Question for the Europeans about new washers with both hot and cold water intakes

[passatdoc]

I've read some threads on this board about new European models that have (or will have, when released) intakes for both hot and cold water. What I read was that it is more energy efficient to use hot water from a central water heater than to heat the water from cold with the washer's own heater.

This is basically what US TL washers have done for years, except that usually there was no built-in heater. These TL washers were not able to wash above c. 65 C (140 F), i.e. the temperature of the incoming hot water.

FL washers are available in the US both with or without built-in heaters. Those who need to wash above 65 C buy the machines with heaters, which cost more money. Since it's possible to wash clothes without an internal heater in a US FL, models with heaters are marketed as "European luxury" or "top of the the line" models, with a price increase to match.

Most Americans who have visited Europe stay in hotels rather than in private homes, and are often unaware that nearly ALL European washers heat from cold water lines and HAVE to have internal heaters. So it's easy to market to Americans that having an internal heater is an upscale, European feature. (and the Europeans are scratching their heads, wondering what the big deal is, because you HAVE to have a heater if you have only a cold water line input).

So my question to the Europeans is: have you seen any new FLs with hot and cold water intakes? Do all of them have heaters, or are they being made in heaterless and heated models? If you have seen any heaterless models, are they significantly less expensive than models with heaters?

Note: most heaterless washers above BOL in US have "automatic temperature control" which supposedly mixes the water from the hot and cold intakes in variable ratios to assure a consistent water temperature for "warm" and "cold" temperature selections. This makes up for seasonal variations in cold line temperatures or hot water being used elsewhere in the house, thereby reducing the hot water line temperature (more hot water is mixed with less cold water to make "warm" water in such cases).

Without a heater, of course, such models cannot boost the temperature of incoming hot water if usage elsewhere reduces the hot water supply, but when "warm" is selected, auto temp control can take in more hot water and less cold water if hot water line temp is below optimal.

For example, Frigidaire(Electrolux) model 2140, their base model in their 3.5 cu ft line, has no heater and lacks auto temp control. The next model up the line, the 2940, has no heater but does have auto temp control, and a few extra features (variable delay start, LED time remaining indicator) and sells for $50-100 more. If you go $100-150 or so above the 2140, you get the 7000 model with an internal heater.

 

[passatdoc]

ps

Even when an internal heater is used here in USA, it only has to boost the incoming hot water to the somewhat higher temperature specified by the manufacturer for the "Sanitary" cycle. Since it's only working on 120V, it's a good thing it doesn't have to heat from the cold water line, or else it would take hours to run a single load of laundry!

 

[toggleswitch2]

IIRC our very own Launderess once wisely stated that washing variables and factors include:

1-Water
2-Chemical action (including limited or non-existant phospates)
3-Mechanical action
4-Time
5-Heat

So if in a front-loader the first three items are limited, one had best supply the 4th and 5th items/resources to get acceptable results.

 

[favorit]

Hi PassatDoc,
the only machines without heater we have ever had were those impeller V-X TL (LG , Samsung, Daewoo) a decade ago. I even saw a Filter Flo in a exibition in Milan and picked up a brochure. No need to say that once Lady EuroHousewife realized she hadn't any boilwash available here those machines became more than a rarity.

Even the crappiest machine you can buy @ less than 200€ @ big stores has ever had its own heater.

Hot and cold fill machines with internal heater have always been here, expecially commercial ones. There were even some household machines, mostly on the British market(Hoover, Hotpoint, Miele, Philco - see bendix vintage thread-,Zanussi,Candy, Bosch.Siemens.Hausgeraete -one is in the Bosch 1986 thread-) .

Now, with the eco-green trend, double fill is the latest luxury,so they cost a bit more than cold fill only equivalent models.
I.e miele W3841 cost around 200€ more than the equivalent W3825/W3855 cold fill only

Rex/Zanussi/Electrolux Sunny cost around 100€ more than the same cold fill only models

The sunny (following link) has a button to allow cold fill only in case of particular stains that require profile washes (that were a vintage E'lux battlehorse). What coincidence, it has also the adv of a solar panel producer

I have my "custom" double fill old W780. As my daily driver is the W844, the washer tap is busy. So I have to hook the older washer to the washing tub tap. I open the hot water knob of the tap, then after 20 mins I close it and open the cold water one, to avoid hot rinses.

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www.rex.it

 

[favorit]

Toggles, your're right about new euro FL and DW.

