Question about suds saver and how it worked

[passatdoc]

I grew up in a house built in the 1930s, so I presume the original owners of the home (we were owner #2) had wringer washers. There was a laundry sink at one end of the laundry room, and the washer exhaust hose was clamped to the sink. Of course, given the age of the house, there was no drain pipe built into the wall, as far as I recall, and I definitely remember seeing used water from the washer empty into the sink.

Question about suds saver feature, which we never had. I understand the concept, that the hot sudsy water from the wash cycle would be pumped/drained into the sink, and then sucked back into the washer for the second wash cycle. However, what then happened to the rinse water from the first wash cycle?? Wouldn't that dilute or cool down the saved hot sudsy water in the sink? I could see having a dual exhaust hose system, with one hose for wash water only and a second hose for rinse water only, but then you'd need either a divided laundry sink (one half for wash water, one half for rinse water) or else an arrangement whereby hot, used wash water would sit in the sink, waiting for the next load of wash, and then rinse water would be ejected into a drain pipe in the wall (which our laundry room lacked, I remember seeing the used water pump into the sink, which was a large single sink, not a double sink with a partition).

I am missing something here?

 

[wayupnorth]

Suds savers

Yes, you would need 2 ways for the wash and rinse water to go. Those with just one tub could retrofit a sort of standpipe over the drain to hold the wash water in the tub and drain the rinse down the middle tube into the drain. I vaguely remember Sears selling this as an option on their laundry sinks in a real old catalog.

 

[limitededition]

laundry sinks

Those laundry sinks can still be purchased, I have one from Sears around 1956 and Sears also sold them again before the Catalog went out. They can still be ordered on line and at the Home Depot the sinks are basically the same Metal cabinet with storage underneath, the tubs held about 21 gallons and with thestand pipe installed it allowed the excess water to go down the stand pipe and also hold the rinse hose so as to not dilute the wash water. This allowed the heavier soils to settle to the bottom of the tub and as the long hose was about an inch off of the bottom of the tub it did not allow the heavy soil to return to the washer for the next load.

 

[polkanut]

The circa 1922 house I grew up in has a concrete double tub laundry sink and my Mom had/has suds-saver machines.  She uses the half closest to the washer for saving the wash water, and the other hose is a bit longer to reach over to the other half of the sink for the rinse water discharge.

 

[arbilab]

How does the machine suck the saved suds back into the tub? I know how Easy Spindrier did it, didn't involve sucking, just moving the hose. But once the suds are in the sink how do they get back to the washer?

 

[neptunebob]

I believe it used the same pump as was used to drain the water, that is in Kenmore/Whirlpool models.  On the models equipped there was a setting on the knob called "Suds" There is a solenoid valve to switch between the 2 hoses.  I believe the valve moved to the pump's intake, sucking up the water.  I don't know if the pump would work if you took the hose out of the water and it lost its "prime" but most of the time people left the hose in and it pumped back just fine.  Then the timer would proceed into the normal wash cycle. 

 

[petek]

We had the same cement twin tub laundry sinks as well. I don't think the washers drain/intake hose reached quite to the bototm of the sink, it always left about 2 or 3 inches of water when refilling , maybe on purpose since the dirt would have settled and you didn't want it having that sucked back up into the washer for another load.

 

[arbilab]

I know SS was an optional festure on many machines but I never saw one except the manual twintub method.

 

[ingliscanada]

Suds Return

I believe there is a little diaphram that shoots some air out the suds hose to prime and create a siphon, assisted by the pump, to cycle the suds back into the tub. On my family's old Inglis (WP), when the suds cycle was selected, I remember seeing bubbles coming from the bottom of the hose just before the wash water started re-entering the washer.

Different makes have their type of function on the suds-return cycle. On all perforated tubs, I believe, the machine will kick into the agitation cycle while the suds enter the tub from the bottom, meeting with the oscillating agitator. I know that at least WP and Maytag worked that way. On some solid tubs, it worked like the fill cycle, where the suds would come out of a flume similar to the fill flume via a small pump, while the machine was motionless (eg Frigidaire). The solid-tub Easys filled while agitating.

I don't know how every make did it; can someone give more examples? Like Speed Queen or Franklin?

Gary

 

[passatdoc]

The divided sink--or the standpipe alternative--would definitely make sense, and might explain why our laundry sink was not divided. The house was built in the mid-1930s, so the first owners likely used a wringer washer. If they did a "manual" suds saver, as many wringer users used to do, most likely they would have drained it into a laundry tub on the floor and then must have used the laundry sink for draining rinse water. I don't think the sink was large enough to have accommodated a large pail or tub (large enough to hold the wash water from a wringer), which would be another option: drain used hot sudsy water into the pail/rub, drain rinse water into the sink around the pail/tub.

