Hi Stefan
Can you explain your defenition of the difference between "Hybirds" and "Syndets"
Just curious
Can you explain your defenition of the difference between "Hybirds" and "Syndets"
Just curious
Praise soap by Lever Brothers
- Thread starter supersuds
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Stan, a real Syndet is based on man made surfactants only and usually labeled as soap free and neutral in pH.
A Hybrid contains both soap and man made surfactants as well to prevent the formation of soap film or soap scum.
I`m not entirely sure how it can be done but I think some Hybrids even are altered to a neutral pH or at least one that is lower than that of real soap. Others are just soap with a chemical surfactant added to improve rinseability but still high in pH like ordinary soap.[this post was last edited: 8/29/2018-03:48]
A Hybrid contains both soap and man made surfactants as well to prevent the formation of soap film or soap scum.
I`m not entirely sure how it can be done but I think some Hybrids even are altered to a neutral pH or at least one that is lower than that of real soap. Others are just soap with a chemical surfactant added to improve rinseability but still high in pH like ordinary soap.[this post was last edited: 8/29/2018-03:48]
launderess
Well-known member
Being as that may
After an extensive internet search cannot find any mention of what exactly is a "hybrid" soap.
OTOH there are scores of pages on syndet (short for "synthetic detergent") bar, and DOVE along with others fall under that category. This despite their soap content.
At least in the United States the word "soap" is regulated by government when it comes to consumer goods. Dove, Zest and other syndet products are *NOT* labeled soaps because far as US government is concerned they aren't. Thus they call themselves beauty, face, cream, body, and other "bars", but not soap.
https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/productsingredients/products/ucm115449.htm
Early Lever Bros. patents disclose reasons for including soap in their detergent bars. It had to do with giving product certain qualities and production.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2894912A/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3376229A/en
After an extensive internet search cannot find any mention of what exactly is a "hybrid" soap.
OTOH there are scores of pages on syndet (short for "synthetic detergent") bar, and DOVE along with others fall under that category. This despite their soap content.
At least in the United States the word "soap" is regulated by government when it comes to consumer goods. Dove, Zest and other syndet products are *NOT* labeled soaps because far as US government is concerned they aren't. Thus they call themselves beauty, face, cream, body, and other "bars", but not soap.
https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/productsingredients/products/ucm115449.htm
Early Lever Bros. patents disclose reasons for including soap in their detergent bars. It had to do with giving product certain qualities and production.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2894912A/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3376229A/en
After an extensive internet search cannot find any mention..
Gosh, somebody really has to have the last word on everything.
Try the terms "combar" or "combination bar" if "hybrid" doesn`t work out satisfactorily enough for you.
It may be that syndets and soaps are clearly defined by trade laws in the USA and elsewhere around the globe. Apparently this does not prevent insiders of the toiletries` industry to use even more specific technical terms.
But let`s not be too fussy now, sometimes for example the term soap powder in the right context is just as good as the term detergent, don`t you agree ?
https://www.verywellhealth.com/types-of-bar-soaps-1069542
https://books.google.de/books?id=KJ...#v=onepage&q=soap vs syndet vs hybrid&f=false
Gosh, somebody really has to have the last word on everything.
Try the terms "combar" or "combination bar" if "hybrid" doesn`t work out satisfactorily enough for you.
It may be that syndets and soaps are clearly defined by trade laws in the USA and elsewhere around the globe. Apparently this does not prevent insiders of the toiletries` industry to use even more specific technical terms.
But let`s not be too fussy now, sometimes for example the term soap powder in the right context is just as good as the term detergent, don`t you agree ?
https://www.verywellhealth.com/types-of-bar-soaps-1069542
https://books.google.de/books?id=KJ...#v=onepage&q=soap vs syndet vs hybrid&f=false
If they ever plan on a remake of "Whatever happened to Baby Jane" I think that the two of us would be the perfect cast.
Don`t you agree, Dear ?
Don`t you agree, Dear ?
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Yes....
I remeber, I did put my two pennies worth the in on the thread IIRC
You’re right, it does make sense, they keep the brand (and of course some revenue it generates) but don’t have to worry about running the product.
If fact, just today come across (and was very surprised by seeing) Ariel professional washing powder and instead of where it would show P&G professional on the box, it instead had “Blue Sun” professional. - linked the webpage below.
It made me even question was the product genuine?
I have seen the “introducing A+“ on some Ariel pods too. No idea what it is though.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ariel-Acti...=1535667127&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=Ariel&psc=1
I remeber, I did put my two pennies worth the in on the thread IIRC
You’re right, it does make sense, they keep the brand (and of course some revenue it generates) but don’t have to worry about running the product.
