please call your congress critters and oppose this.

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Uh, what's the

big whoop?

Most adults have a state issued photo id, if not a driver's license, so what's the big whoop?

Also, if a person carries an United States passport, that's a nationally accessable id......

Yeah, I am a Democrat, but I also know that the only truly private place for now is between a person's ears.

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
I am not

entirely sure, but I don't think you can even see a doctor in Colorado without photo ID, anymore...and any refund at Wyoming Walmarts require photo ID.

Isn't it kinda late in the game to be upset about this? After all, you can't even refuse to give your SSN anymore to just about every store - and that was expressly forbidden way back in the beginning.

Maybe it's because we have ID cards in Europe and more civil rights than Americans do, but it's just not that big a deal.

Of course, over here, gays have full human status which we don't in the US, either.
 
biometric identification.

Once you start adding biometric identification, not to mention requiring such a card for every day activities (and it WILL BE look at how many times you must give your social security number) you are right up there with Nazi Germany who found all the jews and gay folks via census records.

It is tyranny. Pure and simple.
 
I already had to give out my biometric information. Working for school systems, I've had to give up fingerprints, both to the City Of New York and the state of New Jersey. Not a big deal for me.

I don't think you can figure out if someone is gay or Jewish using biometric information. Also, we're not in Nazi Germany.

Nevertheless... what does this card do for the average American? If the only point is to prevent illegal labor, shouldn't other systems already in place deal with that? I hate to think we're on the cusp of spending a bunch of money on yet another thing that might not work. Maybe we fix what we have already?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
 
The biometric requirement

was put in by the rethuglicans under the shrub dictatorship, so we need not discuss that.

Yes, it is quite true that the Nazis used everything they could to track down and murder Jews, Roma, gays and handicapped children.
The US is not, however, Nazi Germany.

There are several million Mexicans, South Americans and people from the Philippines who have applied legally for green cards. They have followed all the rules, done everything "good Americans" want them to do - and they must wait and wait, some up to 20 years for their green card.
Yup, you read that right. Twenty years.

As much as I despise the christianist,fascist Arizona regime, we just plain must not forget that there are at least 450,000 undocumented people in Arizona.

Every police officer who approaches one of them is putting him or herself at risk.
Americans who would be willing to work can't find work because businesses find it cheaper to hire undocumented workers at slave labor pay.

The educational and medical systems as well as other infra-structure are breaking down because these people can't find legal work.

We need comprehensive immigration reform and we need it soon. Fair and balanced. Right now, for instance, there are well over 100,000 American gays living abroad with their partners because American immigration law does not recognize foreign gay marriage and partnerships. In fact, despite the promises of our "strong advocate", it is still the case that as soon as an American marries someone of the same sex abroad, their new spouse is denied entry into the US.

Let's at least see what Washington has to offer before we start throwing stones. The current situation is untenable.

Of course, this would be an excellent opportunity to finally grant gays full human status.[this post was last edited: 4/30/2010-12:11]
 
Can we please drop the Nazi nonsense? PLEASE?

Arizona passed a law that strengthens and supports the federal law. They are going to do the job the feds won't do. Good for them and let's see the feds grow a set and step up to the plate (fat chance under this administration).

And because of this administration, there will be nothing for gay people in any immigration reform. Nothing. He has no intention on doing anything because it isn't a hot button. Got to make political hay while he can, and unless he is stumping in California, it won't come up and/or be addressed.
 
The fascist-christianist Gauleiterin

of Arizona also just removed every single one of the rights gays had been extended under the previous administration in Arizona.
We now have zero rights in that state.
Zero.

Peter, I'm a little surprised that a conservative would support a law which imperils police officers and puts American citizens in the position of having to prove justify their comings and goings to government officials?
 
Peter, you have a point

And if I hadn't hit the button so fast, I wouldn't be posting twice.
Somebody needs to point out to this administration and do it soon that without our votes, they haven't got a snowball's chance in hell in Dixie - we are big in the cities and without us, buh-bye Democrats, hullo secessionists. Or worse.[this post was last edited: 4/30/2010-13:41]

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary...use-and-what-major-progress-do-we-have-bupkis
 
at this point...

I'm thinking the secessionists might not have a bad idea.

And I hate that thought. This land was once the best and freest place on earth.

No longer.

The boomers have won - we now are a 3rd world pit.
 
Oh, Hunter

I had the "pleasure" of travelling throughout communist Europe back in the day.

