Question about Washer/Dryer from Newbie

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NYCWriter

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Hello, all.

I'm brand-new -- referred to you guys from my friends at Vacuumland. I'll repost what I posted there about a new washer/dryer combo:

OK, after following everyone's considered advice on my recent vacuum purchase (Aerus Guardian Platinum, which I love), I'm soliciting advice for my next major purchase: a washer and dryer set or washer/dryer combo unit.

This one might be more appropriate for the Europeans, but Americans feel free to chime in.

Living in an apartment in Manhattan, I don't have a laundry room, so I'm looking for a model that would fit under my kitchen counter. I actually have more than enough room (although serious alterations would be necessary) to either install an all-in-one unit or a separate matching set.

Yes, I'm aware of the drawbacks of these all-in-one units ... up to five hours of total wash/dry time per load, small loads, etc., but as an apartment dweller who has to schlep his laundry down five flights (no elevator) to a communal basement laundry where only four washers and four dryers are shared in a 60-unit building, ANYTHING is better than nothing.

My limitations:

-- Despite the fact that I own this apartment, I'm technically not allowed to install my own washer, so whatever unit(s) I do install will have to be over-the-top reliable and as quiet as possible so as not to disturb the downstairs neighbors (a solid two-foot brick wall separates my kitchen from the next-door neighbor's kitchen, so I don't think sound would be an issue there -- gotta love these 1920s-era masonry buiildings!)

-- The dryer must be ventless (yes, I understand the inherent limitations here, but again, I'm not even allowed to bring this unit into my apartment, much less punch a hole in the exterior wall of the building ... and venting out of a window is strictly against the New York City fire code).

-- I've been considering the Miele W3039i washer and matching Miele T8003 condenser dryer. Any opinions on these models?

-- Cost is not an object.

Thanks guys!
 
Hello From Manhattan

If cost is no object, then go with Miele. They are the most reliable brand and service is easily enough found here in the City. You do realize that although the 3XXX series washing machines run on 120v, you will need 120v/208v outlet (208v-240v) electrical service. If you have the proper service and outlet fine. If you have the proper electrical service but not plug, that is also easy enough fixed. If your apartment does not have the proper electrical service, then you are out of luck unless your building agrees to allow the proper wiring to be installed.

Have had a Miele washer for years and love it, but used a standard 120v older Whirlpool portable dryer. Recently acquired a new European set with a condenser dryer and while the washer is great, dryer leaves much to be desired thus far.

Many friends and so forth have had condenser dryers here in the City (Asko, Miele, etc...), and most to a one could not stand the things. For years I never understood why, but once one got one reasons became clear.

Considering ConEd's ever increasing dear rates, if there is anyway you can swing a vented dryer, I'd look there first. During warmer times of the year it may possibly take hours to dry an average wash load in a condenser dryer. Especially if the weather is anything like we just had this summer.

Long story short in order for condenser dryers to really work properly the ambient air surrounding unit needs to be much cooler and dryer than inside the drum. New York City with it's hot and often humid Summer weather (and lately parts of Spring and Fall) presents problems. IMHO the main and distinct advantage condenser dryers have over vented is just that, lack of venting. This is perfect if you are trying to keep your laundry units on the down low. See my posts elsewhere in the forum on that matter and others relating to this topic.

Miele should now or shortly have the next generation of the 3XXX series in local shops or in their Manhattan showroom. Not sure what or if there are any differences but remember seeing something about the "3037 or some such number on MieleUSA's website.

In general Miele washing machines are quiet, except usually for the final spin. There often things can get a bit loud. Rather like a jet engine revving up for takeoff. The other worry would be vibrations.

All front loaders are happiest on solid flooring such as concrete. If your floors are wood, tile or some such and or the subflooring is not strongly reinforced vibrations from the washer will not only be enhanced, but travel through the floor to other areas of your kitchen/apartment and perhaps even down to persons living on the other side of the unit (if any) or below (again if any). If your building is of a modern vintage then shouldn't worry. However if you are living in an older building, especially a townhouse or brownstone type, then things could get interesting.

