Roofing help?

[perc-o-prince]

OK, it's home improvement time again!

We're having the roof replaced, and the chimney repointed. So far, we've received two estimates, a third company is coming in Monday, and we may have another come in next week. Both are using GAF materials.

The first guy (superiorroofingofnewengland.com) went up on the roof, measured everything, went back to the truck, entered the data into the computer, and provided us with a printed, professional estimate. It starts off that they HAND NAIL (in caps) all materials. They use 6' of ice shield along the eaves and 3' on all rakes and valleys. They include up to 100 sq ft of plywood or 100' of board if needed. 20 yr warranty (100%) and pro-rated for an additional 10. Estimated at 30 square. Does not include repointing the chimney or lead flashing. $13,000 + $1800 for the flat, rolled roof section above the back screen porch. A mason they've worked with before took a look at the chimney and gave an estimate of $1750 for repointing, sealing and flashing. Total = $16,550 ($14,750 w/o rolled roof section).

The second guy (priorityroofingandpaving.com) measured the roof from the ground with a helper, Went back to the truck, and presented a pre-printed form with check boxes ticked and notes made. They use 9' of ice shield all around, include 50' of board, plywood replaced at $150/square (estimated we'd need 4 square), hurricane nailing (6 nails/shingle), new flashing and repoint chimney, 10yr labor and same 30yr on shingles (upgrade to 30/30 for $89 more), estimated at 25 square.... $8125 + $600 for plywood replacement, not including the rolled-roof section and aprox $1000 for the rolled section (using 06 rubber). $9725 total. I say aprox $1000 because I forgot to ask him about it when he was here. He was going to come out to measure it Monday, but I offered to measure it to get a close estimate. He'll provide a written before starting work.

WTF!!! A difference of $6825, not including the $89 for the 30/30 warranty w/ the second company!!!

I'm not seeing red flags with either guy. The first was more professional, and the second was a big "goombah" type that kept calling me "sir" (not in THAT way, Ron!!!), and I know his 6-year-old daughter just had her tonsils and adenoids out yesterday because he asked to re-schedule from 5pm yesterday to 11 this morning. He did mention that he appreciated being able to be with his daughter, and would "take care of me." The second one also promised to meet any other proposal, apples-to-apples.

The third estimate should show me if Superior is just too high, or if Priority is low-balling for some reason. I'm also getting a referral from a teacher I know in town since her husband is an engineer who also builds houses.

Anyone see something I'm missing? For example, how much better is hand-nailing to hurricane nailing with a gun? I asked the guy from Priority, and he told me that 6-nail hurricane nailing is just as secure as hand-nailing, and will withstand 110mph winds.

Chuck

 

[panthera]

Chuck,

Properly done, both methods are acceptable in the area my folks live - every year they have 100mph winds with gusts higher and tornadoes just down the street (literally).
Either method can fail if not done right.

The more important question, since you're asking, is, how will that warranty be honored, let's say five or ten years down the road? Who does their warranty work for them? Who insures them?

Who provides the assurance so that if their firm does go belly-up, the warranty will be underwritten?

Those are the questions I think need answering. Personally, I am not overly impressed by someone who is up-to-date on software, I want to see the roofs he did five years ago, ten years ago - will he give me the addresses? Can I talk to the current owners? What do they have to say?

I'm sure folks with more direct experience will chime in as the day wears on - but that's my tip. Check his past work, check who'll cover you if you need warranty work.

 

[perc-o-prince]

The 20 year warranty is provided by GAF, so if the local I use goes out, GAF finds another one to do the warranty work. I checked but forgot to mention.

Second person gave a sheet with 7 references (jobs) done w/in about 20 miles.

Thanks, Keven,
Chuck

 

[hydralique]

Most roofing is like painting: it isn't too hard to put on, but the initial preparation is what makes the difference between a mediocre job and a great job. Ice and Water Shield is a good product, but it's full of chemical compounds like adhesives that will age and eventually cause failure. It should be used in conjunction with quality sheetmetal flashing at critical places like valleys, vent stacks, flues, and transitions. You should ask each company to go up on the roof and inspect your existing sheetmetal so you won't have an extra charge when some of it proves to be either 1) unserviceable, or 2) some odd custom profile that can't be bought off the shelf. Not all job conditions can be anticipated, so extras should be expected when the old roof is torn off, but you shouldn't get them for conditions that can be easily seen. Discuss your gutters too, as they can be damaged during re-roofing.

