I am amazed by all the publicity regarding installation of photovoltaic solar panels on roofs which omit even the slightest mention of providing proper support and flashing for the panels. They may not weight a lot, but they will be loaded by wind and need to transfer this load to the roof. Additionally, they're not intrinsically strong and will need either frequent supports or an armature of sorts. I wouldn't install anything like this on an older roof without consulting an engineer just to ensure there are no issues. Modern roofs tend to be pretty strong, but I've seen lots of older roofs with 2 x 6 joists over fairly long spans. Today they are rarely less than 2 x 10, partly because it is easier to properly insulate the roof with deeper joists. Proper flashing for any solar installation is a must as well, particularly for supports which will be covered by the panels themselves as any leaks there will require panel removal. It's a great idea, but not one that can be implemented without some thought and some coordination between several trades: framers, roofers, sheetmetal subs, and engineers (both electrical and structural).
Roofing help?
- Thread starter perc-o-prince
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Perc- ask many questions
Hi Perc, I had to replace the roof on my 1897 house a few years back. Make SURE they put metal flashing around the chimney. If you have any weird angles or separate roofs, they should use metal flashing along where the roof meets up with any part of the siding. Don't let them talk you into putting roofing cement instead of flashing along those areas if you have any. What a mess I had when there was heavy rain.
If you have any questions, just let me know. Have fun. Gary
Hi Perc, I had to replace the roof on my 1897 house a few years back. Make SURE they put metal flashing around the chimney. If you have any weird angles or separate roofs, they should use metal flashing along where the roof meets up with any part of the siding. Don't let them talk you into putting roofing cement instead of flashing along those areas if you have any. What a mess I had when there was heavy rain.
If you have any questions, just let me know. Have fun. Gary
Hydra,
Well, I guess I have one of those older homes. The ceiling joists are 2x4's, spaced 16" OC. The rafters are also 2x4's, spaced 24"OC. However, the roof is a cross hipped design, which I gather lends extra strength to the design. There's no sign of sagging of the roof, but on the other hand shake roofs tend to be a bit lighter than composite shingles (except for that the wood probably gains a fair amount of weight when it rains). It also doesn't feel particularly springy when I walk on it, although I'm mindful not to be doing calisthenics up there. There is extra truss bracing underneath. Nothing like an engineered trusswork, just some boards tacked up here and there to join the rafters horizontally halfway up the roof. The width of the roof parallel to the rafters is a maximum of about 30', which probably is less than that of some grander homes and allows for the lighter raftering.
I suppose I should check on whether or not adding plywood sheeting up on top in order to support composite shingles would create any new problems. But I suppose it might help to strengthen the roof. I wouldn't want to have a new roof put on only to have the supporting structure fail.
Well, I guess I have one of those older homes. The ceiling joists are 2x4's, spaced 16" OC. The rafters are also 2x4's, spaced 24"OC. However, the roof is a cross hipped design, which I gather lends extra strength to the design. There's no sign of sagging of the roof, but on the other hand shake roofs tend to be a bit lighter than composite shingles (except for that the wood probably gains a fair amount of weight when it rains). It also doesn't feel particularly springy when I walk on it, although I'm mindful not to be doing calisthenics up there. There is extra truss bracing underneath. Nothing like an engineered trusswork, just some boards tacked up here and there to join the rafters horizontally halfway up the roof. The width of the roof parallel to the rafters is a maximum of about 30', which probably is less than that of some grander homes and allows for the lighter raftering.
I suppose I should check on whether or not adding plywood sheeting up on top in order to support composite shingles would create any new problems. But I suppose it might help to strengthen the roof. I wouldn't want to have a new roof put on only to have the supporting structure fail.
Suds . . .
I doubt that you'll have a problem since there is no unusual sagging or springiness at present. Remember that properly nailed plywood adds a diaphram action to the roof and will spread any point loads around (such as someone walking on the roof); it's way stronger than the spaced sheathing. The bracing can help a lot as well, and if you think there might be an issue on a longer span then some bracing can be added.