To achieve the "A" marks both for energy efficency and washing performance those cycles that are subdued to EU norms (typically "cottons" 60°C/140°F) take ages and are nearly wetcleaning programs.

Some machines have some tricks (i.e mieles have "waterplus" and "short" buttons; swiss machines -Schulthess, Merker V-Zug- have "swiss" programs (shorter with higher levels) beside standard euro ones

 

[passatdoc]

Favorit....it seems as if the "new" double fill feature (which was the ONLY way automatic machines in US have ever had, not counting 240V Mieles sold here with cold water only fill) is being sold as a luxury feature....whereas over here, double fill heaterless washers are BOL or very basic (but they work). Over here, they sell heaters as a luxury feature and jump the price by $200-300. It's as if they are marketing US features in Europe as some new deluxe feature and charging money for it, and in US they sell us "European" features and charge us more for it.

That said, I think it may in some cases be more cost efficient to use central hot water rather than to heat cold water inside the washer. I remember my time as an exchange student in Holland during high school. Instead of central hot water, they had a point of use gas heater mounted on the wall at each location where hot water was needed (kitchen, bathrooms, etc.). The washer was in the garage and did not have a wall heater, but I now realize it was heating the water electrically in typical European fashion.

Holland has huge natural gas resources and all the major appliances in the house, like the oven and the range, ran on gas....no wonder, it probably cost less, being domestically produced, than electricity, particularly in a flat country (I understand they now generate electricity with tidal power, but that did not exist when I lived there). Even now, it's probably more economical to have a central gas water heater, as many of my friends in Holland in newer homes have, than to heat the water electrically inside the washer. Of course, in countries with hydropower (mountains, etc.) but fewer oil/gas resources (Switzerland, Sweden, and Italy are examples), perhaps the cost advantage of using gas is less obvious.

 

[logixx]

I'm not aware of a front loader in Europe without a heater.

Miele has two machines in its German line-up with H/C water hoses. Bosch also have one. I've seen Electrolux having one - although not in Germany. The idea is to use hot water from solar panels and such to reduce heating cost.

Alex

 

[favorit]

Power in IT

Here gas is cheaper than electric power (till now ...) and solar energy (both thermal and electric) is getting more common.

Electric power is rather expensive here. After Tchernobyl nuke disaster in 1987 we voted against nuke powerstations and the existing ones closed. So we have to import power from [those nuke powerstations located in] France and Switzerland. Just 150 miles over the border.

Anyway, after I saw on TV what earthquake had caused to the badly built L'Aquila town hospital, I'm glad not to have them. Now they are worried about a reservoir dam damaged ... fancy if it were a nuke power station...

In France they have daily small "events" (those stations are about 30 y.o.)

In Germany they stored nuke waste in a old salt mine and now they have big problems with underground waterflows ...

W.H.O. is subdue to I.A.E.A, so business is more important than our healt....
In Germany they wanted to have an indipendent point of view,
so started a survey. They found out that around nuke stations (ie Krummel) there were 5x childhood cancers than average national standards ...

In the meanwhile our lovely comed.. opps prime minister wants to go back to nukes ( probably he has some love affair with Elecrticitè de France ....)

Sorry for the long OT

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www.report.rai.it

 

[electron800]

In the UK it's only in the last few years that cold fill only machines have come on the market. We moved to Germany in 2002 and were shocked to see that there was no hot fill outlet to connect our washer to. When we moved back in 2006, almost every washer on sale here was cold fill only.

I was always under the impression having the washer heat from cold was considered more efficient, because most homes have boilers far less efficient than the washer's heater, and the water used from the hot water tank would have to be replaced and reheated, so twice as much has to be heated if that makes sense.

In the UK (at least all the houses I have lived in) the hot water systems have been gravity fed (the hot water tank is upstairs). This makes the pressure of the hot water far lower than that of cold. Despite the fact that my washer is hot and cold fill, even if the nearest tap is run to get the water hot and the hot water temp is very high (hotter than the hand can bear), the water in the machine after fill is barely tepid. This means it is necessary to have a heater in the washer to get even warm water with hot and cold fill.

On hot fill only washes (60c+), if the tap has been run to get the water going into the washer hot from the start of the fill, the timer basically clicks past the heating phase onto main wash. This is ofcourse less efficient because a lot of water is wasted running the tap to get it hot.

Another factor is that filling from cold and heating gives a longer wash, with better results, especially when used with biological detergents.

 

[brisnat81]

Miele have been marketing the Hot and Cold fill machines here for use with Solar and Heat Pump hotwater systems. LG also seems to sell mainly H+C fill machines.