Pay special attention as well to the transition from your main roof to your low-slope membrane roof. When rooms are added on to an existing structure and a low-slope roof is used in lieu of opening up the main roof and extending it, the transition to the low slope is often poorly done and prone to leaks. Does the 20/30 year warranty cover the low-slope membrane, or just the main roof? That's a long warranty for a low-slope roof.

 

[maytagbear]

Have you checked

with your regional Better Business Bureau? Or Angie's List?

Lawrence/Maytagbear

 

[sudsmaster]

I would second that you should ask for customer references, and then contact several such references for each bidder.

I would also ask they they use 40 year shingles instead of 20 or 32 year. They are thicker and in the case of 40 year, from what I've seen at HD (which sells GAF, as I recall), the 40 year has an extra layer that gives it a profile.

What about the gutters? If they need replacing, the time to do it would probably be when the roof is replaced.

And then there is roof ventilation. Is it adequate today? Is there ridge venting coupled with soffit venting (the best combination)? Are the flashings around all the penetrations (at least one for every plumbing fixture down below) in good shepe?

 

[animasinsulinpu]

My roof

A year ago I had my roof replaced. This house is 27 yrs. old. The strange thing they did was after the old shingles were off, they put down aluminum sheets down before putting the new shingles on.....Bill in Az....

 

[sudsmaster]

I hope they put down felt, too...

A friend who used to run his own roofing business told me once that the shingles are not what keeps the water out. It's the felt underneath. The shingles are there to protect the felt from the sun and other insults. I would imagine the aluminum sheeting went over the felt, to help reflect heat away from it.

Heat being a major factor that shortens composite roof life.

If and when I re-roof, I will specify 30 lb felt instead of the standard 15 lb version, as well as 40 year shingles. I have thought that I could also do it myself, but after seeing someone re-roof my neighbors' homes, I'd probably hire it out. I do want to go up there between the tear-off and re-shingling to enlarge the soffit venting, which I can't get to readily with the roof intact.

If I win the lottery the next roof will be stainless steel. lol..

 

[whirlaway]

New Roof

I had mine replaced last year,they removed 3 layers.The is a good size Dutch Colonial built in 38,it was 6,000 which was a great price.They used GAF 40year shingles.The roofer said you can bet on thirty good years.He told me always get the highest number of years you can get.By the way it was my brother-in-laws brother,and he has been doing this for 30 years and has reroofed half of the neighborhood thru the years.Good Luck.Bobby

 

[sudsmaster]

Three layers is the maximum allowed on a roof. Your roofers had no choice.

The roof on this house is heavy cedar shake, and it's about 27 years old now. I've replaced a few of the shakes myself with some extras I found in the garage. It's not difficult, although I can see that sooner or later I'll have to have it all re-roofed. I've pretty much decided the new roof will not be wood, due to the fire issue, but the shake roof probably does keep the attic cooler and I'm told its one of the best types of roofs you can get in terms of keeping the water out. Plus, wood roofing is much more expensive these days than composite shingle.

 

[hydralique]

Sealing vs. Shedding

Once a roof slope is steeper than 3/12, the assumption is that a properly installed shingle roof will protect the house by allowing rainwater to run off quickly enough that it is unlikely to penentrate inside. Below 3/12, many building codes mandate that the roof be treated as a low-slope roof with a membrane that actually seals the roof. In this case, if there are shingles or tiles, they are used to protect and hold down the membrane. This can work surprisingly well: some years ago I watched a fine old pre-war California Mediterranean home with a tile 2/12 roof being redone. When the tiles were removed the nearly 70 year old asphaltic felt membrane was in surprisingly good shape. A new membrane was installed, and the old tiles were replaced, complete with copper wire stays.

Traditional wood shingle roofs were often installed without felts over spaced sheathing, not plywood. Spaced sheathing is generally longitudinal 1x4s placed on the rafters so that one row of shingles is nailed into each 1x4. This method had two advantages: firstly it saved on sheathing amount since only a little over half the roof area is actually sheathed, and secondly it is hard for water to become trapped between the shingles and sheathing because any water droplets that penetrate can run only the width of the 1x4 before they dissapate or drop into the attic, generally harmlessly. Attic ventilation is enhanced because air can flow through gaps under the shingles and into the attic. This system works best at slopes of 4/12 and above since below that slope a driving rain can force enough water into the attic to cause a leak. Once asphalt shingles became the industry standard and plywood was commonly and cheaply available the use of spaced sheathing became obsolete. With continuous plywood sheathing, if any water gets blown under the shingles it becomes trapped between the shingles and plywood, but the felts prevent any damage to the plywood. Plywood has many advantages over spaced sheathing, including vastly superior structural characteristics and quicker installation. The use of plywood is also why having plenty of ventilation inlets and outlets is more critical than it was in the days of wood shingles, spaced sheathing, and no felts.

