Point Voyager versus Clean Water Wash

[Marky_Mark]

What do you guys think about these two different KitchenAid dishwashers that are for sale close to me?  Is one better than the other?

 

Photo #1 is the Clean Water Wash version from several years ago.  I assume this alternates spray arms.

 

Photo #2 looks like it might be an older Point Voyager, in which case I don't think it would alternate spray arms.  Or is it a Tahoe or a Global Wash or something else?

 

In fact, what is a Tahoe / Global Wash anyway?

 

Mark 

 

[henene4]

That second one has a diverter, pretty certainly.

Those plastic pieces at the back wall of the tub have many names, but are basically all the same.
They are seperate nozzles that can be activated. You place pans and other heavy soil flat dishes in front of them, vertically. You set the corresponding option and some spray time is separately devoted for those items.

These have seperate positions on the diverter.
I don't think any machines with those sprays don't have a diverter.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Hi Henrik

 

From the information I've been able to glean from this site, some dishwashers with those targeted rear jets do not have a diverter and they do run the upper and lower spray arms at the same time.  When the rear jet zone option is selected by the user, there is an electromagnet outside the tub that "pulls" a ball into a different position.  This ball is located in the tubing that leads to the upper rack and the top sprayer.  The ball moves and activates the rear jets.  I would assume the lower wash arm would continue uninterrupted throughout.  Hopefully someone can confirm that.  If not, I'll just have to buy the machine and do some testing!

 

[qsd-dan]

I have a Point Voyager (Kitchenaid) that came with the house and I'm not at all happy with it. Things definitely need to be clean before putting them in the racks, even when using the Pots and Pan Cycle with every option selected.

Filtration SUCKS (bad design), top rack struggles to get clean, the macerator is comprised of beer can metal (at least compared to the UltraWash models) and is essentially useless, the macerator screen easily plugs up, the wash arms need to have stuff picked out of the jets on almost every run, the sump regularly needs to be cleaned out. This is on mechanically softened water.

I've been looking for a low mileage Ultra Wash to replace it. Found one last week about an hour away but it got swiped really quick.

Do NOT recommend.

 

[bigalsf]

The first one you've pictured is not a point voyager but a later series. This one alternates the wash arms, and does not run any arms while using the rear Pro-Wash jets. I have worked on several of these; they are OK but not very powerful performers (and they take it at least 2 1/2 hours to complete a normal cycle.

The second one pictured is a later generation of a Point Voyager (smaller motor, slightly different designed sump). These do not alternate the washrooms and provide a more powerful action. I have an older point voyager model that works very well; I throw everything at it, and it rarely fails to clean everything. We also have mechanically softened water.

The first one pictured is newer, however, and if it's in good condition, and you have soft water, it will work fine.

Good luck and let us know which one you pick.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Thank you very much for the insight, Dan and Alan.

 

I don't have much experience with relatively modern American dishwashers, so I want to expand my horizons by trying a few of them out and probably passing them on (unless they are worth keeping).  

 

Is this Kenmore Elite dishwasher a PowerClean?  The interior looks rather like a KUDS24 or 25.  I do already have two older PowerCleans.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

Whirlpool.

So what wash system is Whirlpool currently using on their own dishwashers? I mean, they're not making the global wash system anymore. So what are they using?[this post was last edited: 2/18/2024-16:10]

 

[appnut]

Mark, I do believe the Kenmore Elite is the last of the Power Clean --KUD24 and KUD25.

 

[bigalsf]

Kenmore DW

Yes, that is a Power Clean model. I actually had this model, and it works very well! You can program a favorite cycle and the upper rack is actually adjustable on the left side. The silverware basket also splits apart so you can use half of it if you want and have more room on the bottom rack.

If you're able to snag this, you will not be disappointed. And parts are still plentiful in case something does go wrong. Good good luck and keep us posted!

 

[Marky_Mark]

Thanks, Alan and Bob.

Alan, do you happen to remember the model number of this Kenmore dishwasher? I’d be interested to download the manual and look at the cycle chart.

Mark

 

[qsd-dan]

You'll be disappointed in the Point Voyager (and probably even more so with the newer models) compared to your Powerclean models. The only positive effect is a quieter wash.

 

[lakewebsterkid]

Point voyager vs Clean water wash

After owning both, there is no comparison. The Clean Water Wash design is significantly better. Though, that version of the Point Voyager is more of the Tahoe design which did clean better, but also ran 2.5 hours for a cycle. The Clean Water Wash DW should be a little bit better in every way except maybe longevity, though the Tahoe machines have issues too. Supposedly lots of leaks. 

 

[qsd-dan]

Just searched the 'Tube about the Clean Water Wash system. That design and filter appears to be far, far worse than my Point Voyager. Have to pull the entire dishwasher out and lay it on its back to clean/service the filter. Speaking of the filter, it looks very delicate and degrades quickly. No thanks!



I didn't see anything about the Tahoe design but I also didn't search aggressively. Does it go by another name?