If fact, just today come across (and was very surprised by seeing) Ariel professional washing powder and instead of where it would show P&G professional on the box, it instead had “Blue Sun” professional. - linked the webpage below.
It made me even question was the product genuine?
I have seen the “introducing A+“ on some Ariel pods too. No idea what it is though.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ariel-Acti...=1535667127&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=Ariel&psc=1
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
I thought this Praise name was a Christian type soap that cleanses your sins out and us stupid Catholics went to confession and now just could shower and forget it down the drain. I never heard of that soap around here.[this post was last edited: 8/30/2018-20:37]
The thought occurred to me too, lol. But they weren't selling indulgences; it was a real, mass-market item in the 1960s.
Dove Beauty Bar
A "Syndet" is P.H neutral. (If anyone is interested)
Ivory Soap is still actually soap, made with saponified natural fats, no synthetics, retaining its glycerin, and tests out as being above neutral.. As a real soap should.
We Americans often use the word "soap" in reference to dish, and laundry "detergent"
Soap was first, and the word has stuck. Its very commen for someone to say that they need "dish soap" or "laundry soap" when techniicly they mean detergent.
So Stephan, when you said "Hybird" in relation to the topic.. I was thrown off.. its why I asked the question as to what your definition was..thought you may be using it interchangeably.
Thank you Laundress for providing the info. Now I know the word "Hybird" didn't get added by the Scientific community for the chemistry, while I was out fishing LOL
A "Syndet" is P.H neutral. (If anyone is interested)
Ivory Soap is still actually soap, made with saponified natural fats, no synthetics, retaining its glycerin, and tests out as being above neutral.. As a real soap should.
We Americans often use the word "soap" in reference to dish, and laundry "detergent"
Soap was first, and the word has stuck. Its very commen for someone to say that they need "dish soap" or "laundry soap" when techniicly they mean detergent.
So Stephan, when you said "Hybird" in relation to the topic.. I was thrown off.. its why I asked the question as to what your definition was..thought you may be using it interchangeably.
Thank you Laundress for providing the info. Now I know the word "Hybird" didn't get added by the Scientific community for the chemistry, while I was out fishing LOL
Stan pH neutral in the context of cosmetics is a wide ranging term. There`s pH neutral which technically as we know is exactly pH 7, the pH of distilled water.
Then there`s "pH neutral to the skin" which isn`t exactly pH neutral but slightly acidic to match the pH of healthy human skin. It`s usually around pH 5-5,5.
Now let`s not talk about the FDA`s definition of soap like Ivory. It`s clear that soap by definition mustn`t contain any man made surfactants.
Again a Real Syndet by definition of the cosmetics industry, not sure about trade laws, such as a Eucerin or Sebamed bar (you know these niche brands in the USA, too ?) is pH neutral to the skin (acidic) and does not contain any real soap. There might be fatty acids in those products to give them texture but those are not saponified as in hybrids.
Then there`s hybrids or combinationbars (did anyone care to read the links in previous post?) like Dove which are usually just called syndets or detergent bars to make things not too complicated for consumers, but strictly speaking they aren`t because of their soap content. Looks like the term syndet is not as clearly regulated as the term soap is. According to Launderess` link to the patents of Dove it is pH neutral but not exactly "neutral to the skin" at a pH of 6,8-7,2. This doesn`t surprise me because otherwise the soap content wouldn`t stay soap for a long time if Dove were more acidic like a pure syndet would be.
Vintage Zest, another hybrid (1990s vintage is what I know personally) is different again, I can tell this from the ingredients list. It is just soap with a man made sufactant added to prevent the formation of soap scum. I bet my house and farm it is just as alkaline in pH as ordinary soap is (around pH 10 ?). Of course it can`t be called soap by trade laws.
Just think of shaving cream when you think of Zest. There`s usually a surfactant added as well to keep razor blades clean on contact with hard water minerals, but it is still high in pH to soften the beard easily.
Launderess, my reference to Baby Jane was stupid and not clear enough. Non of us makes a good crazy sadistic Jane or a poor pathetic Blanche.
I was only thinking of those two diehard divas. But I very much prefer to be challenged over being surrounded only by people who say what I want to hear.
On the other hand my primary motivation to post here is because it`s fun to do so. No intention to receive a doctor`s degree.
Then there`s "pH neutral to the skin" which isn`t exactly pH neutral but slightly acidic to match the pH of healthy human skin. It`s usually around pH 5-5,5.
