Saving old windows and other household greening...

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volvoguy87

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As many of you know, I am a professional historic preservationist but I have a heavy slant toward green, sustainable, and energy efficient practices. I am disturbed by all the window replacement going on.

Yes, new double-pane windows do insulate better than old single-pane windows. Unfortunately, new windows tend to have a lifespan of about 20 years (give or take 5 years in either direction depending on quality). With a respectable storm window, old windows CAN COMPETE with new ones in energy efficiency. Insulating window treatments like heavy drapes or cellular shades can also improve energy efficiency dramatically on any windows.

Advantages of old windows (specifically double hung windows with cords or chains, pulleys, and counterweights) are vast. They are easy and cheap to maintain and repair. They use no proprietary parts. They can outlast new windows by decades (the windows on my house are approaching 120 years of service and are NOT being replaced). Contrary to popular belief, these types of sashes can be easily removed for cleaning. These windows are extremely cheap and easy to care for.

Disadvantages of new windows include: being made from almost entirely proprietary parts, not being repairable or maintainable, and looking cheap.

A few months ago, I was down at my neighborhood glass shop having a new pane of glass cut for a window (cost: $22.00) when a man came in with an out-of-warranty Anderson sash that had fogged up. The seal between the inner and outer panes of glass had failed, moisture got between the glass and the whole thing fogged up inside. He wanted the glass shop to replace the glass in his window so he could see out of it again. Unfortunately, there are no good fixes for this situation (you cannot replace the glass) and the only solution is to buy a new sash from the manufacturer, provided you can identify the manufacturer, they are still in business, and they still make your type of sash in the color and size you need. He flipped when he was quoted a price of nearly $300.00. My sash was a similar size and I got a big piece of glass for it. Would it even be possible for me to save the difference between $300.00 and $22.00 in energy savings with just one sash? If so, how long would it take?

Is it possible for new windows to pay for themselves in energy savings in their usable lifetime? My thesis research indicated that it is unlikely. A better way to spend that money would be in maintaining the old windows and by buying a more efficient furnace/boiler.

A historic preservation professor once told me that there is no such thing as a "maintenance-free" building material. Only materials that are maintainable and maintenance-proof.

Sorry for the rant, but the C4C thread got me thinking about short-term savings that end up costing a ton later. Also, if you have these old windows and you can grab the sash and rock it back and forth, you don't need new windows. You only need to remove the stops (the pieces of wood that delineate the tracks in which the sashes go up and down) and move them closer to the sash and screw them back in place. It takes minutes and will save a boatload on heating and cooling bills.

Check out the following link. It's an interesting read on how historic buildings are far greener than most people think.

Clear as mud?
Dave

 
My 70+ year old house has the original windows. On a whim, I checked the cost to replace them with good quality insulated windows and it was over $4000 plus installation. I figured that I would never see the savings return on my energy bill for decades. Plus, you are right: The new windows look like cheap crap when installed in older homes, although some of the higher end windows are made to look like the originals and would probably look OK, but the cost is astronomical.

I collected a bunch of the old style wood windows that people were throwing away and made a green house out of them.
 
Very good points. But my mother was a clean-freak and germ-freak and it was a PITA to wash two surfacs of double-hung windows and two sides of storm windows twice a year. I had mercy and helped her with the "big jobs"

Give me tilt-in-to-clean (See? functioning as an adjective) double-hung windows in vinyl with two panes and I'm happy as a clam.

Form those of you that must have wood, one can get wooden winows with "storm-windows" (i.e. a second glazing) that "slots in".

In this countr, for the right price, one can buy anything except class and experience.
 
One goal I have if I ever own a home is to NOT have modern windows for all the reasons listed above.

The "joy" of modern windows was driven home several years ago, when I learned of a window replacement disaster. The house was built in the early 1990s. Apparently, the seal in one window in a small dining area off the kitchen started leaking. (At first, it was the air seal between the glass.) This occurred when the house was probably ONLY about 5 years old. The owner decided to let it slide for a while due to the high cost of replacing windows. One thing led to another, and by the time he listed the house for sale about 10 years later, the window was leaking water (and had been for some time). The water took its toll, and the window, the wall under the window, and about 1 1/2 feet of subfloor had to be replaced.

Of course, if the window had been replaced sooner, it would have just been the window. But the cost was high, and the owner (early on) had other, more important financial problems.
 
Replacement windows

My former across-the-street neighbors had vinyl replacement windows installed about 20 or so years ago. In a few years, at least 75% of them had lost their seal, and fogged up. They ended up having to get new ones put in abou 10 years ago.

Knew of another case where a house had vinyl frame windows, and the house next door caught fire. All the 2nd floor windows on the side facing the burning house fell out of their openings, and vinyl siding sagged. The burned house was at least 25ft. away.

I did get new windows in my house, as I pretty much changed the layout, and most were in new locations. The ones I got are wood on the inside, and ivory color extruded aluminum on the exterior. They look very nice, and hope they last a long time. The old ones were wood, and in not too bad of shape to be 53 years old. Still have some of the sashs; wish I could find someone who could use them.
 
Dave, are you saying the glass guy wouldn't replace the double-pane in the guy's Anderson sash?

It's a little bit more work than single pane, but any glass man worth his salt could have pulled out the tape measure, cut 2 identical pieces and sent them off to be "thermo-paned". Typically with an x-many year guarantee!
 
New glass.

This particular type of sash (like many) was glued together AROUND the glass. Yes, new glass could have been cut and sealed, but the sash would have to be destroyed to remove the old glass and install the new. Unfortunately, this would have ruined the sash, rendering the new glass a moot point.

Installing insulated double panes in old wooden sashes is possible, and not too bad an idea, but so many new windows cannot be repaired or serviced.
Dave
 
New vinyl replacement windows suck- they are cheesey and ugly, IMO. If you want energy efficiency, just replace the storm windows. The new ones are very air tight, and the integrity of an old house is not destroyed. I think the windows in my office should last another 120 years. I reglazed each one, and replaced all the sash cords. They look and work like new.
Bobby in Boston
 
Dave

The hubby is in the environmental field and has always said that there is nothing greener than maintaining what you have already got for as long as conceivably possible. He feels that no one considers the production and transportation costs on the environment.
 
When I redid a house a year or two ago I replaced all the windows in the 1950 colonial. They were single pane with double track aluminum storms. While the windows where in ok shape, the storms were trash. It made no sense to replace the storms and keep the old windows.

I went with an aluminum wrapped wood window and could not have been happier. Zero maintenance on the exterior and a nice surface to paint on the interior. Cut the sound transmission 75% along with zero drafts. Of course these were new construction windows not the crappy replacement kind. Actually had more glass than the old ones. I HATE vinyl windows and will never allow any in my home.
 
Amen to that MattL, we got a nice tax rebate on ours this year, and the house was warmer this winter and we did burn less natural gas. Our old wooden ones were just rotted out all the way through, for some reason the contractor obtained all the windows for the brick (old) parts of the house custom made, every area that was covered with new siding was builder grade, and i changed the length of some of them and got the narrow window for the bathroom. alr2903
 
Its like anything else

There is good quality and there is bad, and you generally get what you pay for.

I work peripherally with historic preservationists, and I've heard this story a million times. There are good new windows, and there are bad ones. Not all new ones are cheap vinyl.

My house has single glazed metal framed windows and I can't wait to get rid of them. Even when completely leaving out any arguments about energy savings, the biggest benefit of new windows is the ease of cleaning and the reduction in noise from outside.
 
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