 

[hydralique]

Sudsmaster . . .

Is it even legal to install an entirely new wood shake or shingle roof in San Francisco? It's not here in LA, although there may be some exceptions to shakes treated with fire retardants. I know of a lovely pre-war Tudor in Hancock Park where the owner has 10% of the shake roof replaced each year as normal maintenance, since this is the maximum allowed by the City. That way they get a new roof every ten years and can keep the shakes in perpetuity. Normally keeping the shakes would cause higher insurance rates, but the homeowner owns an insurance company so he's pretty much covered there as well.

 

[whirlaway]

Roofing

I knew 3 layers was too much,actually 2 is quite heavy,Ive noticed lately many folks around here are having only 1 layer.My house has wood planking,but I wanted a green roof and boy did the temp go up on the second and third floors.I had white as an outer layer before. We have such a terrible time with white shingles getting mold on them and I dont even have trees around the house.

 

[perc-o-prince]

<sheetmetal flashing>

I don't know if there's any there even now! I'll have to check. I do know that all the flanges on vent pipes are being replaced and new 8" drip edge all around.

<Discuss your gutters too, as they can be damaged during re-roofing.>
<What about the gutters? If they need replacing, the time to do it would probably be when the roof is replaced.>

They weren't discussed, but I'll make sure any damage caused is taken care of (in the contract). Both firms are also going to clean the gutters while they're up there. They're in good shape, so they don't need replaing.

<Pay special attention as well to the transition from your main roof to your low-slope membrane roof>

There isn't a transition. The low-slope roof meets the house/siding and they'll run under the siding. There aren't any transitions at all, luckily, but a few valleys. I'll have to check the warranty on the membrane, but he said it should last as long as the regular roof.

<Have you checked with your regional Better Business Bureau? Or Angie's List?>

Both firms are OK with the BBB. Haven't paid to join Angie's List.

<And then there is roof ventilation...>

New ridge venting will be installed, and there is already soffit venting from when the house was sided.

<If and when I re-roof, I will specify 30 lb felt instead of the standard 15 lb version>

30# is specified with Priority, and GAF Shinglemate High Performance fiberglass reinforced felt is specified with Superior).

<He told me always get the highest number of years you can get>

I'll have to ask about the cost difference for upgrading the shingles. They do have 40yr as well as lifetime limited warranty. However, if the ice and water shield degrades as hydralique said, it's not really important as we need ice dam protection.

Thanks for the help and suggestions!

Chuck

 

[perc-o-prince]

Odd- I pasted comments from previous emails above each of my sentences in the above reply, but they didn't show up! Each separated line was preceded by a comment from a previous post, so please use your imagination.

Chuck

 

[sudsmaster]

I don't know if a wood roof is banned in my city (east of SF, not SF itself). I don't think it is, but for a bit when I was shopping for homeowners insurance a number of companies said they wouldn't insure a home with a wood roof. When I switched companies last year, though, it wasn't an issue. The only issue is that they wanted to charge higher rates for the wood roof until I told them that if it needed to be replaced I would opt for a composite shingle roof. The cost of that is lower, apparently.

The current roof is installed with felt, over spaced sheeting. There was an instruction paper with the bundle of spare shingles. It discussed the proper way of using felt with wood shakes and spaced sheeting. Basically the felt is supposed to be interleaved with the shingles, to provide for greater air circulation. It's difficult to describe but it is different than simply laying down the felt all at once and then laying down the shingles on top. The lowest course of felt would be installed, and then a course of shingles over that. Then the next course of felt installed, with the bottom hem of it over the top most run of the shingles. And so on. I've never been able to determine if that's how this roof is done, but it's lasted a good 27 years so they must have done something right.

When the roof is redone, all the wood shingles will be removed (not a good idea to try to put asphalt shingles over wood shingles). Then I'll have 1/2" plywood (just say no to OSB) nailed on top of the existing spaced sheeting. On top of that, the 30# felt and then the 40yr shingles. Will probably have the gutters replaced at the same time. The ones up there are galvanized steel and probably due for replacement; although they aren't leaking yet.

 

[mattl]

I wouldn't worry about the ice and water shield breaking down, the stuff is pretty durable. Are you stripping the roof? If not you need to derate the life of the roof by 10 years. Also if you don't strip the roof it will not have that "crisp" look when it's done, any waves and dips will telegraph through. As you can see I'm a big fan of removing the old stuff.

