Powder - beats liquid?

[MrX]

Just having a look at Unilever Persil (UK & Ireland) online stain solver.

almost without exception, it suggests Persil Biological Washing powder - i.e. the 'traditional format' universal powder.

Click on any stain and you'll see what I mean.

On a few occasions it will pop up tablets, but I suspect that's only for variety

Seems to prove the suspicion that the liquids and liquitabs aren't really all that good.

http://www.persil.co.uk/stainsolver.aspx

 

[maytagbear]

My experience, and just my

experience says that it depends.

For things like heavy garden soils, powder does work better.

For oil based stains, it has been my experience, that liquids work better.

Plus, there is the fact that liquid goes into solution faster than powder.

I do use powder detergent, but I think a wise home launderER has both.

Again, just what I've seen.

Lawrence/Maytagbear

 

[MrX]

I suspect that it's quite a different story for toploaders as liquid would dissolve much more effectively. Where as in a European front loader, powder is dispensed by spraying it with water in the dispenser drawer, so it's well mixed with water before it even hits the tub at all.

Major difference is that powders can be formulated with oxygen-bleaches and use more complex enzymes as they do not expire / disappear in powder where as they need to be preserved and stabelised in a liquid.

Liquids might come in handy for pretreating, but with TOL powders you don't pretreat anything anyway.

 

[maggie~hamilton]

Very interesting

I have thought about this subject from time to time. My mother's opinion (hardly an expert on homemaking mind you) is that powdered detergent does not dissolve as thoroughly as liquid and that it's harder to rinse out. So she uses liquid and suggested I do as well.

I used to use Gain powder but switched to Gain liquid. I can't really see all that difference in cleaning ability; and the only reason I chose Gain (the white trash choice in laundry detergent) is because I just love its scent.

The only big major discovery I have made of late is with chlorine bleach. I have totally sworn off the stuff in terms of laundry, and my whites have never looked better. There's a thread about that elsewhere.

oh, of course I have also talked about my favorite laundry detergent of all, PRIDE from the Philippines. If it ever hits U.S. shelves I will definitely be switching to powder!

 

[MrX]

Hmm - I would find some of the most difficult to rinse-out detergents over here are liquids!

Unilever Persil Powders rinse out very easily.
P&G's Ariel & Daz are a little more difficult.

Unilever's older Persil LiquiGel was a nightmare, even in a Miele doing 5 high level rinses there would still be suds left!!

Their new Persil S&M liquid is a VAST improvement in terms of rinsing performance.

I also find powders more convenient though as you can easily measure an accurate dose, you can use the machine's delay start i.e. it will automatically dispense the powder when the machine starts from the dispensor drawer, where as with a liquid that's tricky

Same for prewash, with powder you just fill Compartment I and II and the machine dispenses the powder automatically for each part of the wash.

And of course, you can accurately control the dose!

 

[MrX]

TL powders?

I can see how top loaders might not really mix the powder through the water properly though as it might just sit at the bottom of the tub if it hadn't been mixed through.

When I used one in the US, I would always add the detergent to the flowing stream of water as the machine was filling, then start adding clothes as I found if i threw it on top of the load it would cause marks.

Euro machines basically have a 2 compartment drawer, the machine fills by spraying water through this through nozzles which look very much like a shower head.
The powder's mixed, diluted and arrives in the drum already pre-activated.

 

[sudsmaster]

If I recall correctly, a year or two ago somebody posted the results of a European (British?) test. It found that liquids generally did not clean as well as powders, and that some liquids were no better than plain water.

As for dissolving completely, yes, best to use warm to hot water with most powders. Tide Coldwater powder supposedly dissolves just fine in cold water. Haven't been able to find it here, just the liquid, which is extremely sudsy. For the few loads I wash in cold, I use just about any liquid, usually the Sears HE liquid.