The US at her worst is enormously better than that was.

You really have to live abroad for a while - I mean live, not just visit, to understand just how good the US government is. The US Constitution even withstood the onslaughts of the shrub dictatorship.

Yes, you would have more civil rights in Western Europe (outside of the UK, but that's a special case). You would walk safer streets, see fewer people dying in agony because they might become "addicted" to pain-killers.
Fewer children aborted, fewer marriages end in divorce.
You'd see gays treated as human beings and the strictest separation of church and state.
Good education systems, integration of the mentally and physically handicapped into normal society.
A drive for energy independence (Germany wants to achieve total independence from gas by 2015, we are on schedule to make it and achieve electrical independence by 2018).

Great food, great beer, six-week vacations and a much higher degree of happiness than in the US.

And you would hate it.

Part of being a libertarian is having a system to be angry about. Look at all the good things you have going for you in the US. No, it's not perfect but a country which can still muster so much outrage over ID cards and that fascist governor next door to you is still alive and kicking.

But, if you do come over, would you bring PeterH, please? I want to see the look on his face when he finds out that our capitalists have a higher return on investment than they do in the US...
 
actually I would love to...

I would love to live in Europe for a while. I tried to get a job in UK in the early 1990s, but that didn't work out - which is just as well as they have become a real Big Brother type state.

But I would enjoy Germany or Switzerland.

One thing I have noticed is that Europeans in general put a lot of thought into what they do, as do I. It is a pleasure to deal with them.

Hunter
 
but...this is not immigration reform.

It is further control of the US populace, pure and simple.

Do any of you know who Fred Reed is? His blogs are very entertaining.
 
control of the populace?

I'm with the others who can't understand how that is true when you cannot hold a job, enroll in a public school or most all colleges and universities without a Social Security card. You cannot get Medicare/Medicaid benefits without an ID card. You cannot drive a car without valid ID on your person at all times. You cannot board an aircraft, enter another country, on and on. So another form of ID, that likely would supplant a current required ID card is subverting our rights how? It just makes no sense and sounds more like that defective Glenn Beck-style fear-mongering.

Just like the Arizona "Papers Please, Pablo" law, portions of the recent health-care finance reform bill, any coming immigration "reform" and all others must stand up to the test of constitutional muster. [this post was last edited: 4/30/2010-16:35]
 
And you are now seeing my point...

Gansky1, you're seeing my point, yes.

And what happens when you're tracked constantly with an RFID enabled national ID card?

"At this time you were here so you must be guilty of this crime" "But I wasn't!" "Ah, but the RFID in your card says you were! Cuff him!"

It's not what it is used for now, it is what it will be used for.

Honestly you people are as bad as the Republicans. If it is your boy who says something it is okay...
 
No one is talking about RFID in the cards as far as i have heard. Plus the range of an RFID transmitter is low, typically 3.5' or if they are super sized up to 65'. Using that to track someone would require a massive security net, and that expenditure is not likely to happen for a long time if it was ever to be feasible.

I think the simple answer for a Nation ID card would be to integrate it into existing Id. My MI drivers License has a magnetic strip with all the pertinent info, just add whatever else is needed, same with ID card for non-drivers. There is no need for another layer of bureaucracy.

In today's world it is very easy to track most anyone via credit card use. I though about it and I really don't care if Visa knows I like Crest toothpaste and Charmin bath tissue. If I did I'd use cash, and not use store discount programs. I'm sure there is a very thick file on me since I use credit cards for basically every thing I buy, it's just easier. Easier to track spending, easier to track down a receipt, easier to in general. If you want to live under the radar for the most part, and I think it's pretty hard you'd have to use cash for everything, no checks even. It's doable, but hard, and for me not worth the trouble.
 
"If I did I'd use cash, and not use store discount programs."

I remember when those @#%Q#$@# sale cards came out, privacy advocates were really worried in my area. Apparently, some people still refuse to have a card for that reason.

One grocery store, Albertsons), gives cards (or has given cards in the past) without requiring any name/address/contact info. Although they encourage people to give contact info in case the card gets lost or whatever. For that matter, one can get the prices without having a card in other stores--all you need is a phone number for a valid card holder.
 
RFID is in it...

...or was in one proposal at all.