Now let`s not talk about the FDA`s definition of soap like Ivory. It`s clear that soap by definition mustn`t contain any man made surfactants.
Again a Real Syndet by definition of the cosmetics industry, not sure about trade laws, such as a Eucerin or Sebamed bar (you know these niche brands in the USA, too ?) is pH neutral to the skin (acidic) and does not contain any real soap. There might be fatty acids in those products to give them texture but those are not saponified as in hybrids.
Then there`s hybrids or combinationbars (did anyone care to read the links in previous post?) like Dove which are usually just called syndets or detergent bars to make things not too complicated for consumers, but strictly speaking they aren`t because of their soap content. Looks like the term syndet is not as clearly regulated as the term soap is. According to Launderess` link to the patents of Dove it is pH neutral but not exactly "neutral to the skin" at a pH of 6,8-7,2. This doesn`t surprise me because otherwise the soap content wouldn`t stay soap for a long time if Dove were more acidic like a pure syndet would be.
Vintage Zest, another hybrid (1990s vintage is what I know personally) is different again, I can tell this from the ingredients list. It is just soap with a man made sufactant added to prevent the formation of soap scum. I bet my house and farm it is just as alkaline in pH as ordinary soap is (around pH 10 ?). Of course it can`t be called soap by trade laws.
Just think of shaving cream when you think of Zest. There`s usually a surfactant added as well to keep razor blades clean on contact with hard water minerals, but it is still high in pH to soften the beard easily.
Launderess, my reference to Baby Jane was stupid and not clear enough. Non of us makes a good crazy sadistic Jane or a poor pathetic Blanche.
I was only thinking of those two diehard divas. But I very much prefer to be challenged over being surrounded only by people who say what I want to hear.
On the other hand my primary motivation to post here is because it`s fun to do so. No intention to receive a doctor`s degree.
"Now I know the word "Hybird" didn't get added by the Scientific community for the chemistry, while I was out fishing LOL."
I don`t think so.
According to the "Scientific" book Skin Cleansing with Synthetic Detergents "The chemically well-defined soaps and non-soap detergent products have now been joined by hybrid products known as combination bars which contain different portions of soap together with synthetic detergents and so on "
While it`s not exactly the most common term saying it would be unscientific is kind of ignorant in my opinion.
The link to the FDA`s definition of the term soap isn`t 100% clear as well in my opinion. Among a lot of other things it says:
"To be regulated as “soap,” those “alkali salts of fatty acids” must be the only material that results in the product’s cleaning action. If the product contains synthetic detergents, it’s a cosmetic, not a soap. You still can use the word “soap” on the label."
You can still use the word soap on the label... Seriously ? What exactly did I miss again ? Besides there`s not a word about what would scientifically define a syndet, they only refer to cosmetics and drugs other than soaps.
Problem is when somebody provides a lot of links to verify their standpoint all the time it would be nice to have the decency to carefully read what the link says before posting. IIRC we`ve just had this in the Sunscreen thread where one of the links recommended what another warned against. No-one likes to get fooled like this even when someone otherwise frequently makes good points.[this post was last edited: 8/31/2018-10:01]
I don`t think so.
According to the "Scientific" book Skin Cleansing with Synthetic Detergents "The chemically well-defined soaps and non-soap detergent products have now been joined by hybrid products known as combination bars which contain different portions of soap together with synthetic detergents and so on "
While it`s not exactly the most common term saying it would be unscientific is kind of ignorant in my opinion.
The link to the FDA`s definition of the term soap isn`t 100% clear as well in my opinion. Among a lot of other things it says:
"To be regulated as “soap,” those “alkali salts of fatty acids” must be the only material that results in the product’s cleaning action. If the product contains synthetic detergents, it’s a cosmetic, not a soap. You still can use the word “soap” on the label."
You can still use the word soap on the label... Seriously ? What exactly did I miss again ? Besides there`s not a word about what would scientifically define a syndet, they only refer to cosmetics and drugs other than soaps.
Problem is when somebody provides a lot of links to verify their standpoint all the time it would be nice to have the decency to carefully read what the link says before posting. IIRC we`ve just had this in the Sunscreen thread where one of the links recommended what another warned against. No-one likes to get fooled like this even when someone otherwise frequently makes good points.[this post was last edited: 8/31/2018-10:01]
Yes
I'm aware of what the P.H of skin and hair is supposed to be.
And yes I did read the link you provided, thank you.
However as a soap maker myself, I didn't read anything in the link, or about soap that I didn't know.
