Range upgrade

[combo52]

Canadian Built WP-KA Ranges

KA sold a lot of these nicely featured ranges ranges for about 10 years, there were both all gas versions and smooth-top electric models. WP closed the plant in Canada over 10 years ago and moved all their better range production back to the US.

 

We have a lot of experience with these ranges, there are some good points about these ranges and a lot of problems.

 

 Weak points were the capacitance touch controls could be problematic and difficult and expensive to fix.

 

More minor problems, door hinges, lots of broken inner door glass, failure of the epoxy coating on the edges of the cook-top trim, door lock problems, uneven baking, weak broiling [ gas models ]

 

Overall the Roper-GE range might be a little better but personally I would not have any of these three gas ranges as my main stove in my home but for your purposes any might work, I would keep the electric Frigidaire compact 30 we had one of these in our house in West Virginia when we bought it from 1965 and it baked wonderfully and the cook-top was better than any gas range I ever used, but I am much more of an electric range type guy as I cook every day.

 

John L.

 

[jamiel]

Looks like that chipped enamel could have been from an attempt to lift up the cooktop, tilt the grates, dropping the grate--something like that. Don't think it will impact much of anything.

 

[appnut]

John, I will remind you California has a tiered electric usage/billing system. And as user progress through the 3 or 4 tiers, the KWH price becomes even more outrageously expensive. And I don't blame Rich for trying to keep his usage down a best as possible. My sister & BIL do the same thing with their gas range, gas clothes dryer, and their house also has gas heat.

 

[iheartmaytag]

Electric rates--off topic, but will add it anyway

Yesterday it was cool in the morning 62 when I got up. So I decided to clean the oven, high heat, only about the second time in seven years, as I usually use the steam clean function but had a puddle of grease that had burned on where a meatloaf spilled over .

I was so happy that I could shut off the kitchen and enjoy cool weather and get that oven clean. Then about noon when the cleaning was complete it dawned on me. I just did this electric intense usage on peak times which will take me to tier 2 for sure. So I saved on not having AC on, which it usually doesn't come on until about 2 or so in the afternoon, but I screwed myself with a clean oven.

Just one more month and we will be into winter rates, and I won't have to worry so much about time of day usage. If I had waited until after 7PM that job would only have cost me about half as much, and wouldn't have put me in the higher tier for the rest of the month.

So in a long way around to get back on topic, I can understand wanting to see how you can conserve electric usage any way you can.

 

[ea56]

Bob,

I live in California in an all electric home. In the 27 years we’ve lived here we’ve never gone above tier 2, and thats usually only for the last 4-5 days in the billing period.

BTW, about 5 years ago when they changed the TOU hours for the lower rates to 4pm to 9pm everyday from 1pm to 5pm M-F, with the lower rate all day Sat and Sun, we went to the flat rate 24/7, and our bills hardly increased at all, plus we aren’t confined to when we could use the dryer or the electric heat. Before we would freeze from 1 to 5 M-F because it was too expensive to turn on the heat on cold days.

Yes, electricity is expensive, but the small number of KWH’s we use to cook and bake with our electric range in minimal. I know this for a fact, because with the SMART meter I can check the next day to see just how many KWH’s were used not only for the day , but hour by hour. What I’ve learned is that the electric dryer and electric hydronic baseboard heaters are the highest electric consuming appliances we have. I bake all of our bread, rolls and desserts and cook dinner at least 350 nights a years and still the electricity used for this purpose is minimal.

I feel that the choice between gas and electric stoves for cooking and baking is a personal preference. You either like one or the other and the amount of KWH’s used doesn’t make a bit of difference for those of us that prefer electric stoves. I’ve used both gas and electric since I learned to cook, and given a choice I’ll take electric every time.

Eddie[this post was last edited: 9/10/2021-11:54]

 

[appnut]

Eddie, thank you. I'm very well aware of all of what you have described, you have shared this information before. I have a smart meter and I keep track of cumulative hours used daily. At some point years ago, I was able to track usage by hour, but that went away about 8-10 years ago. In the last 8 days, my daily usage has ranged from 48.5 kwh to 69.1 kwh for the day. That high amount was due to our very first 100 degree day this summer, have had one of the "coolest" summers this year. In 2011, a record hot summer, we had 90+ days that had temperatures 100 degrees or above. My most recent bill was a 31 day billing cycle and my average daily usage was 51 kwh/day.

 

[ea56]

Wow Bob, 51 KWH per day is a lot! But you guys in Texas have to use AC, in Northern California most of us don’t need to use AC. In the summer months we average 12-13 KWH per day and in the winter months we average btwn 31-35 KWH per day, and thats with the electric heat being used. We are very careful with our electric use. Lights are never left on in rooms that are unoccupied and we have LED bulbs in most of the lamps and fixtures.