BTW Panthera, yes, as a Libertarian who believes in freedom I will not be satisfied with most systems of government. Remember, as lovely as Europe is, as far as I know (and if I am wrong, please do enlighten me) there are NOT constitutions that enshrine limitations on government power based on natural rights, as ours does. Instead, there are privileges that exist at the whim of the government in power.

But I have a bigger question for all of you: Why do you think such infringement on your natural rights is acceptable? Why do you not care that you're tracked, monitored, and controlled? Do you hate the idea of a non surveillance society that much? Please note that I am NOT being inflammatory but I am genuinely curious. Do you use EZ Pass? If so, why do you not seem to mind that your every entrance/exit onto the highway is stored forever? Do yo have facebook? Why do you not mind personal information being given freely to Facebook forever? I'm GENUINELY curious as I don't understand it.

As for tracking via RFID, it won't require that massive of one - it just requires points of it and you can extrapolate from there. And you might also argue that we already have such a massive network -- just modify rfid chips to be 'pinged' by cell towers and there you have it.

And of course with linked databases and an absolute identity verification - not to mention a centralized health database which was in the Obamacare bill - you could be denied treatments and coverage for any type of health condition if you were 'caught' eating a twinkie, a chocolate bar, or whatever...because it is against the will of the State that you do such unhealthy things. Paranoid? I think not.
 
"Peter, I'm a little surprised..."

The problem in AZ isn't so much illegal immigration, but more of a drug and violent crime problem. Most illegals sneak over and then look for work. If that was the case, it would be SNAFU. But on the AZ border, it is a drug trafficking haven. The murder of the rancher brought it to a head. So the people of AZ have had enough and the legislators reacted. I would venture to guess that the police are at more danger without this bill. Now they have a bit more teeth to nab illegals and turn them over to ICE. Not to mention that the law has something like 70+% approval in AZ and 60+% approval nationwide.

No one is going to have to prove their comings and goings UNLESS there was a law broken to begin with. Kinda like hate (thought) crimes -- you have to break the law FIRST and then prove you are here legally.

I thought I read somewhere earlier today that now the illegals are leaving AZ and moving to other more friendly areas in the country. Nice...
 
You're spot-on about the drug and gang wars going on along the border, it's getting worse by the day. I don't believe that the AZ ID law will solve any of that, it may just exacerbate the trouble and make violence against law enforcement worse.

Our "war on drugs" was lost years ago. That should be a part of the immigration discussion as well if we're ever going to solve the border/smuggling/drug problems that are all related.
 
"Remember, as lovely as Europe is, as far as I know (and if I am wrong, please do enlighten me) there are NOT constitutions that enshrine limitations on government power based on natural rights, as ours does. Instead, there are privileges that exist at the whim of the government in power."

There is one small problem with this thinking. A constitution is good ONLY as long as its honored. Putting it another way, who is more free? A person in a country with no constitution, but a government that (long term) allows freedom? Or a person in a country with a constitution that gives freedom, but has a government that does not honor those promises?

If the wrong people get long term control of the US government, I'm sure we'll see the promises of the US Constitution being broken. I hope this never happens. But--after the Bush years--I can no longer think it's impossible.
 
"Honestly you people are as bad as the Republicans. If it is your boy who says something it is okay..."

Not true, not true! I have a whole list of questions but as I'm probably unable to crash a White House party (like the Salahis (?) who were hopefully sent to Afghanistan in the surge) I quite likely won't get to ask any of them anytime soon.

Check out this guy's podcast, Dan Carlin has a show called Common Sense that is amazing in it's clarity and ability to stay above the partisan political banter and get to the real heart of matters. I wish he had a show every week.

http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/cs
 
Good for Arizona for standing up for its rights and trying to solve a problem that has basically become almost a plague in parts of the state. It's about time Americans said ENOUGH. Personally, I'm sick and friggin tired of others coming to this country and trampling all over its laws, the same laws Americans must abide by. Since when do we owe anyone and everyone citizenship here? Granted, many countries have it far worse than we ever had here, but it's not our job to solve everyone else's problems, and it never has been. That is for their governments to tackle. I have no problem with legal immigration - controlled, regulated and enforced.

We have plenty of our own here to work on, including large numbers who still live below the poverty level in this country. Before we get all high and mighty and try to save the world, let's do for our own first. I know too many seniors who live with the bare minimum, or less, and after a lifetime of hard work, that's truly a damned disgrace.

Now let's hope more states follow Arizona.
 
I agree...