 

[egress]

FWIW, that filter issue is caused if you wash items without removing stickers. the stickers partially dissolve but the cellulose fibers dont break down easily, plug the filter, and then that happens. I don't expect that will happen under normal use as long as you're cautious.
my previous experience with a point voyager and now the clean water wash system has been definitive - that being the clean water wash system outperforms the point voyager by miles. no more yiblets on the top rack, and its soooo much quieter!

 

[gelaundry4ever]

whirlpool clean water wash

Does anybody know if Whirlpool is using the clean water wash?

 

[qsd-dan]

soooo much quieter!

The Point Voyager is damn near silent to me, I can't imagine someone complaining about its noise level or giving a rats patootie being any quieter. Maybe I've been around the vintage stuff way too long...

I see long term problems with the clean wash design, particularly with the electric driven pump. Just something else to die and fix. Also, there's quite a few extra areas/connections to leak vs previous older designs...

But, if it tickles your fancy, have at it

 

[maytaga806]

Those are beautiful Kitchenaids!! Both of them are an excellent choice, but with the older point voyager it’s only worth finding one with low mileage in grade A plus conditions. For me, we had a Maytag Jetclean from 2009 which was the point voyager kind. Never had issues with its cleaning efforts, it cleaned flawlessly. Just really didn’t like the sump design, the food chopper assembly can get very easily clogged. The motor was apparently made by LG I’ve learned?? The control boards for that particular generation of Maytags were so notorious for failures and ours failed twice which is why we got rid of it. The next generation of Maytag dishwashers that came out in 2015 and ended around 2020 was far better than the point voyagers, more superior, a more refined version, much more powerful and much quieter too and we own one of these now, the thinner holes on the wash arms make for a sharper jet stream on the dishes I’ve noticed in comparison to the older point voyager generation. The roof jet arm is so much better than the previous Maytag we had and provides better streams of water from what I’ve seen recording inside the dishwasher upon testing. For the first time in history, all Maytag dishwashers now alternate the spray arms since the new generation came out in 2020. Glad I got the one we did from 2019 that does not do that, has never served a single disappointment cycle after cycle. The filtration in this machine is interesting, has a strainer over the drain and a mesh filter piece over the sump, but what I really don’t like it how the food chopper assembly is not able to be reached by entering the sump, you have the flip the machine upside down and remove the motor to get to it if it ever had to be cleaned. Cleaning Results from this machine are no different than what my portable powerclean gives me, really love it and it’s a highly underrated series.

 

[appnut]

MY Bosch actually cleans better than the GSD1200 Potscrubber. And both the 2006 (Point Voyager) and 2015 Kenmore Elite (KitchenAids) can't hold a candle to my Bosch. Glad to see the glowing results Egress reports with the Clean Water Wasj system but I have serious concerns with points qsd-dan raises. Wouldn't surprise me if I continue to select Bosch.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to appnut

I agree with you. I have the Kenmore version of the Bosch, and it NEVER disappoints.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Thanks for all the good responses.  Enjoyed reading through those.  Dan, it sounds like something might be wrong with your machine.  Surely what you describe can't be normal operation, can it?!

 

If the model with the Clean Water Wash system in my first photo (KDTM354DSS4) is still for sale when I get back to the US, I'll pick that one up for a start, as it's by far the closest to where I live.  It'll be interesting to try the ProScrub jets.  The reviews of this model seem to say that performance is excellent and it's extremely quiet and dries great.  CR rated it very highly.  Unfortunately a lot of reviews complain that it doesn't last long -- the wheels fall off the lower rack, the upper rack sometimes suddenly comes crashing down if the support rails break.  And the filter can tear itself apart, which can lead to two problems: either the machine keeps working (just about) but the spray arm holes get blocked up and the wash performance is poor.  Or the torn filter will jam the pump completely, which causes the motor to overheat and stop working.  The other problem is that the control board sometimes dies completely.  But I'm happy to take a chance on a used machine.  I'd like to try other models too, including the ones mentioned in this thread.  Thanks so much for sharing your experiences and knowledge.

 

Mark

 

[bigalsf]

Mark, I found the instructions for the Kenmore Elite.  I'll email it to you tomorrow.  

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

I wonder what the idea is behind Clean Water Wash? Were all the good names taken that that's why that one is the in,y one left? I'm sure all dishwashers give assurance that they will use clean water...

Something like Point Voyager, I guess the next to last available great name I guess makes more sense, that nothing else competitive by the same brand is really needed...

-- Dave

 

[lakewebsterkid]

appnut

Usually our experiences are the same if not very similar, however, my KA outperforms my Bosch, including with drying. 

 

 

[appnut]

After almost 2.75 years in my kitchen I am still surprised at times. I have a Bosch 800 series model with Crystal Dry & MyWay 3rd rack. I use Finish classic or 3-in-1 rabs for most loads. For exxtreme soil, I'll use a Finish Quantum tab. I've used the Heavy/Pots cycle only 3 times. My typical cycle is auto and crystal dry. For heavier soil I'll add Sanitize rinse. I've figured out it has a variable speed pump. When Sanitize option is selected, pump pressure can end up being extremely intense. First dishwasher whereby mugs or plasticware placed on cup rack above mugs comes totally clean 99% of the time thanks to variable speed. And Crystal Dry, reminds me of KA dishwasher dry from 1960s--practically baked bone dry.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Bob - I was just looking at the Bosch dishwashers online...

