Point Voyager versus Clean Water Wash

[Marky_Mark]

Thanks for all the good responses.  Enjoyed reading through those.  Dan, it sounds like something might be wrong with your machine.  Surely what you describe can't be normal operation, can it?!

 

If the model with the Clean Water Wash system in my first photo (KDTM354DSS4) is still for sale when I get back to the US, I'll pick that one up for a start, as it's by far the closest to where I live.  It'll be interesting to try the ProScrub jets.  The reviews of this model seem to say that performance is excellent and it's extremely quiet and dries great.  CR rated it very highly.  Unfortunately a lot of reviews complain that it doesn't last long -- the wheels fall off the lower rack, the upper rack sometimes suddenly comes crashing down if the support rails break.  And the filter can tear itself apart, which can lead to two problems: either the machine keeps working (just about) but the spray arm holes get blocked up and the wash performance is poor.  Or the torn filter will jam the pump completely, which causes the motor to overheat and stop working.  The other problem is that the control board sometimes dies completely.  But I'm happy to take a chance on a used machine.  I'd like to try other models too, including the ones mentioned in this thread.  Thanks so much for sharing your experiences and knowledge.

 

Mark

 

[bigalsf]

Mark, I found the instructions for the Kenmore Elite.  I'll email it to you tomorrow.  

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

I wonder what the idea is behind Clean Water Wash? Were all the good names taken that that's why that one is the in,y one left? I'm sure all dishwashers give assurance that they will use clean water...

Something like Point Voyager, I guess the next to last available great name I guess makes more sense, that nothing else competitive by the same brand is really needed...

-- Dave

 

[lakewebsterkid]

appnut

Usually our experiences are the same if not very similar, however, my KA outperforms my Bosch, including with drying. 

 

 

[appnut]

After almost 2.75 years in my kitchen I am still surprised at times. I have a Bosch 800 series model with Crystal Dry & MyWay 3rd rack. I use Finish classic or 3-in-1 rabs for most loads. For exxtreme soil, I'll use a Finish Quantum tab. I've used the Heavy/Pots cycle only 3 times. My typical cycle is auto and crystal dry. For heavier soil I'll add Sanitize rinse. I've figured out it has a variable speed pump. When Sanitize option is selected, pump pressure can end up being extremely intense. First dishwasher whereby mugs or plasticware placed on cup rack above mugs comes totally clean 99% of the time thanks to variable speed. And Crystal Dry, reminds me of KA dishwasher dry from 1960s--practically baked bone dry.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Bob - I was just looking at the Bosch dishwashers online...

I noticed you said you had the 800 series... Although I see several series... 100, 300, 500, etc

I'm not familiar with Bosch at all.
Over to youtube and this guy here says he has several issues with the 800 series and that he got 100s of comments of people with the same problems...I'm guessing you experience none of these? I wonder what's up with this?

 

[appnut]

Mark, I think the guy may be somewhat of a baffoon. Several years DaDoES told me about a new appliance purchase business here in town that he'd noticed online and he recognized the company from a branch near his location. Turns out they are the premier outlet for high-end products. I'd visited the store about 6-7 years ago and visited with one of their salesmen while looking a vent hoods and dishwashers. My partner was with me and when we got in the car he said "I don't know what you talked to that guy all about, but there was something you apparent said to he and he whole demeanor cahnged from he was skeptical of your supposed knowledge to an expression that you really do know what you are talking about and are quite knowledgeable. So when I had to get the new DW in 2021, I called him and told him I finally had to replace my dishwasher. He remeembered me and knew exactly which model I wanted and it as in stock (during pandemic). I got mine installed in 10 days and people all over the internet were having to wait for months if they wanted the model I got.

As for the brackets, mine are at the top attached under the counter top. It's anchored in there. When that guy closed his dishwasher door and it beeped, he was wrongwith what he attributed the beep was for. It's actually the beep you get if you don't close the door fast enough after you push the start button. As far as the two door opening issues, I don't think the counterblance springs in the door are adjusted strong enough to make sure the seal is tight as well as inside tank temperature difference that can cause the door pop open during initial prewash (and that did happen with one of my 2 Kenmore Elites).

As for the rinse aid dispenser, there can be issues with it after about 3 or 4 years, just like you've had with your WP dishwasher.

 

[mark_wpduet]

yea after hearing how much you loved your Bosch it made me wonder...

Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, I guess the rinse aid can be an issue in all of them.... Honestly, that part doesn't bother me in the least because I don't need it... I have a clip fan. I open door, shake racks and let the clip fan blow in the dishwasher until I'm ready to unload it. Besides, I think the Finish Quantum has rinse aid built in anyway.

Question... Are the 100, 300, 500 series good as well or are there models you would steer away from?