That way you reduce the energy required to heat the water.

If you dont have those systems, they reccomend a cold water connection only.

It used to be that All Miele models other than the base model had H+C available as an option, but it comes by default with the TOL stuff.

Australia gets huge amounts of Sun each year, its now mandatory for new houses to have Solar, Heat Pump or Gas hotwater. The days of the Electric storage tank are gone unless you are replacing an existing install.

 

[mielabor]

The whole of the Netherlands was converted to natural gas in the 1960's. Energy saving was no issue then: the more gas you used, the lower the rates went! Our neighbours decided to install gas central heating for the whole house (before that they had a kerosene stove) because then their gas use was high enough to get a cheaper rate.

Now about hot fill washers:
They are not very popular here. First, a hot water tap for a washer is almost never present so this has to be installed at cost. Second, the water usage of modern machines is so low that a considerable part of the hot fill consists of cold water that was sitting in the pipes at the start of the filling and after filling heat is lost from the water that didn't enter the machine but remains in the pipes. The second issue is of course depending on the distance between washer and water heater.

For me hot fill is no issue as all my water is electrically heated.

The link is a Dutch commercial from 1969 to promote natural gas ("aardgas").

 

[launderess]

It is very difficult to compare, as washing habits on either side of the pond vary. This comes from both traditional wash day methods and preferences and factoring in economics and lifestyle.

The United States is rather a young country, with abundant natural resources,and or a populace by and large not adverse to importing petrol to meet it's needs.

By and large most heating and hot water is done in the United States either with oil or natural gas, both of which are cheaper in many areas than electric power.

Miele tried until they were blue in the fact to convince large amounts of American housewives and others that using a 220v washer to heat cold or cool water to warm or hot was the way to go. In response consumers shot back they have a huge boiler or hot water heater for that purpose, and didn't see any benefit,and the effect might be a larger electric bill.

Miele also tried (and gave up on), making US consumers understand high wash temperatures combined with oxygen bleach gave stunning whites. This "boil wash" of Europe also didn't sit with Americans who by and large are wedded to using vast amounts of LCB for whitening, stain removal and disenfecting their laundry.

Even Consumers Reports states that the savings from allowing the washing machine to heat water verus drawing it from the tap is going to vary based upon several factors.

In Europe and the UK, things are obviously different. Housing stock in older by and large, sometimes much older, (we are talking centuries here), and often it is not possible nor wished to retro fit homes or apartment buildings with central hot water. Hence all those hot water heaters over sinks or tucked in a closet or cubby off the kitchen or bath. Indeed one of the few bright spots (if one could call it that), of WWII was so much was bombed out,that new buildings went up with more mod cons.

It is still fairly common to rent or purchase a flat or apartment and get just that; one has to fit out everything including kitchen and bath fixtures, and perhaps some plumbing.

Given the various methods for heating hot water in Europe/UK and often quite high energy costs, it does make sense to let the washng machine heat water. Even more because 220v power is the norm, and sometimes one can even get 400v.

One supposes the push towards cold fill only machines in Europe has to do with "energy" savings, based upon a rather general formula. However considering how long cycle times are already on many modern EU front loaders, adding more time to heat water drags things on for hours.

Of course EU regulators may be betting on the recent trent towards warm and cold water washing, which does not require the Uber-high wash temps of old. Boil washing is dying a slow but steady death all across the EU and UK. Heating cold or even very cold water to 85F or 100F is a snap when using 220v power.

 

[askomiele]

Okay Hot and Cold Water Connection on washer...

Now Way!
Here in belgium this won't work. The machines are placed rather far away from boilers. Plus something else. Many people here collect rainwater and use it to wash clothing, flush toilets, spray garden. Because of that it's impossilbe to use hot water. The watercircuit transporting drinkwater and rainwater must be separated all the time. So you should need an extra waterheating divice to heat the water for washing clothing besides the waterheater for regular use. Besides all that it's really stupid to heatup and keep so much extra water on temperature, just for the washer. A washing machine only heats up the water she needs to get the clothes clean.

 

[toggleswitch2]

one gallon =3.78 L

What I don't understand is this.

If phosphates are needed to hold soil in suspension, especially over long periods of time, why would a cold fill on 110v make any sense considering how long it would take to boost even an few gallons of water to "proper" temperature?

Without phosphates, long wash times make no sense.

I llke the idea of a boil-washer and want to purchase one. (Anyone have a used one for sale, cheap and nearby? *LOL*)
but without a good, fast 220v heater, why bother?

