autowasherfreak
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 3,637
So happy you got her up and running again. She's a beauty!
RCA Whirlpool, not CA, this time I checked my typign
- Thread starter akronman
- Start date
1960 WP IMPERAL MARK 12 WASHER
Mark I am glad you figured out the spray rinse draining problem, when ever I work on BD WP built washers I have always adjusted the feet so the left front corner of the machine is a bit lower as it really does help. Perfectly level is OK but tilted to the LF is better, this would also apply to thier DD washers, you never want them tilting to the rear. Now GE FF washers are another matter as they work better if they are slightly tilted to the rear.
Mark I am glad you figured out the spray rinse draining problem, when ever I work on BD WP built washers I have always adjusted the feet so the left front corner of the machine is a bit lower as it really does help. Perfectly level is OK but tilted to the LF is better, this would also apply to thier DD washers, you never want them tilting to the rear. Now GE FF washers are another matter as they work better if they are slightly tilted to the rear.
On WP pumps and cabinets tilting back
I have done the same thing that John/Combo just said - it is MUCH better to have a machine either level or tilting slightly front left. Since the tub drains are in the front left corner, this will allow the tub to fully drain, and not allow water to remain, which can eventually cause rust in the outer tub.
As to the pumps that Glenn mentioned above, the four port pump and the original two port (a sibling of the four port) do NOT have a flapper valve shut off in them. The shifting lever is used to switch directions of water flow in the top half of the pump. The lower half of the four port (which is absent in a two port) operates at all times in same direction. The top two ports circulate water from right to left during agitation, and from left to right during drain. Water is never stopped or blocked in these pumps. This is why on some models using either the 2 or 4 port pumps, that water can be sucked in from the drain hose at any time during agitation.
There is a pump with a flapper valve that shuts-off water flow, but this is the newer two port and three port pumps which have the off-set chamber on their left sides. This pump was introduced around 1974. This pump moves water in one direction only, from left to right, and during agitation, the flapper closes water flow off so the machine won't drain. This is why this family of pumps cannot be used in machines with self-cleaning lint filters which operate with circulating water.
Gordon
I have done the same thing that John/Combo just said - it is MUCH better to have a machine either level or tilting slightly front left. Since the tub drains are in the front left corner, this will allow the tub to fully drain, and not allow water to remain, which can eventually cause rust in the outer tub.
As to the pumps that Glenn mentioned above, the four port pump and the original two port (a sibling of the four port) do NOT have a flapper valve shut off in them. The shifting lever is used to switch directions of water flow in the top half of the pump. The lower half of the four port (which is absent in a two port) operates at all times in same direction. The top two ports circulate water from right to left during agitation, and from left to right during drain. Water is never stopped or blocked in these pumps. This is why on some models using either the 2 or 4 port pumps, that water can be sucked in from the drain hose at any time during agitation.
There is a pump with a flapper valve that shuts-off water flow, but this is the newer two port and three port pumps which have the off-set chamber on their left sides. This pump was introduced around 1974. This pump moves water in one direction only, from left to right, and during agitation, the flapper closes water flow off so the machine won't drain. This is why this family of pumps cannot be used in machines with self-cleaning lint filters which operate with circulating water.
Gordon
WP BD WASHER PUMPS
Gordon Excellent information as always, the one thing I would add to your last paragraph is that the newer two and three port pumps wouldn't work on suds-saver machines either. Which is why the four port pump was used on some BD machines till the end of production on the Suds-Saver models.
Gordon Excellent information as always, the one thing I would add to your last paragraph is that the newer two and three port pumps wouldn't work on suds-saver machines either. Which is why the four port pump was used on some BD machines till the end of production on the Suds-Saver models.
Thanks but more help needed
Thank you all ---Kenmoreguy and combo, the pump description lets me know how to someday maybe turn this into a poorman's suds-saver, and the tilt Left Front works perfectly.
But check my newest thread,
http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?33949_1#bott
because now I'm having inlet solenoid diaphragm issues. It's a 3 solenoid Detroit controls valve, various rebuild kits seem to have become NLA in just the last year.