One thing is for sure, the electric rates are gonna continue to rise.

Eddie

 

[appnut]

Eddie, as a point of interest, my billing period during the huge Texas freeze in February, I used 1806 kwh for the billing cycle of 30 days. My bill was $215 and change.

 

[ea56]

Bob our highest bill in 27 years was for 1-22-21 to 2-22-21, 32 billing days total KWH 1202.7 or an average of 37.58 per day and the charges were $365.27. Our baseline usage or tier 1 was 492.9 KWH, the tier 2 usage was 709.9 KWH. You’re luck yto have such low rates in Texas.

Eddie

 

[iheartmaytag]

I used 35Kw yesterday as opposed to 16kw so far today, and 25 on Wednesday. Yesterday's oven cleaning put me at 4.46 peek demand. We have had some 100+ weeks the end of August and first week of Sept, things are cooler now, but expected to step back to the triples next week. I used 46kw with a Peek of 5.37 on the 105 day looking back at smart meter history.

 

[DADoES]

Electrical consumption

 
All-electric.  Less than average cooking and washing and water heating.  24yo garage refrigerator.  17yo house refrigerator.  Aerobic septic system.  Water well.  Two desktop computers run 24/7; another used 1.5 hrs-ish, on "sleep" rest of the time, each on a separate UPS.  Various other electronics.

104.17 kWH - Fri 8/27 (turned off the doing-nothing central A/C at noon, 6K window unit installed afternoon)

51.29 - Sat 8/28 (18K window unit added late afternoon)

83.50 - Sun 8/29

85.96 - Mon 8/30 (last day of running the central blower to circulate the window units for floor fans instead, 18K turned off at midnight-ish to 7:30-8am)

58.21 - Tue 8/31

53.17 - Wed 9/1

53.00 - Thu 9/2

47.25 - Fri 9/3

57.54 - Sat 9/4

54.17 - Sun 9/5

52.08 - Mon 9/6

56.79 - Tue 9/7

54.13 - Wed 9/8

53.04 - Thu 9/9

 

[sudsmaster]

A few months ago I switched to the TOU "Light" Tier: 5pm to 8 pm, M-F, lower rates. At the time, PG&E said it might save me $5/mo at my then current usage.

 

What I have done is to shut off the two-speed recirculation pump on the 1000+ gallon koi pond in the back garden, M-F from about 4 pm to 9 pm. I believe this has increased the savings. Last time I checked, the big pond pump uses about 150 watts at low speed, depending on how the water valve is set. I tested this one day to see if there was any ill effect on the fish. There wasn't. In fact a few days ago I shut it off about 4 pm but forgot to turn it back on. So it was off for at least 12 hours, till I got to it the next morning. No ill effect on the fish or waters quality. I've been working on adding a timer to the circuit, but since it's all outdoors it might be a bit tricky.

 

The other major electric usage is the well pump. I use that water to irrigate the back garden, and also to sprinkle the front lawn. There's probably a trade off between the water cost of using city water for those things, and the electricity cost for using the well water. I just haven't calculated which is more costly. As it is, I have timers on the various watering devices and these turn on  the well pump well outside the TOU restriction hours. The fish ponds get topped off every morning with city water via timers that are adjusted slightly depending on season and results. Some years back I attempted to use well water to top off the ponds. The resultant fish kill made me abandon that approach.

 

The main PITA is that, while I have long since replaced the Corning glass electric cooktop in the main kitchen, with a gas cooktop, the wall oven in there is electric (GE P*7) so I do not use it during the TOU hours. The wall oven is built in nicely, so it would not be easy to replace with a gas unit. Plus the P*7  is a good design and works well. This is why I'd like to have a gas range in the patio kitchen, to be able to roast or bake stuff for dinners as needed without incurring higher costs.

 

[sudsmaster]

I check with my neighbor and he said that the KA range they removed and which I'm planning on installing here, does work, but all they used was the top burners. He didn't know if the oven worked or not, but said his wife might know.

 

In any case, I'll be hanging onto the other two gas ranges just in case, as well as the Frigidaire Compact 30 I plan on removing.

 

One complication may be that the current Compact30 range is a drop-in, I think, whereas the replacements are all slide in. I remember looking at that years ago and determining that it would no big deal to removed the three or so inches of lower paneling to allow a slide in to fit. More measurements in store...

 

 

[sudsmaster]

Might be a little more tricky, due to the current drop-in cabinetry. I'm gonna have to measure the distance between the brick flooring in the patio kitchen and the counter-top, to make sure it will all fit. Might have to yank/saw some bricks. We'll see.