One big reason modern roofs are commonly made of 2 x 10s is because it's much easier to properly insulate the deeper joists, not because they're generally needed for strictly structural reasons on most roofs. My comment on the solar panels mainly has to do with wind loading which can be significant if the panels are in an area of high winds - I wouldn't do that with a 2 x4 or 2 x 6 structure. You're not adding to the wind load, and the extra roofing weight shouldn't be that great either.
I doubt that you'll have a problem since there is no unusual sagging or springiness at present. Remember that properly nailed plywood adds a diaphram action to the roof and will spread any point loads around (such as someone walking on the roof); it's way stronger than the spaced sheathing. The bracing can help a lot as well, and if you think there might be an issue on a longer span then some bracing can be added.
One big reason modern roofs are commonly made of 2 x 10s is because it's much easier to properly insulate the deeper joists, not because they're generally needed for strictly structural reasons on most roofs. My comment on the solar panels mainly has to do with wind loading which can be significant if the panels are in an area of high winds - I wouldn't do that with a 2 x4 or 2 x 6 structure. You're not adding to the wind load, and the extra roofing weight shouldn't be that great either.
Just to make sure we're clear on terminology:
The lumber that runs directly under the roof at the roof's pitch is called the rafters.
The lumber that runs horizontally, making up the ceiling of the floor below and the floor of the attic, is called the joists.
Are you saying the rafters are 2x10, or the joists, or both?
The lumber that runs directly under the roof at the roof's pitch is called the rafters.
The lumber that runs horizontally, making up the ceiling of the floor below and the floor of the attic, is called the joists.
Are you saying the rafters are 2x10, or the joists, or both?
bethann
New member
This is what we do for a living. Every state is different in their codes.
First thing that I notice that's odd.
Decking should be contingent in a bid. Until it's torn off there is no way of knowing what needs to be replaced.
Most definitely use 30lb felt.
The manufacturer of the shingle should be your choice.
There is nothing wrong with using a nailing gun. The only time we use cap nails is for felt.
What's the pitch of the roof ? That has a lot to do with the price. If it's below 4/12 that's one price, as the pitch goes up so does the price.
Cleaning out the gutters and all the debris from the premises is just a givin.
The most important thing is the workmanship guarantee. If the roof is installed and the installer didn't follow the specs of the manufacturer then that voids the product warranty. From what I read, neither is giving you a workmanship guarantee. If your roof leaks next year it's probably not the manufacturer fault, it's the installers. If you don't have the workmanship guarantee your screwed.
The price for tucking the and flashing the chimney is to high. It can be done in a day. Unless your chimney is coming from the ground and extremely tall requiring scaffolding.
Just because the salesman shows up looking professional, acting professional doesn't mean squat. Their not doing the work.
For 30 sq. of roofing.... to high. Keep checking around. Don't show them your other bids.
With a 30yr shingle there is no reason to use lead around the pipes. Rubber boots are fine. They will hold up as long as the shingle.
Don't let them over sell you on water & ice.
Guess I'll shut up now!
Hope this helps.
First thing that I notice that's odd.
Decking should be contingent in a bid. Until it's torn off there is no way of knowing what needs to be replaced.
Most definitely use 30lb felt.
The manufacturer of the shingle should be your choice.
There is nothing wrong with using a nailing gun. The only time we use cap nails is for felt.
What's the pitch of the roof ? That has a lot to do with the price. If it's below 4/12 that's one price, as the pitch goes up so does the price.
Cleaning out the gutters and all the debris from the premises is just a givin.
The most important thing is the workmanship guarantee. If the roof is installed and the installer didn't follow the specs of the manufacturer then that voids the product warranty. From what I read, neither is giving you a workmanship guarantee. If your roof leaks next year it's probably not the manufacturer fault, it's the installers. If you don't have the workmanship guarantee your screwed.
The price for tucking the and flashing the chimney is to high. It can be done in a day. Unless your chimney is coming from the ground and extremely tall requiring scaffolding.
Just because the salesman shows up looking professional, acting professional doesn't mean squat. Their not doing the work.
For 30 sq. of roofing.... to high. Keep checking around. Don't show them your other bids.
With a 30yr shingle there is no reason to use lead around the pipes. Rubber boots are fine. They will hold up as long as the shingle.
Don't let them over sell you on water & ice.