 

[favorit]

we should copy you Belgian !

we crazy people use only potable water, even to flush toilets and spray gardens. Notice that in Italy water pipelines are often "on the strainer side" (some of those waste even 50%).

Do people even rinse in rainwater ??
I know that double fill ALLWATER mieles have 3 possible modes : hot&cold fill or soft&hard fill or potable&non-potable fill
In the 3rd mode the machine washes with non potable water and rinses with potable one

BTW don't you have instant(flow through) gas heater such as Vaillant, Buderus or Junkers ?

 

[MrX]

Almost all homes in Ireland have hot and cold water connections for washing machines, as these were used by most machines until quite recently. Cold-fill is really only a late 1990s/early 2000s thing here. Other than German machines, like Miele etc, the majority of machines produced for the UK and Ireland market had two fill valves.

Central hot water is normal in most homes here. It's usually heated by the same system that heats the radiators using a heat-exchanger in the water heater. The same heater, also contains a pair of electric elements placed at different heights. If you switch on "Sink" it heats the top of the tank only (i.e. for washing hands, dishes etc during the day) and if you put on "Bath" a larger, lower electric element switches on heating the entire tank for baths/showers etc.

The main reason that hot fill was dropped in recent years on most (but not all) machines was quite simply a case of standarisation across all European markets.

All EU machines, regardless of fill type, have a powerful heater and can (and do) work from cold water. So manufacturers simply dropped the hot fill valves as they were considered 'special models' for the UK/Ireland and a few other markets where they were the norm.

Most machines that I am familiar with only filled with hot, if they were set to 60C or 90C, for a normal 40C wash they did a cold fill only.

In Ireland, if there was no central hot water, you had to use a Y-connector to provide cold water to both hot and cold valves. Without hot water, the machine would work as normal, it would just take a little longer to wash on hot cycles.

The other major factor is that European wash temperatures have lowered, 60C has been replaced by 40C (and less). It's increasingly unusual to do 60C washes here. I would guess that almost all laundry here is done on a 40C mixed-colours cotton cycle or a fast-wash cycle. It's certainly how most people I know use their machines.

Detergents are so good that it's really not necessary to wash very hot to get stains out. Maybe you might use it for bed clothes and towels, although most people seem to use 40C for everything.

Also, the new machines use significantly less water than their 1970s and 80s counterparts. So, heating the machine up from cold is not really all that time consuming or energy consuming. A 230V 2kW heater will bring the temp up to 40C with in a matter of minutes and 60C / 90C washes are very long anyway, so it's not really an issue.

The main reason for the return of hot/cold filling is solar water heating is becoming common and the various environmental agencies want people to use it for washing.

Obviously it's energy saving if you can use water heated by the sun.

 

[askomiele]

Jup laundry is washed and rinsed in rainwater and if you keep your "well" clean there is nothin "yuk" about it.

We have flow through heaters but not every house has the ability of using gas + still don't get the second heater thing... it's just not efficient

 

[dj-gabriele]

I prefer cold fill only machine in everyday, averange home use. Usually the machine heats only around 10 to 15 litres of water and purging the lines/re heating cold water run from a heater simply wastes energy.
One could want a double fill machine only in case of solar heating, in which case running hot or cold water has the same price and cold hot water is never as cold as cold.
Using already hot water has a downside! If one washes at 60° or more the enzymes in the detergent won't be effective like they would in a profile wash.
My old machine, a Philco Agile 6, from 1993 I think, was cold and hot fill but was connected to cold line only because it was in a bathroom far from the main hot water line and to get hot water to the washer was a waste as by the time the water got hot, the machine already filled and our hot water is cheap! Figures others.

I second that what is old is new again, but with energy regulations so tight double fill washers will stay as niche products.

 

[MrX]

Typical Irish system

Here's a typical Irish hot water system.

The hot water tank also has electric heating elements not illustrated in that picture. In a solar systems there's a second heat exchanger, but it's basically the same concept.

It can be heated by electricity, gas/oil/solid fuel/wood pellets (any source of heat for radiators), and solar.

The system's gravity fed (as is the cold water to bathrooms).
Showers are often boosted with a double-header pump that automatically boosts the pressure to anytime the water flows into the shower lines anything up to about 6 bars for power showers.

Kitchens, dishwashers and washing machines typically take their cold feed from the mains. The mains pressure is usually higher than the gravity fed hot water systems.

I know some homes where the pressure boosting pump will kick in on all hot water outlets (including the washing machine). It basically matches the mains pressure.