Not purposely trying to hijack this thread.

 

[henene4]

All these series should be more or less the same.

BSH (parent company of Bosch) phased out all but one base design.
All have a single inverter on the main board, driving both the wash and drain pump via a switch over relay.

All have the same flow through heater.
The big difference are between the filters - which don't impact performance much as it's just a tiny design difference - and that some markets can get machines without diverter.
The machines without diverter don't have a top spray, only the 2 spray arms, so they are easy to spot. I would generally avoid those.

The higher tier machines usually are quieter, have more cycles and options etc.
There might still be machines with a plastic base tub - those are know as a failure point with leaking where the 2 parts are joined.

Drying technology is another big differentiator.
Some just have static dry, some have AutoOpen style drying and some have CrystalDry. The EU can get the latter 2 combined, not sure about the US.
CrystalDry is just amazing, period.

Racking is different from machine to machine aswell.
Base is the same, most that changes is type of third rack and how much is foldable, plus soft touch points in some machines.

Last thing is that now, there are a few select models with motor driven lower spray arms.
That design is extremely new, so no word on any issues yet.

If I would give any recommendations, CrystalDry is the way to go.

It makes the one big repair all of these will need after 8-15 years a decent bit more involved (pump replacement), but there is just nothing like it drying wise.

 

[appnut]

In the US, the 500 seriess is the only models with auto open air dry. The 800 series and Benchmark series have CrystalDry. The motor driven lower spray arm is called PowerControl wash arm and is a 3 arm design.

 

[combo52]

Point Voyager versus clean, wash KitchenAid dishwasher

Hi Mark, I think these questions might’ve already been answered but all the point voyager dishwashers always run both wash arms at once. No diverter, the other style KitchenAid with the spinning separator is a really sophisticated dishwasher. It’s used on KitchenAid models and even on all Maytag models currently,

Dan posted one of these being repaired and reply number 12 this is an extremely sophisticated dishwasher. There is no other dishwasher made currently or has ever been made that has such a fine filter in it, I have seen them gunk up where people wash cans with labels on them, and there have been some failures , otherwise where you have to replace the part that was shown in video.

No matter how you cut it. It’s one of the worlds most sophisticated dishwashers not even Bosch or Miele has anything as good at filtering water in their dishwasher pump systems.

Unfortunately, no dishwasher brand today has been as reliable as some of the machines of the past , KitchenAid has certainly had their problems as have Miele and Bosch, we turned down about 15 calls a week on Bosch dishwashers because of the difficulty of repairing them and the customers all tell us nobody wants to work on these things.

Quite a few of the people that call with the Bosch dishwashers just end up buying a new KitchenAid or Maytag from us if it’s more than a handful of years old.

 

[logixx]

Looking at the installation of that dishwasher in the video, it appears crooked and not raised up to the countertop.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Hi guys.  Thanks for all the replies.

 

John, thanks for explaining that.  I will buy an early Point Voyager model and put it through its paces.  It's fun to try different models and see what they're like.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the YouTube guy in reply #24 is having those problems due to the dishwasher not having been installed correctly and the dishwasher's whole cabinet being slightly bent out of shape.

 

Mark

 

[mark_wpduet]

My 2014 point voyager stainless maytag is approaching 10 years old this summer..so I've been kinda looking around because this is about the time that all my past dishwashers failed....9-10 year mark...although my Maytag seems to be perfectly fine and I will use it until any issues come up...

Interesting...that a lot of appliance companies turn down calls for Bosch... that's good to know.

I really have ZERO clue what I'd buy if mine failed today... seriously, NO CLUE.. and that's AFTER looking at different ones online pretty thoroughly...

It's so funny that I would totally buy an LG front load washer....but at the same time I'm skeptical of their dishwashers...not sure why..

and more often than not... the Maytag dishwashers are always out of stock (at least the sites I check)

 

[jamiel]

Whatever you do when the time comes, take your dishes to the store to fit them in. I harp on this, but there's nothing more irritating than having things not fit.

I've got a 10-year old 100 series Bosch in Detroit, it fits Corelle beautifully---but is less happy with thicker crockery. Holds LOTS of Corelle--even bowls nest in beautifully--just love it. Use fairly thick-handled cutlery which fits in the grid standing up nicely. There is a good stair-stepping of the cutlery basket which exposes everything.

Have an 800 series in California--we use Fiesta Ware out here and it's happy with the thicker crockery due to tine placement, but I'm not sold on the 3rd rack for flatware (though haven't tried the thin-handled cutlery in the bottom-rack-silverware-basket, so I might not hate the 3rd rack too much).

TBH notice the cleaning performance isn't much different (though the hard California water makes the dishwasher door look a bit mottled/streaky). The water in California is a little more finicky about needing higher-end detergent, though.