Personally if you have the required 208v-240v service you might wish to check out Craigslist or even eBay for used Miele 1900 series washer and dryer sets. Last time one looked there were several on CL going very cheaply. Build quality wise the 1900's were the last of the "built like a tank" Miele washers. The new 3XXX series are excellent machines, don't get me wrong, but the older ones are better IMHO. For one thing they often gave more user control than newer, and they used a bit more water.
 
Miele - Immer Besser,,

Hi Matt, given what you have stated so far Miele would be the way to go, it appears to fits your criteria, I would say a vented dryer if you can but their condensers would be fine, the other criteria would be to get the fastest spin possible so cutting down on the moisture would lead to quicker dry times, but looking at Miele USA website the fastest spin is 1300rpm wheras in Europe it would be 1600rpm...

The temperature settings are slightly lower with the US model but 70C / 158F max will be fine with a good quality biological powder, (unless you are washing a load of white tablecloths and napkins regularly)

The other issue is "Do you want to see it wash" ? in which case the W3037 Washing Machine with matching T8023c Tumble Dryer will be great or the integrated model with door panels, being the W3039i washer and T8019ci dryer.This may be ideal if you wish to "Hide" them from inspection because you could fit decor panels to match you kitchen units. Dissapointingly they dont appear to do the Stainless Steel finish with a condenser dryer!!

Let us know how you get on!!

chestermikeuk++9-24-2013-07-46-0.jpg
 
stacked Miele pair, Upper East Side

I have a relative in Manhattan in a co-op (for overseas readers, a co-op is unique to New York City and it means an apartment that you own*, not rent, but you are restricted in what you can do based on the Board of Directors' rules for the building).

The kitchens already had 208V service in order to allow electric ovens and cooktops. They also have gas lines for those who want gas cooktops/ranges/ovens. This is a post-WW2 "white stone" building on the Upper East Side.

In this instance, there was a double closet (two large sliding doors) next to the kitchen. So the 1/3 of the closet nearest the kitchen was converted to laundry with a stacked pair of Mieles. Sorry I don't know the model numbers. Since the sliding doors were retained, the door slides to hide the area, therefore a panel-style machine (to blend into a kitchen) was not needed. Running a water line and electricity from kitchen to adjacent closet was a minor project.

The machines use that dual Miele plug system. Not sure if both machines can be operated at once, but I think they can because the washer is (I think) 110V. Launderess would know for sure. I have used the machines in fall, winter, and spring without any prolonged drying times, but have never been in the apt in summer.

*to be more specific, in a co-op you are joining a real estate partnership with the other owners, and their Board of Directors can exclude any potential buyer for any reason. Not enough money, wrong racial or ethnic group, wrong source of income (there are buildings that don't want people in show business or people living on trust funds who don't work), etc. You have to appear before the Board, without an attorney or realtor for help, and the questioning can be brutal. You have to show them years of financial records: they want to know about your income, your debt, your investments, and so forth. The main concern is whether you can afford the monthly maintenance fees (utilities, building upkeep, lobby employees, property taxes) without financial strain---let alone actually pay for the apartment. You cannot close the deal without Board approval. NYC also has "condominium" buildings in which you simply buy the apartment and pay maintenance fees (gas, water, electric, building upkeep) without having to receive approval to buy from a board.
 
Co-op Multi Housing While Common in NYC

And elsewhere in NYS are not just limited to this area.

With Co-op buildings at least in New York you do not "own" anything real estate or otherwise. What do have are shares in the "corporation" and a lease to the apartment.