I made a mistake in my first post: we were the THIRD owners of the house when we moved in in 1961. The people we bought it from were empty nesters with all their kids in college, I think either they downsized or maybe moved due to a job transfer, but as a five year old child I remember touring the house with my mother and there were no children present (not even big teenagers or college-aged students). I think it was the walk-through because I do remember the realtor introducing us across the fence to the next door neighbors who had kids about our age.

Anyway, I don't know for certain whether the laundry room sink was original, or whether the second owners installed it post-War. The laundry room had the original cabinets that matched what was in the kitchen---but my mother very quickly did a full remodel of the kitchen. Whereas nothing was altered or upgraded in the laundry room. The sink was wall-mounted or freestanding, it was not built in to any cabinetry. To the right of the sink stood the washer and dryer, and above them hung a pair of wall mounted cabinets that matched the cabinetry on the other side of the room (a solid wall of built in cabinets and drawers, lots of storage). I'm not positive if the sink was original though.

 

[mickeyd]

"If they did a "manual" suds saver, as many wrin

Hi Jim,

 

This is new to me. What have you seen, observed, or heard? My experience has been that if rinse tubs or sinks were lacking, you would wash the three or so loads, drain the washer, and refill to rinse, one or more times. Everything being regional, your method is totally novel to me and very interesting.

[this post was last edited: 3/7/2012-12:13]

 

[whirlpolf]

that old 80 series Kenmore DD

that I own seems to feature a hidden suds saver. It is a regular Shredmore (NOT "shred" as I have found) with a Dual Action Agitator, black and golden backsplash and some wannabe wood decoration foil glued to it.
Between the first cycle (regulars/cotton) to the last one (delicates/wool), there is the OFF section.
But it looks like this: OFF, then some 2-3 timer steps with no indication at all, then OFF again.
This looked odd to me and I tried to get these mysterious blank minutes working. They did! The machine went on in wash mode (not the other direction of the motor which would be spin & drain), but it got working with no water at all. (All other cycles go via the level switch, thus waiting for the tub to be full).

I figured that this must be some recirculation thing, I tried to drain it into some tank (a garden watering tank that is, we don't have laundry sinks here, at least not of such a large volume).
Et voilà! Provided the drain hose end is underwater in the full tank, the machine would suck back its contents to the wash basket. I quickly learned to keep the lid closed as the water touching the swinging wash fins, it would easily be splashed all the way up to walls and ceiling. Later, when the fins were covered, watching was possible again. Once I pulled the suction hose end out and above water level in the tank, I had to reprime the pump again by doing some quick drain seconds, then turning to "secret refill" again.

This machine does not have any visible indication of a suds saver, nor does it feature some diverter valves or double hoses. Yet I was glad to have found out. I reckon a real suds saver would let you choose which cycle water to save and which to suck back automatically, but this is just a vague guess.

PS: That slurping sound along with the hefty splish-splash is just unique! Love it.

 

[mickeyd]

HI Joe, the exact same thing happened to me, only in a diffe

See for yourself. We're quoting each other. Excuse the slow, funny voice, surprised on an Early Saturday morning. Here it is with all the splashing,

 

[DirectDriveDave]

I still love that classic video!

Anyway, I only found this out too about our Whirlpool DD a couple of months ago.

I believe it was BrianL who had that thread about the DD he managed to find (which is very close to ours). Either he or someone else asked about that asterisk in the OFF section of the time. When it was told that it was for suds return, I was shocked realizing that our machine actually had this option all along. I guess you can still learn something new on a machine you have had for 21 years. heh.

 

[whirlpolf]

Goodness, Michael /Mickey: Exactly!

Sounds like you are in my wash cellar! Exactly THIS sound!
Besides: My Kenmore looks pretty much like the one one the right side of your turquoise agitator one.
(I can recognize the McGuyver woodgrain stuff backspash).

This is "shuckah-shuckah" all along splashing the whole room, then "womble-womble /rumble-rumble" (when filled). Oh how I love a good old drenched T-shirt washday ;-) *spring time is coming!*
Thanks for posting, this video is what I meant (nail on the head vid).
Need these goggles, quick! Pass them! *gg* ;-D
Kudos!
Joe

 

[brianl]

Hey Dave, it was me who found the DD WP pair. I do like that I could perform a suds return, be it a manual one. I don't mind much though as that is half the fun.

 

[kenmoreguy64]

Kenmores and the suds saver...and machines that will return

Sears did indeed offer a special hose configuration for people wishing to use a suds saver operation with a single well sink.