And potentially a minor tub leak for repair, but one item at a time. This one is a keeper and a beauty and a rare find, but that doesn't mean she's perfect yet.
Thanks for all your input!
http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?33949_1#bott
Thank you all ---Kenmoreguy and combo, the pump description lets me know how to someday maybe turn this into a poorman's suds-saver, and the tilt Left Front works perfectly.
But check my newest thread,
http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?33949_1#bott
because now I'm having inlet solenoid diaphragm issues. It's a 3 solenoid Detroit controls valve, various rebuild kits seem to have become NLA in just the last year.
And potentially a minor tub leak for repair, but one item at a time. This one is a keeper and a beauty and a rare find, but that doesn't mean she's perfect yet.
Thanks for all your input!
http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?33949_1#bott
You're absolutely right John, I don't think about suds models often.
The newer single direction two and three port pumps were used in most all non-suds BDs from 1982 or so when the basket mounted filters became WP's fad. For some reason, the old two-port was not used with this filter, I'm thinking because it can get clogged with lint since the basket mount's lint actually goes through the filter vs. being flushed downline from it in the older self cleaners.
The four port pump was used on all machines that had the triple dispenser, as the lower ports were used to feed the dispenser instead of a lint filter. To me that is sort of a neat bit of trivia that such a common pump in the 50s and 60s BDs still had a use until the very end. The two port was used on suds models of all the rest of the machines since they needed the old two-port's ability to reverse flow to send water back into the machine. The old two port was also used on the last BOL belt-drives that had no filters at all. Production of these ended around 1984 I think when the early DDs took over that segment of the model line.
G
The newer single direction two and three port pumps were used in most all non-suds BDs from 1982 or so when the basket mounted filters became WP's fad. For some reason, the old two-port was not used with this filter, I'm thinking because it can get clogged with lint since the basket mount's lint actually goes through the filter vs. being flushed downline from it in the older self cleaners.
The four port pump was used on all machines that had the triple dispenser, as the lower ports were used to feed the dispenser instead of a lint filter. To me that is sort of a neat bit of trivia that such a common pump in the 50s and 60s BDs still had a use until the very end. The two port was used on suds models of all the rest of the machines since they needed the old two-port's ability to reverse flow to send water back into the machine. The old two port was also used on the last BOL belt-drives that had no filters at all. Production of these ended around 1984 I think when the early DDs took over that segment of the model line.
G
Mark -
John may be a better source of info than I am on the solenoid. Three temp solenoids weren't used much past the mid-60s I don't believe on these machines, but I could be off on that a little. If rebuild kits were only discontinued last year, you may want to see if you can find a knowledgeable person at the manufacturer as often they can look in their computers to see where the last ones were shipped. Someone may have it on a shelf somewhere.
You may want to check Sears also, they keep old parts longer than many places, AND you may want to look at the chances of replacing the entire valve assembly. If someone here has a working unit that will fit your machine, that may be the best solution.
GOOD LUCK - you have a really dandy washer there!
Gordon
John may be a better source of info than I am on the solenoid. Three temp solenoids weren't used much past the mid-60s I don't believe on these machines, but I could be off on that a little. If rebuild kits were only discontinued last year, you may want to see if you can find a knowledgeable person at the manufacturer as often they can look in their computers to see where the last ones were shipped. Someone may have it on a shelf somewhere.
You may want to check Sears also, they keep old parts longer than many places, AND you may want to look at the chances of replacing the entire valve assembly. If someone here has a working unit that will fit your machine, that may be the best solution.
GOOD LUCK - you have a really dandy washer there!
Gordon
toploadloyalist
Well-known member
What's the difference between MEDIUM and WARM water?
Largely ...
Warm is the usual mix of tap-hot + tap-cold.
Medium is tap-hot + Warm.
Warm is the usual mix of tap-hot + tap-cold.
Medium is tap-hot + Warm.
Water and oil leaks
This Whirlpool is a great and fun washer, but there's a slight water leak from between the exterior tub and the big base plate, near the filter outlet hose but not from it, damn it. IT's minor, but will need repair.