Co-op boards in New York City in particular some areas of Manhattan have been known and or accused of being "Neo Nazi" (pardon if term causes offence) and little persons gone mad with power. You find most of the worst restrictive behavior in the better areas of Manhattan historically (Upper East Side, Fifth Avenue, Park Avenue, Sutton Place, etc...) On the other hand the Upper West Side and Central Park West are considered more liberal. This is why you see many performing artists, film stars, actors, etc... living on the West Side. Madonna, Barbra Streisand, and a host of others were turned down flat when they tried to purchase into UES buildings.

There has also been much push back lately over the screening process to purchase into a co-op building, especially the more restrictive buildings. You are talking about assembling a dossier regarding every thing personal, professional, social, financial, educational, and so forth of every person (yes, often including the children and family dog) that wants "in". Where you went to school, which college, who are your friends, what is your income, where does it come from, how is it made, who were your parents, what is *that* name, who are your references, and so forth are all questions. Indeed you can count on being asked almost anything that Is not forbidden by federal, local or state laws.

Then there are the interviews, and yes again this includes the children and often the family dog.

After all this all you can do is sit and wait, if the board turns you down there is no recourse and they do not legally have to tell you anything.

All this has lead to the recent condo boom in NYC. Indeed in the past ten or so years most new construction has been for condos, not co-ops because NYC residents and or those who wish to in good numbers didn't want to play that game. High net worth persons in particular were leery of divulging their finances including investment strategies to a bunch of strangers.

However the strict co-ops had the last laugh. During the recent economic down turn and financial crash the strict buildings had few if any problems. Because they vetted residents carefully, and because most are all cash or at least a major portion of the purchase price, they remained stable. Meanwhile the "everything goes" condos saw major losses as persons who had mostly paper wealth and or over extended themselves into debt to purchase, defaulted on their mortgages. This problem was very hard in particular for persons who purchased new buildings that were not even finished or in some cases built. As a result many things have changed.

It is now impossible to get a condo loan in NYC until a major portion of the building's units have sold. If you want to purchase on spec with your own money, fine. Condo boards also by and large have begun tightening things up. Some say many have become just as restrictive as many co-ops.

The other thing triggered by backlash against co-ops is the boom in private home ownership in Manhattan that has stretched into Brooklyn. Brownstones and townhouses that just twenty years ago you couldn't give away are now selling for tens of millions. We aren't just speaking about the better areas of Manhattan either. Park Slope, South Brooklyn, Flatbush, Williamsburg, Yorkville, the West Village, Chelsea, East Village, Harlem, Spanish Harlem, and so forth; anyplace you can find such buildings. If the buildings were carved up into apartments (as many townhouses and brownstones were) new owners will try their best to get shot of the tenants. Landlords of such buildings also will stop renting apartments that become vacant so they can sell the building "empty" which fetches a higher price.

In our area of Manhattan there are at least five townhouses on our street that have turned over several times in the fifteen or so years we've lived here. That and the near constant construction as these buildings are either rehabbed from apartments to private homes, or a new owner that paid 10 million USD for a place that sold for 4 million USD just a few years ago and was redone at that time as well.

ltattorneys.wordpress.com

Co-Op vs. Condos: Cooperative Foreclosures: The Jungle of “Non Judicial” Process

“Cooperative apartments are personal property, not real property. Accordingly, a contract for the sale of a cooperative apartment, in reality a sale of securities in a cooperative corporation, is g…
ltattorneys.wordpress.com ltattorneys.wordpress.com
 
Well, ventless drying is youst impossible in the US without Miele or, dont know how about Asko.
Well, Asko and Miele are two things, but as Eudora, the once most reliable producer of washers here in europe, switched from there own production for many years to Asko, they only got good reputation what i know about.
On, they are more quiet, more stylish and, the are way better featured for price. They indeed reach 205°F if you desire in a wash, they have washers with 1800rpm or, even more, 2000rpm. And if you think about drying energy, that an awful amount of enegy.
Well, they both still require 220V, the washer and the dryer, but, as you need it any way, that doesn't matter at all.
Tey are avaible as well as built in or under-counter models. So, with a door at the front, they are invisible AND quieter, they got 4 dampers and springs, Miele only 4 dampers and 2 springs (Think so, don't they?), and slightly bigger (0.1 cu ft, but avaible in 2.1 cuft, too).

