Question about 1.6 gal. toilets

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animasinsulinpu

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Hi, all. I was reading about toilets that said the 1.6 gal toilets are not good for houses that are older than 30 yrs. because pipes in these houses are larger than newer homes and these toilets could cause bad clogs. Is this true? My toilets are 3 gal and all works well. Thanks for your info.
 
In the past couple years I have installed three Eljer 1.6 or 1.3 GPF toilets in earlier homes with 4" drains. None of those have had any issues that I have yet seen with clogs. For low water usage these toilets have amazing flush efficiency. They WELL outperform the 2.5 GPF fixtures they replaced. They all have a long trap design with a jet siphon and I was amazed when I first saw them work.

If you do stay with higher GPF units there are some dual flush retrofit flush valve kits that can reduce consumption for liquid only flushes.
 
Why would a 4" line have a greater tendency to clog than a 3" one?  I would have thought it would be just the opposite.

 

We've had a 1.25 gpf American Standard "Cadet" model for a year and a half and it's been fine, and no clogs, ever.  This house was built in 1927.
 
Our house is 64 years old (1950), and for at least the last 20 years there has been 1.6 gallon toilets in both bathrooms. Never any real problems with the plumbing, just the toilets themselves needing use of the plunger occasionally when someone uses too much paper.
 
I have one of those Eljer 1.6 toilets with the 1 gallon plastic bottle flush that is worthless. It clogs at least once a year and it takes extra water to give a complete flush every time, if not more. Granted it is almost 20 years old and is on the list for this year to be replaced. My hard well water has eaten the inside out and stains cant be scrubbed out. Hate the thought of replacing it because trying to get that stupid wax gasket perfect without leaking is not easy,
 
Why would a 4" line have a greater tendency to clog than

It has to do with the fact that a liquid flowing through a smaller circular area would have more velocity, thus a 3" pipe would be "self scouring" as long as it is now overwhelmed.

There are now new rubber gaskets that can be used instead of the traditional wax ones and also some wax ones have a plastic cone to help line them up with the flange.
 
Tim, Eljer must have changed something in the past 20 years, the new models I installed all flush with impressive performance, I've never double flushed once!

The wax ring is indeed an old antiquated system, but unless the toilet was unstable I have never had one leak. I have always bought the Oatey No-seep rings though, these are the ones with the plastic funnel that directs the water away from the seal. Be sure to shim the toilet to eliminate any rocking and NEVER caulk the fixture to the floor as that obscures any possible leakage!
 
Some of the Caroma Dual Flush models of this capacity I've used are HORRENDOUS. Firstly, you push the flush button and expect the toilet to flush itself. WRONG. YOU have to hold the button to get the flush to work, otherwise, it will not flush itself. 

 

I personally prefer the older Dual-Flush models that keep flushing until they reach the pre-programmed "stop" level or run out of water. The older models here are also 3 gallon, and I've observed the half-flush on these. In reality, they are about a ¾ flush, not ½, due to the position of the openable box that determines the type of flush. 

 

Our current toilets are Full-Flush 3 Gallon models by Armitage-Shanks (1980's style). One uses a counterweight to control flush, the other (used to) use a suction-disk. The latter one broke, so its now easier to control your flushing to suit. Half flush is enough for everything, but I always use full for those as it ensures the waste is actually removed from the house's pipes, not just pushed out of site to clog the drain as more accumulates (I don't know if there is any truth to that theory). 
 
"NEVER caulk the fixture to the floor as that obscures any possible leakage!"

You can and should caulk toilets to the floor. A 1-2" gap in the caulk behind the toilet is all you need to expose water leaks.
 
Meh ...

Nothing compares to the good ol' "flushometer" toilets you'll still find (thank God) in New York City prewar apartments:

nycwriter++2-11-2014-03-18-49.jpg
 
I agree with Roger. It's one of the few things where older isn't better in many or most cases. Several months ago we put in two Toto Drake toilets (air assisted flush), the plumber's helpers have been retired. A 3" trap makes all the difference.
 
My 20 year old Eljer is essentially an old style water hog model. It saves water by only filling what looks like a 1 gallon plastic jug in the center of the tank and it lets just that amount of water do the flushing. Yes, the first water savers were far from good performers. Neighbors had the same model as mine and they replaced it last year with a new Kohler that works wonderful.
 
My sister has an Eljer toilet that was installed when they renovated their house back in '94, and it has to be the worst one I've ever seen. I had worked at a plumbing distributor that sold Eljer, so I knew how bad they were. I tried to talk them out of it, but they chose Eljer bath fixtures anyway. They have replaced the sink, as the enamel popped off the cast iron in several spots (also a problem I was aware of, and warned them of), but the toilet is still there. I can't think of any time I've been there that it hasn't clogged.

The guest/party house has Kohler fixtures that were installed when it was built in '97, and the toilet in there works great.

Eljer became part of American-Standard several years ago, and has improved a lot since.
 
Tim....

Your hard water shouldn't have had any ability to eat through the porcelain finish of the bowl, causing stains. That rough cruddy looking finish you are seeing is actually water deposits.

I moved into a house with extremely hard well water, and the toilet bowl looked like there was no porcelain at all left because it had ssuch a build up of ugly water deposits. But I fixed it.

Clean the toilet thoroughly with bleach, flush it a time or 2, put on rubber gloves, and get yourself a pumice stone. They sell bars of pumice stone scrubbers in the cleaning section of walmart and similar stores. Depp out some of the water, to make scrubbing easier, keep the stone wet, and scrub for all you are worth. Before you know it, all the deposits will be gone, and you will be left with smooth flawless porcelain again.
 