Worse, see pic, tranny leak. The pic shows the small leak from about 6 loads where the washer is now, and then a larger stain to the left in this pic and on top of that balancing/leveling board, from where it sat for first 15 loads or so. I know it's more than is supposed to be occuring, so I'm looking at a pretty decent job ahead of me. And the leaking fluid is near black, it's time for a rebuild.
I feel it's well worth it on this classic old girl, and I've never yet failed mechanically/automotive/electric/plumbing, so I'll retire the machine for a few weeks and then start tearing into it.
I have an early 70's Whirlpool Kenmore repair guide, it even details this machine's 3-solenoid water valve and the pushbutton timer set-up, but most likely the best help will come from this here AW website. This model may be rare, but WP/KM is common as dirt, thank God, so I'm betting any/all seals/washers/tranny parts are still easily available.
This Whirlpool is a great and fun washer, but there's a slight water leak from between the exterior tub and the big base plate, near the filter outlet hose but not from it, damn it. IT's minor, but will need repair.
Worse, see pic, tranny leak. The pic shows the small leak from about 6 loads where the washer is now, and then a larger stain to the left in this pic and on top of that balancing/leveling board, from where it sat for first 15 loads or so. I know it's more than is supposed to be occuring, so I'm looking at a pretty decent job ahead of me. And the leaking fluid is near black, it's time for a rebuild.
I feel it's well worth it on this classic old girl, and I've never yet failed mechanically/automotive/electric/plumbing, so I'll retire the machine for a few weeks and then start tearing into it.
I have an early 70's Whirlpool Kenmore repair guide, it even details this machine's 3-solenoid water valve and the pushbutton timer set-up, but most likely the best help will come from this here AW website. This model may be rare, but WP/KM is common as dirt, thank God, so I'm betting any/all seals/washers/tranny parts are still easily available.
Delayed Gratification
Even though you have the expertise and support to tear the machine apart there is a small catch in your throat when something that looked so easy is going to require calling in favors, looking for elusive parts and trying to get the grease out of your cuticles before dinner. Let's hope its a seamless textbook repair and you are surgilating your wigwax in record time.
Even though you have the expertise and support to tear the machine apart there is a small catch in your throat when something that looked so easy is going to require calling in favors, looking for elusive parts and trying to get the grease out of your cuticles before dinner. Let's hope its a seamless textbook repair and you are surgilating your wigwax in record time.
Whirlpool Tranny leak
Mixfinder----oh it will be a mess for sure, my boyfriend will gripe, but he'll also help with the paint job and detailing, that's his expertise. And he already advised me on how to paint those raised lettering and symbols on the console glass, once everything else is done. Despite thinking I'm a fool, he is impressed that my name MARK is right there in the glass.
The tranny leak seems to come entirely from the uppermost seal on the mian drive pulley shaft, right under the main pulley, then drips down all over the place.
2 offbeat questions---What program do some of you folks use to mark up jpegs in here?
Also, sometimes you embed a short video right inside these threads, instead of a link to YouTube. How do you do that?
Spray rinse-----When I was working on the water valve, I noticed that 2/3 of the spray goes into the outer tub, giving pretty poor results for the spray rinse.
Mixfinder----oh it will be a mess for sure, my boyfriend will gripe, but he'll also help with the paint job and detailing, that's his expertise. And he already advised me on how to paint those raised lettering and symbols on the console glass, once everything else is done. Despite thinking I'm a fool, he is impressed that my name MARK is right there in the glass.
The tranny leak seems to come entirely from the uppermost seal on the mian drive pulley shaft, right under the main pulley, then drips down all over the place.
2 offbeat questions---What program do some of you folks use to mark up jpegs in here?
Also, sometimes you embed a short video right inside these threads, instead of a link to YouTube. How do you do that?
Spray rinse-----When I was working on the water valve, I noticed that 2/3 of the spray goes into the outer tub, giving pretty poor results for the spray rinse.
fixed it
So I cut a small piece from a lid from a Glad food storage lid and screwed it down under the airgap/inlet hose.
