"

Concentration of H2O2, dear henene4.
Try to bleach your hair with washing powder or pure percarbonate and tell me the results.
 
Yeah, sure, but there is no breaking point in reaction as you describe.

Sure a high temperature or high concentration increaes reactivity, but its not need per se. A bleaching agent in its active form (e.g H2O2) is active independent of temperature or concentration.

Temperature impacts reaction speed, concentration in ratio to soil how effective it cleans. Sadly, cleaning in these terms includes our beloved enzymes as well.

In detergents, higher temperatures are used to release the bleaching agents from their molecules or to shift the enzyme/bleach balance towards the bleaching side of things. Or to simply speed up things.
 
you'd need 120F or more to get bleaching from H202, how

You can't fight chemistry son.

The powdered bleach contains an alkaline substance, while the developer is hydrogen peroxide. Mix the two together in the proper portions and you get bleaching action.

Pretty much colors/dyes work on the same principle; peroxide developer added to an alkaline pH color product (what is in the tubes, bottles, etc...).

As for the balance of this discussion:

http://www.runyoutech.com/htm/faq.htm

http://www.aboutcleaningproducts.com/science/details-of-bleaches/

http://www.laundry-alternative.com/oxygen-bleach/
 
Persil liquid for whites

Recently a sample of "Persil absolute white"(equivalent to german Perwoll) has gotten into my hands.It is a liquid detergent specially formulated for whites.I took a look to the ingredients and I didn't see any form of oxygen or chlorine bleach.It only contains surfactants, soap, enzymes, optical brighteners and perfumes.But it is written that it contains "special formula that restores whiteness" and "Anti-gray action".How on earth does it whiten clothes without any form of bleaching agent?Do the optical brighteners alone do the job?

grwasher_expert-2016111707212206915_1.jpg
 

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