Guess I'll shut up now!
Hope this helps.
veg-o-matic
Well-known member
Listen to Bethann
She's definitely the expert!
veg
She's definitely the expert!
veg
Oops . . .
I wrote that one in a hurry. Yes the rafters are the sloped members, while those that make up the ceiling are ceiling joists. Ceiling joists are generally sized on span and may vary from 2 x 6 to 2 x 12. On longer spans for both rafters and ceiling joists the limitation on sizing is generally the tendendcy of the joists or rafters to sag. They'll do this long before failure but it looks bad, particularly on the ceiling, so the structural engineer will up the size a notch to prevent sag. As I noted above rafters on shorter spans are often oversized to allow better insulation to be installed.
I wrote that one in a hurry. Yes the rafters are the sloped members, while those that make up the ceiling are ceiling joists. Ceiling joists are generally sized on span and may vary from 2 x 6 to 2 x 12. On longer spans for both rafters and ceiling joists the limitation on sizing is generally the tendendcy of the joists or rafters to sag. They'll do this long before failure but it looks bad, particularly on the ceiling, so the structural engineer will up the size a notch to prevent sag. As I noted above rafters on shorter spans are often oversized to allow better insulation to be installed.
perc-o-prince
Well-known member
Thanks all for the help so far! Just got the 3rd estimate today- higher than the first! Estimated 35 square, can't start until about the end of June... $16,550 not including repointing the rest of the chimney, just doing the part they need to for renewing the flashing. And, he said the back shed of the main section looks 'close' to 3/12, probably shy, and gave the quote for shingles, then for that section in rolled... almost $3k more for doing that section rolled instead of shingling. And, double the high so far for the area over the screen porch that needs rolled ($3800).
Bethann-
Superior included 100' of board. Priority didn't, and neither did today's (Bob Rogers Roofing). I believe the roof is board and not plywood, so I need to find out the cost from Priority.
30# felt is specified w/ Priority.
All 3 use GAF/ELK so far and are certified installers.
Workmanship guarantee? IIRC, Priority is 10 years. However, I can bump that to 30 years for $89. That also bumps the mfg warranty on the shingles from 20 full + 10 pro-rated, to 30 full.
So far (I need to get a couple more estimates, obviously), Priority looks good at $8125, + aprox $1000 for screen porch rolled roof, + $89 to upgrade warranty, + cost of board (need to find out because I know some needs replacing). Does that sound in-line, Bethann???
Chuck
Bethann-
Superior included 100' of board. Priority didn't, and neither did today's (Bob Rogers Roofing). I believe the roof is board and not plywood, so I need to find out the cost from Priority.
30# felt is specified w/ Priority.
All 3 use GAF/ELK so far and are certified installers.
Workmanship guarantee? IIRC, Priority is 10 years. However, I can bump that to 30 years for $89. That also bumps the mfg warranty on the shingles from 20 full + 10 pro-rated, to 30 full.
So far (I need to get a couple more estimates, obviously), Priority looks good at $8125, + aprox $1000 for screen porch rolled roof, + $89 to upgrade warranty, + cost of board (need to find out because I know some needs replacing). Does that sound in-line, Bethann???
Chuck
perc-o-prince
Well-known member
I also need to see if I can upgrade to 40- or 50-year shingles! Rogers estimate includes estimates for those as well- $1140 more for 40-year, and $2135 more for 50-year.
Chuck
Chuck
bethann
New member
Chuck,
Let's start all over.
Is this a insurance job?
How many layers are on the roof now?
If it's one, are they three tabs ? And are they curling or do they break when you walk on them ?
What is the pitch of the roof with shingles?
Can you attach a picture ?
I will try and help you as much as I can ,but I need more info.
Let's start all over.
Is this a insurance job?
How many layers are on the roof now?
If it's one, are they three tabs ? And are they curling or do they break when you walk on them ?
What is the pitch of the roof with shingles?
Can you attach a picture ?
I will try and help you as much as I can ,but I need more info.
bethann
New member
Just so you know the price on 30yr GAF, Timberline, High Definition shingles are 2862.30. For 35sq. That's not including tax, felt, water & ice, valleys, hip & ridge... and of course labor. And that's even boomed to the roof.