Most powders have sodium carbonate which forms a precipitate with hard water, so in that sense yes, the stuff may not rinse out as well as a liquid, which has instead sodium citrate which is less likely to form a precipitate. As far as I know there's no problem putting an oxygen bleach in a liquid, since sodium perborate is relatively stable at room temps. But I might be misinterpreting the "color safe bleach" on some liquid labels as being oxygen bleach.

There's also the report - as yet unsubstantiated - that sodium carbonate and phosphates can cling to fabric fibers and not get rinsed away, leaving a harsh feel to the fabrics. I haven't yet been able to find any references for that report, but empirically I have noticed that items like bath towels washed in a liquid detergent tend to be softer than those washed in a powder.

 

[MrX]

Here's a comparison of ingredients

Unilever Persil - Powder
UK/Ireland - Biological

http://www.unilever.com/PIOTI/EN/p4.asp?selectCountry=IE&language=EN&productid=1502799

 

[MrX]

liquid

Here's Persil Small & Mighty Liquid

http://www.unilever.com/PIOTI/EN/p4.asp?selectCountry=IE&language=EN&productid=1513399

 

[launderess]

In theory liquids are supposed to better suit oil based stains/soils, while powders for clay and "dirt" based soils.

Liquid detergents for the most part are neutral or slightly acidic, and today at least MOL and TOL varities have various enzymes to aid cleaning performance. Powders can be neutral to slighly basic to very alkaline, which tends to make them clean heavy soils better as the high pH level causes textile fibers to swell and therefore release dirt/soils easily. Problem is that laundering certian items too often with too harsh detergent with hard water can leave items feeling scratchy. This is one of the reasons commercial laundries would used sours in the final rinse; to bring down the pH level and remove excess sodium bicarbonate (by product of sodium carbonate), thus making laundry more comfortable to wear/use.

Today's TOL powders such as Tide work great on all soils and probably are more gentle than the heavy baking soda/washing soda laden Arm&Hammer types. But also consider few today work on farms or for that matter get their laundry that soiled as say a generation or so ago. Aside from children who just naturally attract dirt *LOL*, most of us leave for work and come home in items that are quite clean except for the odd stain (from lunch or whatever), and perhaps some body odour/soils. Indeed many of us change clothing today several times, putting almost clean items into the wash. Therefore detergents do not have to cope with washing dirt that resembles farmers overalls during hog boiling season; but rather lightly soiled laundry as described above.

 

[sudsmaster]

Liquid detergents for the most part are neutral or slightly

Sorry, but that didn't sound quite right. So I got out my handy water test strips and found the following liquids:

Detergent pH Total Alkalinity CaCO3

Sears HE >8.4 >240 ppm 250 ppm

Method HE 8.4 >240 ppm 250 ppm

Tide HE >8.4 >240 ppm 250 ppm

Sfwy HE free >8.4 >240 ppm 250 ppm

Wisk HE >8.4 >240 ppm 250 ppm

Ecos 7.2 180 ppm 250 ppm

Frsh Brz 7.2 180 ppm 250 ppm

As you can see, all the major brands are quite alkaline, both in terms of pH and total alkalinity. Ecos and Fresh Breeze were exceptions, with neutral pH and lower total alkalinity. Values of >8.4 read off scale on the test strips, as did values of total alkalinity of >240 ppm. Procedure was to pour a few drops (as little as possible) of the liquid detergent into a coffee cup, fill about 1/2 way with cold tap water, stirred not shaken, and then test.

 

[sudsmaster]

PS-sorry about the formatting of the table. It previewed ok, but the posting wiped out the spacing.

 

[sudsmaster]

This was an interesting test to run. Based on these results, I'd probably use Ecos or Fresh Breeze to launder delicate items such as woolens or stuff with leather trim. Perhaps also items with latex backing, like throw rugs. Because these are regular sudsing detergents, they don't clean all that well in a front loader, since the amount must be drastically reduced to control sudsing. Both these detergents claim to contain natural soap, but I wonder if that's just plant based surfactant. Of the "synthetic" liquids, Method HE was slightly less alkaline, with its test color spot on 8.4 (the ones listed as >8.4 had colors far more intensely red than 8.4 would indicate).