The integrated washer with 1800rpm, 220V and only 41db during wash and 70 db during spin at full speed. THAT IS NOTHING!!!

http://www.askousa.com/laundry/washing-machines/washer-w6984fi/

The matching, ventless dryer (66db, 220 V, fully integrated, too)

http://www.askousa.com/laundry/tumble-dryers/dryer-t794cfi/

Or, not completly integrated with 72db spin and 45db wash and white only:

http://www.askousa.com/laundry/washing-machines/washer-w6884eco/

The matching dryer (66db):

http://www.askousa.com/laundry/tumble-dryers/dryer-t754c/

Now, I think, both got a chance, depending on your options and preferrences...
 
Asko Has A Vary Checkered Past

Here in the States.

Whatever "Swedish" quality the brand once had by most accounts went down hill years ago. You hear persons bemoaning lack of decent service, parts that continually fail, and so forth.

Would strongly hesitate to put Asko in the same category as Miele, again at least from comments here in the States.
 
Welcome

Welcome to AW.org, NYCWriter.

I can confirm that Miele products still enjoy an awesome reputation for reliability on this side of the 'pond'. As far as noise and vibration are concerned, I can only report that a friend of mine, when he first got a Miele, never tired of demonstrating the fact that he could place a U.K. £1 coin on it's edge on top of the machine before starting, and that it would still be there, on it's edge, at the end of a fully loaded cycle.

All best

Dave T
 
Thank you all ...

... for your thoughtful responses.

Launderess: "All this has lead to the recent condo boom in NYC. "

Not really.

The "condo boom" has been primarily the result of developer-driven new building development fueled by massive tax incentives. Developers don't care whether the building is condo or co-op (and in fact, more than a few condo buildings have since restructured themselves into co-ops!).

Interestingly enough, most buyers actually prefer *living* in a co-op, but prefer BUYING a condo.

I have a real estate broker friend who illustrates the point quite nicely. With the influx of all these "moneyed" people into New York City in the recent decade or so, quite a few of them have -- let's say -- "checkered" financial histories: Russian "businessmen" paying all cash, for instance, who have a bear of a time even trying to assemble the dreaded "board package" laying out their financial histories in any kind of straightforward manner. WAY too many questions to answer. So is it any wonder why they prefer to just plunk down the cash at a 10-minute closing and be done with it, NO questions asked?

Not all rich people are "businessmen", though -- and most people really don't like the invasive experience of a board of 7-12 people poring through their personal and financial lives (most "board packages" are literally at least an inch thick and usually contain several months' worth of bank statements, years of tax returns, letters from employers and attorneys, reference letters, letter of introduction, etc.).

But back to my real estate agent friend. She'll get a client who's in the market for, say, an 8 million dollar apartment, and the first words out of EVERY potential buyer's mouth is: "I want CONDO, not co-op!" Fine, fine ... so she'll take them around to all the shiny new glass buildings with all the latest amenities (including in-unit washers and dryers!), and then come the inevitable next questions: "Who are the neighbors?" Well, she can't legally tell them that. "You mean ANYONE can buy into this building?" Anyone with 8 million dollars, yes. "Wait, you mean INVESTORS can buy here and rent out to whomever they please?" Well, yes -- that's the "beauty" of a condo, remember? You can do (pretty much) anything you want with your unit.

So then she tells them "It sounds to me like you'd be more comfortable in a co-op than a condo!"

And so it goes.

It's human nature. Everyone wants to be IN the "private club", but no one wants to go through the hazing ritual of actually GETTING INTO the club!