Yeah, here in the Bay Area we are quickly talked out of wood shingles not only due to fire issues but also because wood is so much more expensive than composition.
My $.02: 40 year composition (we got "Presidential" but can't remember the manufacturer) looks way better than 20 or 30 year. IIRC, 30# felt is more the standard. None of our quotes specified anything less.
What I've heard is that the ridge venting system is a joke. My sister had that done and it's not doing an adequate job. Another friend complains of the same thing. Our previous house had "eyebrow" vents that were replaced with the same type and that system worked well.
My mom's place was another story. It was heavy shake and the roofer was a somewhat fly-by-night guy who she preferred to use. A more professional firm gave a higher quote, but they included six eyebrow vents among other things. The guy she used said the attic vents (at the peaks of the stucco, not on the roof) were enough to ventilate. What a joke. With a 40-year comp roof and no actual vents, the attic becomes an oven on just an 80-degree day and the exhaust fan runs well into the night. The roof itself looks nice, it's the "Autumn Blend" that kind of suggests the multi-colored, although darker and muted, look of an old slate roof.
The contractor you use can make all the difference.
Ralph
My $.02: 40 year composition (we got "Presidential" but can't remember the manufacturer) looks way better than 20 or 30 year. IIRC, 30# felt is more the standard. None of our quotes specified anything less.
What I've heard is that the ridge venting system is a joke. My sister had that done and it's not doing an adequate job. Another friend complains of the same thing. Our previous house had "eyebrow" vents that were replaced with the same type and that system worked well.
My mom's place was another story. It was heavy shake and the roofer was a somewhat fly-by-night guy who she preferred to use. A more professional firm gave a higher quote, but they included six eyebrow vents among other things. The guy she used said the attic vents (at the peaks of the stucco, not on the roof) were enough to ventilate. What a joke. With a 40-year comp roof and no actual vents, the attic becomes an oven on just an 80-degree day and the exhaust fan runs well into the night. The roof itself looks nice, it's the "Autumn Blend" that kind of suggests the multi-colored, although darker and muted, look of an old slate roof.
The contractor you use can make all the difference.
Ralph
perk- have you had problems with the close to flat roof on the sunroom? I have a deck with very little pitch and went through a number of rolled roofing replacements. Then about 12 years ago I went with a rubber roof and it's great. I would never use rolled roofing on any roof less than 3/12 pitch from now on.
To be honest all your quotes seem high, but it may be the area you live in. I've only paid labot on one roof on a job I was doing, all the rest of the time it's just a family project - "Hey we're doing a roof on such and such a date" can't beat labor for the price of a few dinners.
Listen to Bethann, she's the pro.
To be honest all your quotes seem high, but it may be the area you live in. I've only paid labot on one roof on a job I was doing, all the rest of the time it's just a family project - "Hey we're doing a roof on such and such a date" can't beat labor for the price of a few dinners.
Listen to Bethann, she's the pro.
toggleswitch2
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5,000
Althought a tremendously long warranty is nice, if the warranty is not transferable to the next owner, it is of less value than one would believe.
Ditto if the firm BEHIND the guaranty goes out-of-business the warranty is of no use.
I paid through the @$$ to go with Home Depot. Turns out it was a great selling point to have a transferrable warranty.
They came the stripped the roof of four layers of roofing tiles/material (2 are the limit in my area) and were in and out in one day. I was at work, but the neighbors say there were workers everywhere like roaches.
In retrospect I could have spent less; and even the neighbors said I was smart to bring in Home Depot rather than their son the roofer struggle with it for, say, a week.
Much luck with your project.
Ditto if the firm BEHIND the guaranty goes out-of-business the warranty is of no use.
I paid through the @$$ to go with Home Depot. Turns out it was a great selling point to have a transferrable warranty.
They came the stripped the roof of four layers of roofing tiles/material (2 are the limit in my area) and were in and out in one day. I was at work, but the neighbors say there were workers everywhere like roaches.
In retrospect I could have spent less; and even the neighbors said I was smart to bring in Home Depot rather than their son the roofer struggle with it for, say, a week.
Much luck with your project.