Differing area of the country have different standards. Here in MI 2 layers is the max, mostly due to show load, and other than decorative copper valleys they are all done with I&W shield and most are woven, few are cut anymore.

I've done a number of roofs over the years and it's pretty quick and simple if the roof is straight, but it can get tricky with reverses and steep pitches.

 

[panthera]

Maybe this has already come up

but in case it hasn't, two considerations:

1) There may already be or soon will be funding in your area for solar-energy based solutions. You might get a much better price, do the environment and your pocket-book some long-term good and have the entire roof job subsidized to some extent. I'd definitely check into it.

2) Insulation - when a roof is being done, it's (relatively) easy to improve passive energy components of the house through the selection of materials and techniques used. Again, cheaper and, at least in much of the Rocky Mountain West, partly subsidized - in my parents' case, the local power company gave them a 20 year, 0% "loan" which amounted to $10/month for all sorts of minor and major materials and techniques selection...their roof went from R-40 to R-60 and that, back then, was a big, big jump. It cut their bills so much that even with the $10 extra, they still saved money every month.

Twenty-five years down the road, their roof is coming up on its EOL, so I'm following this thread with interest.

 

[sudsmaster]

There's been substantial subsidies for residential solar power - up to 50% - here, but I don't recall seeing anything about subsidizing roofing. There have been subsidies for adding insulation to the attic, however. But these come and go... I had already boosted the insulation in my attic from zero to R40+ when I got a mailing from PG+E about the subsidy... I was able to get only a partial rebate due to the purchase dates of the materials. But I did save substantially on my gas bills, which was the point anyway.

Solar is another reason for going to composite shingles. I figure it will be much easier to install solar panels on a asphalt shingle roof than on a wood roof. While there are photovoltaic roof shingles in development or even on the market by now, the advice I've gotten is to avoid them... too costly to do a simple roofing repair with electrified shingles.

 

[hydralique]

I am amazed by all the publicity regarding installation of photovoltaic solar panels on roofs which omit even the slightest mention of providing proper support and flashing for the panels. They may not weight a lot, but they will be loaded by wind and need to transfer this load to the roof. Additionally, they're not intrinsically strong and will need either frequent supports or an armature of sorts. I wouldn't install anything like this on an older roof without consulting an engineer just to ensure there are no issues. Modern roofs tend to be pretty strong, but I've seen lots of older roofs with 2 x 6 joists over fairly long spans. Today they are rarely less than 2 x 10, partly because it is easier to properly insulate the roof with deeper joists. Proper flashing for any solar installation is a must as well, particularly for supports which will be covered by the panels themselves as any leaks there will require panel removal. It's a great idea, but not one that can be implemented without some thought and some coordination between several trades: framers, roofers, sheetmetal subs, and engineers (both electrical and structural).

 

[abcomatic]

Perc- ask many questions

Hi Perc, I had to replace the roof on my 1897 house a few years back. Make SURE they put metal flashing around the chimney. If you have any weird angles or separate roofs, they should use metal flashing along where the roof meets up with any part of the siding. Don't let them talk you into putting roofing cement instead of flashing along those areas if you have any. What a mess I had when there was heavy rain.
If you have any questions, just let me know. Have fun. Gary

 

[sudsmaster]

Hydra,

Well, I guess I have one of those older homes. The ceiling joists are 2x4's, spaced 16" OC. The rafters are also 2x4's, spaced 24"OC. However, the roof is a cross hipped design, which I gather lends extra strength to the design. There's no sign of sagging of the roof, but on the other hand shake roofs tend to be a bit lighter than composite shingles (except for that the wood probably gains a fair amount of weight when it rains). It also doesn't feel particularly springy when I walk on it, although I'm mindful not to be doing calisthenics up there. There is extra truss bracing underneath. Nothing like an engineered trusswork, just some boards tacked up here and there to join the rafters horizontally halfway up the roof. The width of the roof parallel to the rafters is a maximum of about 30', which probably is less than that of some grander homes and allows for the lighter raftering.

I suppose I should check on whether or not adding plywood sheeting up on top in order to support composite shingles would create any new problems. But I suppose it might help to strengthen the roof. I wouldn't want to have a new roof put on only to have the supporting structure fail.

 

[hydralique]

Suds . . .

I doubt that you'll have a problem since there is no unusual sagging or springiness at present. Remember that properly nailed plywood adds a diaphram action to the roof and will spread any point loads around (such as someone walking on the roof); it's way stronger than the spaced sheathing. The bracing can help a lot as well, and if you think there might be an issue on a longer span then some bracing can be added.