Now all water goes into ineer tub, everything during spray rinse hits the clothes, not the outer tub
So I cut a small piece from a lid from a Glad food storage lid and screwed it down under the airgap/inlet hose.
Now all water goes into ineer tub, everything during spray rinse hits the clothes, not the outer tub
last one
here it is, works for me, helps the rinsing.
After a total of about 2 dozen loads of clothes, I'm impressed with turnover and rinsing and overall abilities of this small tub old machine. Early on, I adjusted the water level to within an inch of the tub lid flange, I'm getting great turnover on even a few overloaded batches. The bleach dispenser works, the fabric softener too, but then of course it sprays most of that out with the final spin-rinse.
The "cool-down" cycles are sort of dumb compared to my 70's Maytag and GE. On this machine, there's no additional agitation as the cool water comes in. First---Half drain, then refill, then immediate half drain again, refill, I think it goes 3 times, then finally does some agitation. On the other hand, I really couldn't care less about cooldown cycles, I think they are a waste of water and time personally. But on the GE, there's agitation after the partial fills, so I sometimes use that cycle as an extra deluxe super rinse feature. This Whirlpool does have an extra rinse, 11th button, comes in handy.
Anyhows, great agitation, rock solid performance on spin and spray rinse and I love the looks and the pushbuttons, so this will be my first major repair job, it's time to learn and this one is worth it. Minor interior rust, I've seen and fixed LOTS worse.
here it is, works for me, helps the rinsing.
After a total of about 2 dozen loads of clothes, I'm impressed with turnover and rinsing and overall abilities of this small tub old machine. Early on, I adjusted the water level to within an inch of the tub lid flange, I'm getting great turnover on even a few overloaded batches. The bleach dispenser works, the fabric softener too, but then of course it sprays most of that out with the final spin-rinse.
The "cool-down" cycles are sort of dumb compared to my 70's Maytag and GE. On this machine, there's no additional agitation as the cool water comes in. First---Half drain, then refill, then immediate half drain again, refill, I think it goes 3 times, then finally does some agitation. On the other hand, I really couldn't care less about cooldown cycles, I think they are a waste of water and time personally. But on the GE, there's agitation after the partial fills, so I sometimes use that cycle as an extra deluxe super rinse feature. This Whirlpool does have an extra rinse, 11th button, comes in handy.
Anyhows, great agitation, rock solid performance on spin and spray rinse and I love the looks and the pushbuttons, so this will be my first major repair job, it's time to learn and this one is worth it. Minor interior rust, I've seen and fixed LOTS worse.
Mark -
That's an ingenious method to divert spray water into the basket!!! I love it!!! It has always bugged me that much of the spray doesn't hit the clothes. I concluded however that since WP never changed this, it must accomplish something. The spray soaks the side of the basket, and it helps in lint and suds removal, and helps flush suds out of the outer tub when a suds lock is in progress. With today's low sudsing detergents, all that is probably not important.
Regarding the oil leak - it looks like the oil in your machine is becoming (or did a long time ago) contaminated. MANY belt drives, if not all of them, will drip a little bit of transmission oil with use. As a kid, I always expected to clean this up with our machines whenever we moved them. That said, the oil is normally golden yellow in color. When it gets cola brown or worse, it usually means that water is mixing with the oil and causing parts inside to rust and contaminate the oil. They don't leak at the volume you're seeing however.
I used to think that a flooded transmission wasn't possible in the old centerpost machines where the centerpost itself is nearly as tall as the full-basket water line. But, I know now that it is possible, it just takes longer to happen as seals degrade in the centerpost that trap air under the agitator instead of water at a low point in the centerpost.
Newer machines with short centerposts can have this same transmission flooding occur, but much sooner in their lives than their older counterparts did. In your machine's case, I would think the seals are very dried, and probably not very effective. Raising the water level will worsen this problem a lot. If your seals are bad and are not trapping any air under the agitator, then a super-high water level will present water right to the bearing and agitator shaft. The eventual result is a flooded transmission.