The flashing on the chimneys not only should be metal, it should be a special type of metal that is not corroded by the alkaline cement/mortar that seals it to the chimney. As I recall, the preferred metal is called Terne plate; it's a lead rich coating that is far more resistant that simply galvanized steel. Another option might be stainless steel if the terne is not available.
Ralph, ridge vents alone would be useless. They must be coupled with soffit vents, and the soffit vents should be on all sides, continuous. In fact, I've read that soffit vents alone can vent a roof, since the prevailing wind will create suction on one side of the roof that will draw air in one soffit side and out the other.
You might want to look into replacing your attic vent with a solar powered model... or adding a solar powered one.
Ralph, ridge vents alone would be useless. They must be coupled with soffit vents, and the soffit vents should be on all sides, continuous. In fact, I've read that soffit vents alone can vent a roof, since the prevailing wind will create suction on one side of the roof that will draw air in one soffit side and out the other.
You might want to look into replacing your attic vent with a solar powered model... or adding a solar powered one.
toggleswitch2
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5,000
My house had a walk-in attic with a window. I simply put a double window-fan in the window blowing in, controlled by a timer. Heat would be pushed out the ridge vent. It was inexpensive to do, inexpesnive to run, and a simple "go-green" option.
perc-o-prince
Well-known member
Is this a insurance job? NO
How many layers are on the roof now? 2
If it's one, are they three tabs ? And are they curling or do they break when you walk on them ? N/A
What is the pitch of the roof with shingles? 76/50/32 (how the hell do I know??!!!). Kidding! Hopefully the pix will help you see that.
Can you attach a picture? 5 coming up.
Reasons for re-roofing:
1) Had ice dams in front of house where there was one about 15 years ago, and a big one in the back that came down from the top back shed all the way to the interior of the downstairs back room (added-on). Want better ice protection.
2) Roof wood (boards) in back, on top shed, spongy.
3) Second layer on most of main roof put on by same ding-a-ling who put the rolled roofing above the screen porch. It had some small gaps that he "sealed" with tar. It leaked from the first year he did it. He also installed the ridge vents (have soffit vents in the vinyl siding).
WAY too much tar around the chimney, which is leaking. Need to have the chimney re-pointed and new flashing put in.
Bethann, let me know if we're thinking the wrong way with this, but we're thinking it would be better to do it all now where there's already evidence of a questionable job on the roof, and we had winter problems we hadn't really had before. One guy looked at some of the main roof and asked why we were having it re-done as the shingles looked pretty good on that part of the roof. That's a second layer, about 10 years old, and the workmanship is in question. We already have an open insurance claim for the interior damage the chimney leak did and we don't want any more top leak problems!
Thanks so much for your help,
Chuck
How many layers are on the roof now? 2
If it's one, are they three tabs ? And are they curling or do they break when you walk on them ? N/A
What is the pitch of the roof with shingles? 76/50/32 (how the hell do I know??!!!). Kidding! Hopefully the pix will help you see that.
Can you attach a picture? 5 coming up.
Reasons for re-roofing:
1) Had ice dams in front of house where there was one about 15 years ago, and a big one in the back that came down from the top back shed all the way to the interior of the downstairs back room (added-on). Want better ice protection.
2) Roof wood (boards) in back, on top shed, spongy.
3) Second layer on most of main roof put on by same ding-a-ling who put the rolled roofing above the screen porch. It had some small gaps that he "sealed" with tar. It leaked from the first year he did it. He also installed the ridge vents (have soffit vents in the vinyl siding).
WAY too much tar around the chimney, which is leaking. Need to have the chimney re-pointed and new flashing put in.
Bethann, let me know if we're thinking the wrong way with this, but we're thinking it would be better to do it all now where there's already evidence of a questionable job on the roof, and we had winter problems we hadn't really had before. One guy looked at some of the main roof and asked why we were having it re-done as the shingles looked pretty good on that part of the roof. That's a second layer, about 10 years old, and the workmanship is in question. We already have an open insurance claim for the interior damage the chimney leak did and we don't want any more top leak problems!
Thanks so much for your help,
Chuck
perc-o-prince
Well-known member
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perc-o-prince
Well-known member
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