...regarding constitutional government. However, I find Democrats and Republicans to be very dangerous because: If a "D" is in power the "D" folks don't object when he or she does somethign wrong, and if an "R" is in power the "R" folks don't object when he or she does something wrong.

Clinton basically sold the country out to Red China, transferring nuclear secrets among other things. No Democrat that I know objected. Bush and Obama BOTH have gutted the Fourth Amendment with the Patriot act and nobody from either party fusses.

I don't understand.

Now, as for the war on drugs, spare me. I don't take drugs, I hate drugs, I don't drink more than 6-8 drinks PER YEAR, and having said that, LEGALIZE the stuff. As with booze, if you want to have a drugging age, fine, but adults are adults and therefore SHOULD BE free to be citizens, not serfs like they are now.

I also agree that internal investment and development are seriously needed in the USA. Just make it INVESTMENT rather than shoveling money to your friends like Obama and the Democrat congress and senate have done since January, 2007. (NOT THAT THE REPUBLICANS WERE ANY BETTER! I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT.)
 
"If a 'D' is in power the 'D' folks don't object when he or she does somethign wrong, and if an 'R' is in power the 'R' folks don't object when he or she does something wrong."

I can't argue, Hunter. It seems like a pretty accurate observation.

"Now, as for the war on drugs, spare me. I don't take drugs, I hate drugs, I don't drink more than 6-8 drinks PER YEAR, and having said that, LEGALIZE the stuff. As with booze, if you want to have a drugging age, fine, but adults are adults and therefore SHOULD BE free to be citizens, not serfs like they are now."

I can't argue with this, either.

Even with the laws, I have never been able to understand mandatory drug testing at many companies. I suppose in some cases it could be argued to be a safety issue...although alcohol use/abuse can create safety issues too. Then, for many jobs, it really doesn't matter. My feeling is if the person doesn't do the job well enough--regardless of drug status--fire him or her. If he does a great job, then who really cares?

The idea of age restrictions for drugs like alcohol makes me wonder--again--why do we have a drinking age of 21 when most of the rest of the world gets by just fine with 18 or 19? Or even less? I was in high school during the time the ages were being bumped up, and the big claim was that it was to fight drunk driving. "Well," I asked my social studies teacher, "why don't they just increase penalties on DWI convictions?" He thought I had a good point, but thought it would never happen. It might inconvenience a member of Congress at some later date.
 
Hunter

Except for the UK, in Western Europe we have real constitutions.
All are modelled on the French and American to greater or lesser degree.
The German constitution was written with American "guidance" not too far from where I sit back in 1948. It is even harder to modify than is the American constitution and the passages on human rights, including for gays, religious freedom, freedom of expression can not be removed under any circumstances.
The link is worth reading. I'm not exactly in love with Kain, but he makes a valid point from time to time, this is one of those times.
On the EC level, no country may have fewer rights than are mandated, changing those requires roughly the same level of effort as in the US. But those are minimums.

So, I guess your knowledge there is incorrect regarding Western Europe. The East, well, yeah - Poland very nearly didn't make it into the EC because they had to stop torturing gays and imprisoning us.

As others here have said, any constitution is only as good as the people who permit it to be violated.

I understand the anger and frustration of the people who see tens of millions of undocumented people in their country. I don't, however, understand why someone thinks Gauleiterin Brewer's solution to the problem is constitutional.

It isn't - it requires that gen-u-whine, 100% Christian, true-blue republican voters identify themselves to whatever official decides to ask. The only criteria? That their skin be dark. Racial profiling is exactly what the Nazis used and is a major step down the road to a fascist theocracy.

Again, I really don't understand why the Americans don't protect their borders unless, of course, it is in the interests of big business to have slave labor? In the interest of the mafia and bought-off politicians to have illegal drug trade going?

Oh, no, certainly not. How ever could I think such a thing?

Anybody who thinks that politicians who only violate the human rights and dignity of "illegal aliens" will respect their rights is smoking something pretty strong. This is where I am 100% in agreement with you, Hunter. Good luck explaining it to people who have no knowledge of, no awareness of and no desire to learn that their "American" rights are hanging right now by a thread.[this post was last edited: 5/1/2010-03:44]

http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2010/04/29/congress-should-act-on-immigration-reform/
 
Oh, and for those who say:

"Another law must be violated first before the cops can ask for your papers..."
In Arizona, those "other laws" include:
Proper lawn care.
Being at a garage sale or flea market or bake sale or thrift sale or church bazaar or charity table
 

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