Launderess explained the condo/co-op difference very well. Basically a condo is an apartment -- a piece of "REAL estate" -- that you buy that's part of a larger building. The physical space is yours. You can do with it as you please (live there, use it as a pied-a-tierre, rent it out, etc.). You pay for the unit in whatever manner you choose (cash, mortgage, etc.), you pay your own utilities and taxes, and you pay monthly "association dues" that pay for the running and upkeep of the building (capital improvements, utilities, building staff, etc.). A co-op, however, is a corporation that owns the entire building. The residents buy a percentage of shares in that corporation that are tied to the square footage of their apartments, and along with those shares comes an automatically renewable 99-year lease for the apartment. You pay a monthly "maintenance" to the building (usually considerably higher than what a similar condo owner would pay in monthly "dues"), but included in the maintenance is also the property taxes.

The main practical differences between the two is the degree of control the building "community" has on who buys into the building, and what they can do with their units while they get in. Most co-ops have stricter down-payment rules than even the mortgage companies; a typical requirement is not only 20% down, but proof of post-closing liquidity (and by liquid, I mean BANK accounts, not "frozen" assets like other real estate or even 401(k)s) often covering one year's worth of mortgage and maintenance payments. Many co-ops have much higher down-payment requirements: 25%, 35%, 50% ... and the "best" buildings (Fifth Avenue, Park Avenue) often require ALL CASH, no financing allowed. Co-ops can, through a giant yawning loophole, discriminate against pretty much anyone they want "off the record" buy turning down any applicant without legally being required to give a reason (and most co-op boards NEVER give a reason, for that very reason -- they don't want to open themselves up to any kind of lawsuit).

Once you're in, of course, in a co-op, the rules are stricter than condos, the main thing being that you usually cannot sublet your apartment indefinitely. They also require that the purchaser be the primary resident. Most buildings permit subletting for only one year at a time, and never consecutive years, to avoid the "investor" situation of turning the unit into a rental.

This actually makes a lot of sense, if you think about it: co-ops are creating a COMMUNITY of owners. They're buying for long-term living, and have a vested interest in who they share walls and ceilings with. They didn't spend a million dollars or more (the "average" price of a one-bedroom owner-occupied apartment in Manhattan is now more than a million dollars) to live in a building full of renters and short-term gypsies. They also didn't buy into a frat house; they look VERY closely at the personal lives of potential buyers to make sure it's not Mom and Dad from Long Island buying the apartment for Junior who'll soon be attending NYU.

And then there's the difference in the buildings themselves. It's true that very few co-op buildings have been built in the past 30 years. Most new buildings are all condos, so they don't have the inherent "pipe" problem of older buildings -- hence the lack of laundry in our units (and often strict forbidding of such!).

On the other hand, newer buildings tend to be absolutely dreadful; architecturally vapid, no character, smaller rooms, lower ceilings -- you feel like you're living in a shoebox. And the floor-to-ceiling glass window walls get real old real fast, causing problems with furniture placement, heat issues, privacy concerns, and even too much UV light fading upholstery and expensive rugs and art (which millionaires tend to have in their apartments). Glass walls also conduct sound better than stereo speakers, believe it or not; you can hear sidewalk conversations in normal speaking voices with absolute clarity in your 17th floor living room. The buildings with all the charm are typically prewar (pre-World War II), with generous layouts, thick masonry walls (love "exposed brick"? Buy a co-op!), and higher ceilings with amazing woodwork on the baseboard and moldings.

Anyway, those are the fundamental differences.

AND BY THE WAY ... FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm the president of my co-op board! So it's even worse for someone like me to flout the rules. What if I'm found out? The board can legally pretty much do anything from look the other way to force me to get rid of the units and charge me whatever penalty they want for every day those units are still in my apartment.
 
Wait? You Are The Board President?

Now that *is* a fine kettle of fish. *LOL*

Why not use your position and or influence to bring about changes in the building's rules so everyone can benefit? You realize if one day you are subsequently found out (assuming you go through with your plans) it will not set a good example. I mean if board presidents aren't going follow the rules then why should anyone else?