Most of the time I have found oil to come out of the transmission at the agitator shaft, not the drive pulley shaft, but I can see how this could happen if it's worn.
Some here will say that a flooded transmission is probably not usable again in a rebuilt condition, but I have one that was ugly with oil & water in 1995 that I cleaned and rebuilt. I have added at least 1,000 loads to it's "clock" since then with only normal operation from it. If you take apart your gearcase, drain off the old bilge oil, put the parts through a parts washer flush, and re-assemble it all with the right oil and a new cover seal, you'll be fine, especially with the limited use we AW.orgers tend to put on vintage machines.
Good luck with that, let us know if you need any help.
Gordon
That's an ingenious method to divert spray water into the basket!!! I love it!!! It has always bugged me that much of the spray doesn't hit the clothes. I concluded however that since WP never changed this, it must accomplish something. The spray soaks the side of the basket, and it helps in lint and suds removal, and helps flush suds out of the outer tub when a suds lock is in progress. With today's low sudsing detergents, all that is probably not important.
Regarding the oil leak - it looks like the oil in your machine is becoming (or did a long time ago) contaminated. MANY belt drives, if not all of them, will drip a little bit of transmission oil with use. As a kid, I always expected to clean this up with our machines whenever we moved them. That said, the oil is normally golden yellow in color. When it gets cola brown or worse, it usually means that water is mixing with the oil and causing parts inside to rust and contaminate the oil. They don't leak at the volume you're seeing however.
I used to think that a flooded transmission wasn't possible in the old centerpost machines where the centerpost itself is nearly as tall as the full-basket water line. But, I know now that it is possible, it just takes longer to happen as seals degrade in the centerpost that trap air under the agitator instead of water at a low point in the centerpost.
Newer machines with short centerposts can have this same transmission flooding occur, but much sooner in their lives than their older counterparts did. In your machine's case, I would think the seals are very dried, and probably not very effective. Raising the water level will worsen this problem a lot. If your seals are bad and are not trapping any air under the agitator, then a super-high water level will present water right to the bearing and agitator shaft. The eventual result is a flooded transmission.
Most of the time I have found oil to come out of the transmission at the agitator shaft, not the drive pulley shaft, but I can see how this could happen if it's worn.
Some here will say that a flooded transmission is probably not usable again in a rebuilt condition, but I have one that was ugly with oil & water in 1995 that I cleaned and rebuilt. I have added at least 1,000 loads to it's "clock" since then with only normal operation from it. If you take apart your gearcase, drain off the old bilge oil, put the parts through a parts washer flush, and re-assemble it all with the right oil and a new cover seal, you'll be fine, especially with the limited use we AW.orgers tend to put on vintage machines.
Good luck with that, let us know if you need any help.
Gordon
washerlover
Well-known member
Yeah, I agree with the Whirlpool "cool down" cycle...my '66 washer just fills, then drains, no agitation -- like watching paint dry. I like my '64 Kenmore; at least it agitates during the partial fill/drain cycle.
agitate during partial fill/cool-down
To the best of my knoowledge, that was a feature exclusive to the Kenmore brand. Initially, even Kenmores didn't do that. They just refilled and drained several times and the 1959 or 1960 model 70 my best friend in high school's mom had, I don't think it agitated at all. When I moved into the dorm my freshman year in fall 1973, the laundry room on my floor had the typical Maytag avocado greene machines with the 6 cycle selector knob. It's cooldown was I think one fill and did not agitate, just went right into spin. Didn't move the warm water around from the side where it had filled.
To the best of my knoowledge, that was a feature exclusive to the Kenmore brand. Initially, even Kenmores didn't do that. They just refilled and drained several times and the 1959 or 1960 model 70 my best friend in high school's mom had, I don't think it agitated at all. When I moved into the dorm my freshman year in fall 1973, the laundry room on my floor had the typical Maytag avocado greene machines with the 6 cycle selector knob. It's cooldown was I think one fill and did not agitate, just went right into spin. Didn't move the warm water around from the side where it had filled.
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