My last 2 (rented) lowflows have worked well. I've seen them in friends' houses that won't suck down a kleenex.

After trying several with negligible results I got a bowl cleaner called "The Works". And it did, on rented toilets with heinous mineral buildup. It's not overpriced either.
 
When we bought this house in 98, there was an Eljier squared-bowl design, low-flush toilet that I removed within six months and chucked into a dumpster.  I went to a building recycle store at the time and bought an American Standard big-water flush model.  I remodeled the master bath the second year we lived here and the plumber rebuilt and re-installed the Am Std toilet that was previously there.  That worked perfectly until a rather rattling thunderstorm a few years later caused a small glass box to wiggle off of a shelf and crack the rim of the bowl.  I went to (now) Habitat and bought a Mansfield big-water toilet that I rebuilt and installed.

 

This last summer & fall, we remodeled the main bathroom and I bought two new toilets, both Kohler 1.28-1.6 gal. models.  I have to say my bias for big-water flushing has been eliminated.  These things are amazing.  We are about 80 feet from the main line at the street but so far, we've had no trouble at all.  I'm sure it helps that I have plenty of big-water washing machines and dishwashers to flush the line, but those new toilets are impressive.
 
All this talk about toilets, etc. reminded me of a home reno episode on a TV show called 'Leave it to Brian' which airs on HGTV. The home owner was complaining that they could not use the toilet in the master bedroom because it was clogged. Brian removed the toilet, ran a snake down the pipe and literally took a dead snake out of the pipe! It was in a stage of decay so had been there for some time. That makes me think twice every time I sit down on a toilet! LOL

Gary
 
Yay for Flushometers!

I have sloan valves on my 20's toilets too. Love 'em!

We have a neighbor who installed a Toto toilet, not only were parts hard to find, but it caused noise throughout the building plumbing when the flapper went (and it wasn't obvious at the toilet itself).
 
"We have a neighbor who installed a Toto toilet, not only were parts hard to find"

They make a lot of different 1.6 and 1.28 GPF models, a few can be configured to either with a ballcock and flapper change. But if you read the Amazon reviews, they're known for using readily available parts. We know the Drake does from first-hand experience. As for noise it's the single quietest toilet of any type I've ever used, and the main reason (aside from the air assist and 3" trap) we got two of them.
 
The problem was it was causing water hammer in the cold water supply and they weren't aware it was coming from their toilet.

I don't know how old it was (might not have been low flow, water in Chicago is cheap), but I know others who have had parts issues as well.
 
The toilet I bought for my basement bath is a Kohler wall-hung model, and I bought a Sloan flush valve for it. Will be so glad when it gets installed; hopefully by end of May. Waiting to get electrical and walls finished first.
 
Wall Hung Toilets

Tom, do you have the mounting kit (aka "carrier") for your wall-hung unit yet?  We're in the midst of a remodel here and the wall-hung toilet will be on an exterior wall.  Space behind it is an issue, and the contractor is having a hard time finding a mounting kit that will work.  As a result, rough-in for sanitary connections has stalled.

 

Carriers don't come cheap, and it seems they aren't included with wall-mount toilets so must be purchased separately.  There's very little information about this on line.  Both the guy performing the work and the owner of the construction company have searched on line and couldn't find anything specific.

 

Wall-hung toilets in residential applications are still quite uncommon, and in many instances, the required 2"x6" studs are not in place.  In my case, they're going to fir out the wall with 2"x6" studs to accommodate the toilet.

 

This afternoon the guy took the Zurn carrier I bought on line with him to a plumbing supply house, prepared to explain the situation and find out what's available.  He thinks he's found something else made by Zurn but wants to be sure.  By the time we're through, the installed toilet could end up costing me around $1K.  I wasn't planning on that, so if you haven't researched carriers yet, you might want to get a jump on things.

 

I still think that it will prove well worth the expense.  I can make the toilet any height I want, and for Dave it's best if it's slightly higher than ADA specs.  The ease of cleaning underneath it goes without saying.  The choice of height is a secondary benefit that in our case we will use to our advantage.
 
I did a remodel for a some very nice people a couple of years ago and they chose Toto wall mount toilets. I'm not sure of the model number but there was no problem getting all the requisite bits. So far they've been quite happy with the toilets, I still have regular contact with them and would likely hear if they were not happy.

 

I was surprised to see the comment above about Toto parts being hard to find; in my experience contractors love them because they flush well, are easy to get and homeowners have few complaints. However, the plumbing supply world is pretty wonky and availability of stuff is primarily determined by what major suppliers (like Ferguson) want to stock. Kohler is mostly easy to get but occasionally you'll find something of theirs that is special order and takes awhile. I don't even want to discuss trying to get some of the not so popular European brands as they can take a lot of lead time.

 

Regarding installation of low-flow toilets in old houses, here in California you don't have a choice if you're doing it as part of a remodel: state law requires only low-flow for replacement if part of new construction, and renovating a bathroom during a remodel qualifies. If you just go buy something and have a plumber install it then nobody knows.
 
Reply #20

Yes it does smell, no worse than bleach. Plain old Comet and a brush cleans fine once the buildup is gone. I don't need The Works more than a couple times a year when the calcium comes back.
 
Wall-hung toilet sag ...

One of the problems with wall-hung toilets is that over time they will sag. From one of my colleagues overseas who did a bathroom reno:

"After talking with plumbers here in the U.K. and bathroom fitters who install wall-hung all over the UK, they will not guarantee any work where the metal frame that holds the wall-hung toilet is fixed to a wooden framed wall. They say that unless these metal frames are fixed into either concrete walls or brick walls, there WILL be some give over time."
 

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