Will dispute to an extent claims that developers "don't care" between co-ops or condos here in NYC. Developers are going to build what sells and the savvy and or connected real estate families or kingpins will find ways to obtain whatever tax incentives possible, or at least pull every string in an attempt. The recent noise over granting such benefits to OneW57 shows that point IMHO.

Yes, persons do often want "co-op" rules with the fluidity of a condo, and as you say there are various reasons.

Quite a lot of very moneyed persons for instance do not want to tie up capital in real estate, even if only a down payment. If they can finance an apartment in whole or majority so much the better. Of course if you are Middle Eastern, Russian or lately Asian "money" you probably don't mind putting down ten or even twenty million *cash*, after all for many in that set there is more where that came from. IIRC Michael Kors and his husband paid cash for their OneW57 pad.

Condos are also easier to unload than co-ops. All the former basically has is right of first refusal, but IIRC some condo boards are tightening up there as well.

Regarding those god awful modern all glass buildings, agreed; cannot stand them and often wonder why someone would pay all that money to live in a goldfish bowl.

Have heard some interesting stories of the "views" inside many of those new mostly glass buildings that line "The Highline". By some accounts the activity that once historically took place beneath that structure has moved indoors with blinds open for God and the world to see. You cannot tell me persons don't know or suspect others can see into their apartments from that rail bed. *LOL*

The two new buildings on East 79th (Third Avenue corner, and between Lexington and Park, site of the old Hunter College School of Social Work) however are gorgeous. Lots of limestone and masonry as befitting classic UES buildings.
 
You've Done it Again!

<a name="start_48673.705181">"Regarding those god awful modern all glass buildings, agreed; cannot stand them and often wonder why someone would pay all that money to live in a goldfish bowl."</a>

 

I'm wondering if this takes the joke-of-the-week award!? I have a similar stance; Whilst goldfish bowls are nice at first, they do grow tiring rather quickly. I imagine the heating/cooling costs and privacy issues are fairly extreme - though in these mentioned "Co-Op" buildings does one get the luxury of non-individual utilities?


I'll take a lovely old European (i.e. Scandinavian) home on any day of the week over those "goldfish bowls." The exterior design is breath-taking, interior furnishing is wooden, perhaps conservative, but nice. And best of all (or worst?) No Co-Ops!

 

Then again, I'm wondering if Co-Ops aren't so bad... At least if you get in, you have the benefit of knowing your neighbors aren't hooligans, and perhaps the comfort that you won't have the "Rubbish-Dump" home just down the street, polluting the looks of the neighborhood and hurting consistency of the street.
 
Utilities ...

... in co-ops are handled the same way as utilities in condos in NYC: everyone pays his/her own.

Regardless of condo or co-op, each apartment has its own electric meter, and you get an individual electric bill from ConEd.

Same thing for natural gas.

Water and sewage are handled by the building and included in your monthly dues or maintenance.

HEATING is a different matter. If you're in an older building with steam heat, regardless of condo or co-op, it's included in your monthly dues or maintenance, since it's impossible to "meter". In buildings with newer HVAC units, it's included on your electric bill.
 
If you have 29" in width and 36" in depth, LG makes a FULL SIZE combination that needs no outside ventilation and OS fast because it has a huge 4.1 cut.ft. capacity stainless steel drum.I sold lots of them to folks in Miami/Dade County with condos and house boats. They work great and do best when the cold water is at least 70R.E.M. The colder the water, the faster the condenser dryers work.The average cycle is three and a quarter hours but can be reduced depending on the soul level and wash time needed. You can do a full load but,should take half the wet load out before drying to decrease drying time. The, AD the rest to dry only.
 
Thanks Chuck, BUT ...

... I'm avoiding LG because of their inherent design problems and apparent AWFUL customer service based on these YouTube videos:

 

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