Unfortunately I don't have any test strips for values above 8.4. I probably have some liquid test kits for higher pH values, but anything above pH 8 is alkaline anyway.

 

[sudsmaster]

PS-I don't work on a farm. However I do work in a machine shop and those work clothes can get rather dirty. Also, working in the yard/garden gets those work clothes dirty. And lately I've been clearing out the clutter in the garages and workshop, and all the dust certainly gets clothes quite smudged as well.

Someone whose job is in an office, who lives in an apartment, probably won't get their clothes dirty enough to require a powder. But in most cases I find liquids come up wanting for getting the dirt out.

 

[zanussi_lover]

I use Daz liquid (powders vs liquids debate)

I've been using Daz liquid and i think it removes stains very well, even muddy stains, chocolate, and tomato stains go away very easily with warm wash at 40/50 degrees

i just pour a bit of liquid on the stain and then rub it in, and then let the machine do its thing and voila, no stains and clean clothes I like the bluey whiteness effect you get from daz liquid, it smells good too

i think its just a personal preferance what you prefer to use, never thought tablets cleaned very well for some reason, apart from persil gel tablets/surf tablets.

I have alot of coloured clothes, and i think i'd rather like to use liquid as powder seems quite abrasive on the clothes

 

[mrboilwash]

Liquid detergents for the most part are neutral or slightly

I also read this statement quite a few times and don`t agree with it at all.
True is that powders are generally more alkaline than liquids, but heavy duty liquids like Persil (Henkel) or Ariel still are on the alkaline side greater than PH 7.
The only liquid detergent apart from fabric softeners that I could find on the acidic side is Perwoll liquid, a light duty detergent just for delicates and silk and wool. It`t powdered counterpart is to my surprise slightly alkaline.
If you count fabric softeners, (which are acidic), as liquid detergents your statement makes sense of course.

 

[mrboilwash]

To stay on the subject, I have the impression that powders have a greater spectrum of soils they can handle, but I like to have liquids at hand as well because they seem to be easier on fabrics and they are good for some oily stains and short cycles for example.

Our German consumer magazine always rates powders higher than liquids. That is because powders, even with oxygen bleach are generally better for the enviroment in their opinion.
At removing visible spots like food stains, liquids have become better and better and almost equal with powders.
But powders seem to get better rid of the invisible dirt like dead skin cells and body grease, which causes greying and smelly clothes by and by.

 

[launderess]

Problem with powders, or at least much of the problem steams from those bans on phosphates. It takes several chemicals to equal the cleaning/water softening powers of STPP, hence all that baking soda, washing soda, Zeolites, and god only knows what else clogs up those boxes of powders.

Those heavy canisters of Ecolab commercial detergent in my stash contain mainly STPP,surfactant and washing soda, and am here to tell you that stuff can CLEAN. Even use it to wash the filters from my electronic air cleaner, window screens, air conditioner filters and anything else with heavy dirt, including greasy soils and the results are wonderful. Dirt just lifts off and more importantly stays suspended in the water.

As for carbonate and phosphate buildup, many laundry liquids, especially those sold to clean fine laundry/linens make a big deal that their products do not leave behind salts that can build up and cause damage.

 

[sudsmaster]

It takes several chemicals to equal the cleaning/water soft

Yaaaay. Let's hear it for STPP yet again.

Some might argue that even those multiple chemicals never really do equal STPP in all its complex functions.

Technically speaking, sodium citrate, the major builder ingredient of most laundry liquids, is a salt. And as I've discovered, it can precipitate out (witness the crusty bits rattling around in an old jug of Sears HE liquid). EDTA is probably a better alternative, but I suspect it's quite a bit more costly than sodium citrate. (EDTA=Ethylene diamine tetraacetate, which unlike citric acid doesn't grow on trees).