As you've pointed out 7 is still neutral. Normal heathy skin has a amazing way of returning to its acid mantel within a short period of time, even when something more alkaline than 5.5 has been used to clean it.
Please don't kill the messager, but yes we are "serious" Dove, Zest, Careess, Lever, and even Ivory do not use the word "soap" on the labels here in the U.S
Besides the regulations Laundess mentioned..the patents and info she posted, I suspect that the word "soap" in relation to cosmetic use is considered vorbotton. Meaning that there is a negative contagion to "soap" being used on ones face. And frankly real soap is not the best choice for that use.. not because of the P.H factor so much, but due to other factors..
Who the hell is Baby Jane? LOL
I'm aware of what the P.H of skin and hair is supposed to be.
And yes I did read the link you provided, thank you.
However as a soap maker myself, I didn't read anything in the link, or about soap that I didn't know.
As you've pointed out 7 is still neutral. Normal heathy skin has a amazing way of returning to its acid mantel within a short period of time, even when something more alkaline than 5.5 has been used to clean it.
Please don't kill the messager, but yes we are "serious" Dove, Zest, Careess, Lever, and even Ivory do not use the word "soap" on the labels here in the U.S
Besides the regulations Laundess mentioned..the patents and info she posted, I suspect that the word "soap" in relation to cosmetic use is considered vorbotton. Meaning that there is a negative contagion to "soap" being used on ones face. And frankly real soap is not the best choice for that use.. not because of the P.H factor so much, but due to other factors..
Who the hell is Baby Jane? LOL
Who the hell is Baby Jane? LOL
Why Stan, this would be none other than Miss Baby Jane Hudson, of “What Ever Happened To Baby Jane”, the 1962 movie starring Bette Davis as Baby Jane Hudson, and Joan Crawford as her crippled sister, Blanche Hudson.
If you haven’t seen it, you must! It’s a tour de force for these aging actresses, and very camp!
Eddie
Why Stan, this would be none other than Miss Baby Jane Hudson, of “What Ever Happened To Baby Jane”, the 1962 movie starring Bette Davis as Baby Jane Hudson, and Joan Crawford as her crippled sister, Blanche Hudson.
If you haven’t seen it, you must! It’s a tour de force for these aging actresses, and very camp!
Eddie
launderess
Well-known member
Oh, Blanche; Did you know we have rats in the cellar?
launderess
Well-known member
Put a fresh bar of vintage Zest soap in the bath
From wrapper patent listed is: https://patents.google.com/patent/US3070547A/en
Had no idea this soap was from the l950's or early 1960's. Still lathers up a treat and is great in the bath.
From wrapper patent listed is: https://patents.google.com/patent/US3070547A/en
Had no idea this soap was from the l950's or early 1960's. Still lathers up a treat and is great in the bath.
Interesting Zest soap trivia
My father pushed boots in the Navy back in the '60s at NTC in San Diego. The boots were responsible for buying their own bar soap for showering. My father would tell them they could NOT buy any other bar soap other than Zest, and any other soap would be removed. Why? Come to find out Navy inspections of the barracks was very intense and the inspectors would look for anything and everything to whine about and lower the companies cleanliness score. One thing that was found early on was that Zest bar soap would not leave any soap residue in the shower stalls or in the floor pans. Once the navy boots found out why Zest was the only soap allowed, they quickly were "on board" with it. However, the Zest trick was not widely known throughout and other barracks always lost points. My father also made it well known for the guys to keep the Zest trick quiet and his company always racked up the highest points with inspection, which meant rewards later on for the guys.
My father pushed boots in the Navy back in the '60s at NTC in San Diego. The boots were responsible for buying their own bar soap for showering. My father would tell them they could NOT buy any other bar soap other than Zest, and any other soap would be removed. Why? Come to find out Navy inspections of the barracks was very intense and the inspectors would look for anything and everything to whine about and lower the companies cleanliness score. One thing that was found early on was that Zest bar soap would not leave any soap residue in the shower stalls or in the floor pans. Once the navy boots found out why Zest was the only soap allowed, they quickly were "on board" with it. However, the Zest trick was not widely known throughout and other barracks always lost points. My father also made it well known for the guys to keep the Zest trick quiet and his company always racked up the highest points with inspection, which meant rewards later on for the guys.
Hexachlorophene in soap and cosmetics history
Actually a quite interesting read ....
https://cosmeticsandskin.com/efe/hexachlorophene.php
Actually a quite interesting read ....
https://cosmeticsandskin.com/efe/hexachlorophene.php
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