My home from 1967 through 1977 was built in 1967, with a single well utility sink next to the washer. All of the houses in our neighborhood from this era were equipped this way. Many if not most of the neighbors had suds model washers. In the two houses across the street were a 1963 Kenmore 70 in one, and a 1962 Kenmore Lady K/800 in the other. Both had Kenmore's drain hose adaptors for single sinks. The machine operates the same as a double sink installation, except the rinse water hose has an adaptation in which the end of the hose is a metal standpipe which fits via a rubber gromment in the end directly into the sink's drain, which acts as a stopper. This plugs the sink to hold the wash water which comes out of one discharge/recharge hose as always in a suds model.

The rinse water however is pumped through the rinse hose into this makeshift standpipe, and is drained through it, right through the holding wash water, directly into the sink's drain. The standpipe in the rinse hose has vents/emergency drains at the top which prevent accidental over-filling of the sink as the excess water drains into these holes and down the center of the standpipe.

To reclaim the wash water, at least for Kenmores and Whirlpools, some machines have a suds section at the beginning of the pre-soak or normal wash cycle, while others have the suds return isolated between two off sections. Certain non-suds models will operate in the suds cycle, others do not.

As to some WP-built machines having a reverse pumping & agitate mode, this is very common in DD washers and can be found on earlier models as is stated above, in the large OFF between Pre-Wash and Normal/Cotton Sturdy. Others have a little horseshoe printed on the console in the Heavy Duty cycle or similar in which a "dry agitate" is allowed, which turns off the circuit to the mixing valve and pressure switch, and simply activates agitation in one speed or another. I believe that in all or nearly all DD washers, the pump in agitate mode is operating backwards, which then allows it to become a "pump in" device vs. a pump out. This will duplicate the art of suds return, though the machine does not have the ability to separate wash/rinse water storage, etc.

This same ability is present in CERTAIN belt-drive machines as well. Many have dry agitate portions toward the end of the Normal wash cycle which can be used to return water to the machine, but not all. This however can ONLY be done with machines using the original style 2-port pump or the 4-port. With either pump, the only way that the machine will pump-in water is if there is a direct pump to cabinet drain hose. Machines with self-cleaning lint filters in line between the pump and the drain will NOT return wash water because the reverse function of the pump is already utilized to recirculate water during agitation through the filter. This becomes a closed system in agitate which deactivates access from the drain hose.

Also, for the literal millions of belt-drives built in the 1970s and 1980s which used the newer design 2 and 3-port pumps (these have the auxiliary triangular shaped 'compartment' on the side of the pump housing) -- these will never return water into the machine as they are not capable of reversing water flow -- water flows through them in one direction only and the flapper inside, which reverses flow in the old pumps, simply opens or blocks water flow like shutting or opening a big door. Suds versions of ALL these models always made use of the older style pumps.

Thus, to return water into a belt-drive that is not properly equipped as a suds-saver, you need a simple drain system AND the old-style pump, both.

Gordon

 

[passatdoc]

@mickeyd

The only "old fashioned" thing about our laundry set up in the 1930s house was that the washer exhaust hose emptied into the large, single laundry sink. There was no drain pipe in the wall directly behind the washer. Either mom's 1958 GE Filter Flo did not have suds saver, or at least she never used.

 

I never owned or operated a wringer. The only time I saw one in operation was a wringer unit at our tennis club as a child (to wash towels) and one in my grandparents' garage (in disuse, no longer the daily driver, but they never bothered to donate it or have it hauled away).

 

I have patients who grew up on a farm in Iowa without electricity, but they had a gasoline powered wringer washer. Evidently they heated up a large quantity of hot water, poured it in the washer, and washed the whites and linens. They then drained the wash water to a large laundry tub on the floor/ground. They would do a rinse with clean cold water, drain it, and run those clothes through the wringer before hanging them on a line. The used wash water in the tub would then be added back to the washer for the second load, sometimes with some additional heated water if it was getting tepid. Basically the wash temp dropped with each load, so whites and linens were washed first, then they moved on to colors. According to the patients, there was a lever they would pull to activate the gravity drain. This being a gasoline fired unit, there was no pump, only gravity drain. However, with the alternative being to wash by hand, they felt they were on easy street.

 

[mickeyd]

Thanks, Jim

So I imagine they used a bucket to return the sudsy water to the Maytag. Interesting. I'm sure others have done it as well.

 

If you really like washers and washing, you might want to find a good, working, conventional washer, as they're properly called.. When my friend Dennis comes by again with his HD flix maker, I'm dying to show Underflow Rinsing in the 66 Visimatic, which goes to your point about rinsing in a wringer washer, still a rare practice. I've modified the machine to have a water inlet system, and with the drain open on slow speed, lint and other unwanted collectibles get sucked under the agitator and down the drain.

 

Jim, although I don't do it all the time, I genuinely enjoy doing laundry in a conventional washer, and hope to show it in detail in the coming months. It is easier than people imagine and tons o' fun.