I noticed you said you had the 800 series... Although I see several series... 100, 300, 500, etc

I'm not familiar with Bosch at all.
Over to youtube and this guy here says he has several issues with the 800 series and that he got 100s of comments of people with the same problems...I'm guessing you experience none of these? I wonder what's up with this?

 

[appnut]

Mark, I think the guy may be somewhat of a baffoon. Several years DaDoES told me about a new appliance purchase business here in town that he'd noticed online and he recognized the company from a branch near his location. Turns out they are the premier outlet for high-end products. I'd visited the store about 6-7 years ago and visited with one of their salesmen while looking a vent hoods and dishwashers. My partner was with me and when we got in the car he said "I don't know what you talked to that guy all about, but there was something you apparent said to he and he whole demeanor cahnged from he was skeptical of your supposed knowledge to an expression that you really do know what you are talking about and are quite knowledgeable. So when I had to get the new DW in 2021, I called him and told him I finally had to replace my dishwasher. He remeembered me and knew exactly which model I wanted and it as in stock (during pandemic). I got mine installed in 10 days and people all over the internet were having to wait for months if they wanted the model I got.

As for the brackets, mine are at the top attached under the counter top. It's anchored in there. When that guy closed his dishwasher door and it beeped, he was wrongwith what he attributed the beep was for. It's actually the beep you get if you don't close the door fast enough after you push the start button. As far as the two door opening issues, I don't think the counterblance springs in the door are adjusted strong enough to make sure the seal is tight as well as inside tank temperature difference that can cause the door pop open during initial prewash (and that did happen with one of my 2 Kenmore Elites).

As for the rinse aid dispenser, there can be issues with it after about 3 or 4 years, just like you've had with your WP dishwasher.

 

[mark_wpduet]

yea after hearing how much you loved your Bosch it made me wonder...

Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, I guess the rinse aid can be an issue in all of them.... Honestly, that part doesn't bother me in the least because I don't need it... I have a clip fan. I open door, shake racks and let the clip fan blow in the dishwasher until I'm ready to unload it. Besides, I think the Finish Quantum has rinse aid built in anyway.

Question... Are the 100, 300, 500 series good as well or are there models you would steer away from?

Not purposely trying to hijack this thread.

 

[henene4]

All these series should be more or less the same.

BSH (parent company of Bosch) phased out all but one base design.
All have a single inverter on the main board, driving both the wash and drain pump via a switch over relay.

All have the same flow through heater.
The big difference are between the filters - which don't impact performance much as it's just a tiny design difference - and that some markets can get machines without diverter.
The machines without diverter don't have a top spray, only the 2 spray arms, so they are easy to spot. I would generally avoid those.

The higher tier machines usually are quieter, have more cycles and options etc.
There might still be machines with a plastic base tub - those are know as a failure point with leaking where the 2 parts are joined.

Drying technology is another big differentiator.
Some just have static dry, some have AutoOpen style drying and some have CrystalDry. The EU can get the latter 2 combined, not sure about the US.
CrystalDry is just amazing, period.

Racking is different from machine to machine aswell.
Base is the same, most that changes is type of third rack and how much is foldable, plus soft touch points in some machines.

Last thing is that now, there are a few select models with motor driven lower spray arms.
That design is extremely new, so no word on any issues yet.

If I would give any recommendations, CrystalDry is the way to go.

It makes the one big repair all of these will need after 8-15 years a decent bit more involved (pump replacement), but there is just nothing like it drying wise.

 

[appnut]

In the US, the 500 seriess is the only models with auto open air dry. The 800 series and Benchmark series have CrystalDry. The motor driven lower spray arm is called PowerControl wash arm and is a 3 arm design.

 

[combo52]

Point Voyager versus clean, wash KitchenAid dishwasher

Hi Mark, I think these questions might’ve already been answered but all the point voyager dishwashers always run both wash arms at once. No diverter, the other style KitchenAid with the spinning separator is a really sophisticated dishwasher. It’s used on KitchenAid models and even on all Maytag models currently,

Dan posted one of these being repaired and reply number 12 this is an extremely sophisticated dishwasher. There is no other dishwasher made currently or has ever been made that has such a fine filter in it, I have seen them gunk up where people wash cans with labels on them, and there have been some failures , otherwise where you have to replace the part that was shown in video.

No matter how you cut it. It’s one of the worlds most sophisticated dishwashers not even Bosch or Miele has anything as good at filtering water in their dishwasher pump systems.

Unfortunately, no dishwasher brand today has been as reliable as some of the machines of the past , KitchenAid has certainly had their problems as have Miele and Bosch, we turned down about 15 calls a week on Bosch dishwashers because of the difficulty of repairing them and the customers all tell us nobody wants to work on these things.

Quite a few of the people that call with the Bosch dishwashers just end up buying a new KitchenAid or Maytag from us if it’s more than a handful of years old.