One big reason modern roofs are commonly made of 2 x 10s is because it's much easier to properly insulate the deeper joists, not because they're generally needed for strictly structural reasons on most roofs. My comment on the solar panels mainly has to do with wind loading which can be significant if the panels are in an area of high winds - I wouldn't do that with a 2 x4 or 2 x 6 structure. You're not adding to the wind load, and the extra roofing weight shouldn't be that great either.

 

[sudsmaster]

Just to make sure we're clear on terminology:

The lumber that runs directly under the roof at the roof's pitch is called the rafters.

The lumber that runs horizontally, making up the ceiling of the floor below and the floor of the attic, is called the joists.

Are you saying the rafters are 2x10, or the joists, or both?

 

[bethann]

This is what we do for a living. Every state is different in their codes.
First thing that I notice that's odd.

Decking should be contingent in a bid. Until it's torn off there is no way of knowing what needs to be replaced.
Most definitely use 30lb felt.
The manufacturer of the shingle should be your choice.
There is nothing wrong with using a nailing gun. The only time we use cap nails is for felt.
What's the pitch of the roof ? That has a lot to do with the price. If it's below 4/12 that's one price, as the pitch goes up so does the price.
Cleaning out the gutters and all the debris from the premises is just a givin.

The most important thing is the workmanship guarantee. If the roof is installed and the installer didn't follow the specs of the manufacturer then that voids the product warranty. From what I read, neither is giving you a workmanship guarantee. If your roof leaks next year it's probably not the manufacturer fault, it's the installers. If you don't have the workmanship guarantee your screwed.

The price for tucking the and flashing the chimney is to high. It can be done in a day. Unless your chimney is coming from the ground and extremely tall requiring scaffolding.

Just because the salesman shows up looking professional, acting professional doesn't mean squat. Their not doing the work.

For 30 sq. of roofing.... to high. Keep checking around. Don't show them your other bids.
With a 30yr shingle there is no reason to use lead around the pipes. Rubber boots are fine. They will hold up as long as the shingle.
Don't let them over sell you on water & ice.

Guess I'll shut up now!

Hope this helps.

 

[veg-o-matic]

Listen to Bethann

She's definitely the expert!

veg

 

[hydralique]

Oops . . .

I wrote that one in a hurry. Yes the rafters are the sloped members, while those that make up the ceiling are ceiling joists. Ceiling joists are generally sized on span and may vary from 2 x 6 to 2 x 12. On longer spans for both rafters and ceiling joists the limitation on sizing is generally the tendendcy of the joists or rafters to sag. They'll do this long before failure but it looks bad, particularly on the ceiling, so the structural engineer will up the size a notch to prevent sag. As I noted above rafters on shorter spans are often oversized to allow better insulation to be installed.

 

[perc-o-prince]

Thanks all for the help so far! Just got the 3rd estimate today- higher than the first! Estimated 35 square, can't start until about the end of June... $16,550 not including repointing the rest of the chimney, just doing the part they need to for renewing the flashing. And, he said the back shed of the main section looks 'close' to 3/12, probably shy, and gave the quote for shingles, then for that section in rolled... almost $3k more for doing that section rolled instead of shingling. And, double the high so far for the area over the screen porch that needs rolled ($3800).

Bethann-
Superior included 100' of board. Priority didn't, and neither did today's (Bob Rogers Roofing). I believe the roof is board and not plywood, so I need to find out the cost from Priority.

30# felt is specified w/ Priority.

All 3 use GAF/ELK so far and are certified installers.

Workmanship guarantee? IIRC, Priority is 10 years. However, I can bump that to 30 years for $89. That also bumps the mfg warranty on the shingles from 20 full + 10 pro-rated, to 30 full.

So far (I need to get a couple more estimates, obviously), Priority looks good at $8125, + aprox $1000 for screen porch rolled roof, + $89 to upgrade warranty, + cost of board (need to find out because I know some needs replacing). Does that sound in-line, Bethann???

Chuck

 

[perc-o-prince]

I also need to see if I can upgrade to 40- or 50-year shingles! Rogers estimate includes estimates for those as well- $1140 more for 40-year, and $2135 more for 50-year.

Chuck

 

[bethann]

Chuck,

Let's start all over.

Is this a insurance job?

How many layers are on the roof now?

If it's one, are they three tabs ? And are they curling or do they break when you walk on them ?

What is the pitch of the roof with shingles?

Can you attach a picture ?

I will try and help you as much as I can ,but I need more info.