 

 

[combo52]

A drop-in range is very different that a slide-in model, they usually do not interchange with out modifications to cabinets etc.

 

Unless the FD is in bad condition from being outdoors all these years I would either just keep it or look for the much more energy efficient self-cleaning FD Compact 30.

 

If you are changing to gas to reduce electricity consumption look for a gas range  with spark ignition like a WP built SC range.

 

The hot surface igniter that these two gas ranges use 400 watts of power the entire time the oven burner is on, the WP design uses around 10 watts of power when operating.

 

Using the SC cycle on an electric oven should not throw most people into a higher rate level.

 

The SC cycle uses around 2-6 KWs of power, about the same as drying one load of laundry in an electric dryer.

 

If you are foolish enough to run the SC cycle while the A/C is in use you may add 1-2 KWs of power use to remove the heat from your home.

 

John L.

 

[sudsmaster]

By "FD" I'm assuming you mean "FrigiDaire", right?

 

In any case, it's in excellent condition. The patio it's on is fully enclosed, with a full roof. Other than some ancient staining from leaky skylights, which are not over the range location, there is no moisture intrusion in to the patio kitchen.

 

I just got back from my measurements. The width and depth of the GE and KA slide in ranges look like they will work with the existing counter top. The kick-panel under the FD drop in range looks like it's a 2x4, which I'm assuming is part of a frame holding up the range. I'll know more once I pull the FD range.

 

The Modern Maid looks like it's a drop-in design, quite a bit shorter than the other two.

 

There is a slight slant of the brick flooring away from the counter-top area, which makes sense for a patio. The wall against which the kitchen is arrayed in a line is the outer wall of the east side of the home. The far wall of the patio kitchen is an interesting array. There's about four feet of rock garden raised above the floor level, out to the property line. at the property line is a line of jalousie windows, all of which can be opened, with good screening on the outside. That's about four feet high. On top of that is a slanted portion that meets the edge of the patio roof, about 1 foot below it. From there is about a foot of translucent plastic, which has aged very well. Then the edge of the patio roof itself with a gutter etc. There is some water leakage from rain in spots on the framing around the outer wall/window feature, but any water winds up in the rock garden which is raised with a brick barrier between it and patio brick floor. On top of that, due to the slight slant of the brick patio floor, any water can easily drain out of the patio area down the intersection of the rock garden and the patio floor, to a chink in the brick which obviously was put there to assist in draining. Back when there was far less clutter in the patio, I was able to hose down the patio floor and confirm that the drainage is all what it needs to be.  I suppose a photo would help explain all this.

 

In any case, I have to do several things before I start replacing the FD electric range:

 

1) Confirm there's an extension of the city gas line to the range area

2) Pull the FD and make more observations/measurements of the nook it's occupying

3) Figure out the best spot for the extension of the city gas line to the replacement gas range. Obviously it needs to be place where one can access it as needed while the range is installed. Perhaps a big key?

4) Remeasure each range replacement candidate to see which one will be the best fit.

5) Adjust accordingly.

 

As far as oven electricity consumption, I didn't see anything in the KA manual about 400 watt burner igniter. Don't have a manual for the GE or Modern Maid ranges yet. It would still be less than trying to bake something with 2000 watt electric elements, I would think.

 

 

 

 

 

[sudsmaster]

Here's a fun video on how to replace the oven igniter on the KA/etc style ranges. Hint: they must glow white hot or oven (or broiler) won't work. I guess that's the 400 watts John mentioned. Now I'm curious as to how Modern Maid does it!

 

 

 

[sudsmaster]

Here's the installation manual for the KA Superba slide in convection range. Note that it only says a 10 amp 120 volt properly polarized AC circuit is needed. Doesn't list the wattage of the oven/broiler igniters, but 400 watts that John mentioned seems about right for getting them "white hot". I did a little more searching an a replacement igniter costs around $100. Yikes.

 

Will be taking a closer look at the Modern Maid... specifically how much juice it uses to ignite the oven and burner.

 

I sort of miss the good old days when stoves/ranges had pilot lights!

 

https://data2.manualslib.com/pdf4/8...ng_range.pdf?2796eaaedb97b20754004e54232b25f6

 

[combo52]

Best Of 3 Available Used Gas Ranges

Hi Rich, The MM may use a spark ignition system for the oven in which case it uses almost 0 power to light and stay burning, the other big advantage of spark oven ignition is it can be match lit like the top burners if electrical power is ever lost, however most MMS also used the hot surface igniters like the other two.

 

The MM is more likely to be a true drop-in design if the oven is not a true SCing oven.

 

John L.

 

[jamiel]

Yeah, early MM versus later Raytheon/Caloric MM are verrry different animals.