Self-immolating Refigerators?

[sudsmaster]

I was at Costco the other day and spotted a small fridge for a reasonable price ($199, I think). It was something like 8 cu ft, and the brand was something like Danby. Perhaps not bad as a second fridge for beer in the garage. But what caught my eye was the warning sticker inside, cautioning against using sharp implements to chip any ice in the freezer, because the refrigerant is inflammable.

 

I've read about new refrigerants based on hydrocarbons which are more environmentally friendly than the usual halogenated stuff, but this is the first I've seen of a product that actually contains them. Another alternative is to use carbon dioxide as the refrigerant, but this approach requires compressor pressures about four times currently in use, which can drive up the cost of the system.

 

I'm not sure how much of a hazard the new refrigerants might be. But flames shooting out from the freezer compartment could not be a good thing. On the other hand, simply closing the door would likely cut off oxygen and extinguish any internal blaze. That is if the system pressure doesn't first fill the kitchen with an explosive hydrocarbon aerosol.

 

Good times ahead...

 

 

[henene4]

I heared of some systems actualy using a form of butane, so that surely would be flammable.

However, given any coolant exiting a system would first have to mix with air&#92oxygen to even be combustable, it wouldn't be a flamethrower kind of situation. I guess its more about accidently causing a leak and not noticing it until everything goes boom.

 

[vacerator]

sounds like they

took lessons from Beko.
Servell refrigerators used a sulfur based refrigerant and an open flame, not a compressor. if it leaked and contacted the flame, "POISONOUS".

 

[sudsmaster]

The average human cannot survive in an atmosphere that does not contain significant amounts of oxygen.

 

Thusly, any fridge interior will also contain significant amounts of oxygen.

 

Granted, there won't be a carburetor inside the fridge to force the mixing of the ideal ratio of flammable hydrocarbon gas/liquid and oxygen, but it will occur shortly after the hydrocarbon, under pressure, spritzes out of the system in case of a puncture or fast leak.

 

See: Hindenburg disaster...

 

Or, San Bruno gas explosion...

 

 

[cuffs054]

Most RV refers are still sulfur cooled with open flame and or electric heater. Mine does a great job but will be replaced with electric when it dies.

 

[earthling177]

The history of refrigeration is rather funny that way.

Prior to Freon, all refrigerants were flammable, poisonous or both. There were many cases of homes catching fire because the compressors were not perfectly sealed, so refrigerant would sometimes leak and catch fire or make people sick.

In any case, yes, at least one of the replacements for Freon is actually a mix of propane and other flammable gases, and that's one of the reasons why the phase out of Freon was as weird as we've seen, first removing it from places that were just open to the atmosphere, like cleaning circuit boards and spray can propellants, then getting a more and more serious bans like for A/C and refrigerators.

Cheers,
-- Paulo.

 

[cuffs054]

I love the smell of phasgene(sp) in the morning.

 

[ptcruiser51]

Old News

Condenser-type refrigerators going back to the 60s had these warnings about "sharp objects". I had one until I joined the 20th Century in 1987. Best way to defrost in a hurry? Use your blow-dryer! Hot water is just too much mess. Those "sharp object" warnings are there for a purpose. Heed them.

My sister has condenser freezer in her garage. When they have a power failure (often) she puts contents into Igloo coolers and leaves the door open. When all the mess defrosts, my BIL just hoses it all out and re-loads when power is restored. No problemo.

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, I think the long term solution is to go with CO2 instead of toxic or flammable refrigerants.

 

I understand German car mfgs like Mercedes are going with CO2 systems in their new models.

 

 

[vacerator]

BMW is or was

testing auto a/c systems with synthetic zeolites. They actually move on their own by expanding and contracting with the chemical reaction.

 

[goatfarmer]

I thunk Servels used ammonia.

 

[lorainfurniture]

I believe the designation is r-400. It is isobutane. Crazy thing is on these units is that the sealed system is not serviceable.

Go buy one of those fancy quad door samsungs and when it needs a compressor in 1.5 years you will have to throw it away.

 

[combo52]

R-400 Refrigerant

Yes many new refs use R-400, and in theory these refs are serviceable, but Samsung and LG refs aren't really worth fixing in the first place, LOL.

 

About 90% of new refs in Germany already use R-400.

 

Gas absorption refs used ammonia, which is not flammable.

 

All refs have a condenser, so it doesn't make any difference when defrosting a manual defrost model.

 

Flammable refrigerants were never widely used in this country so I dough that any homes ever burned down when an early ref leaked refrigerant.

 

[a440]

I guess I got a good Samsung

Our Samsung Refrigerator is going on 14 years this coming November.  It has never skipped a beat.  That best refrigerator I have ever owned.  With it's twin cooling it keeps food, vegetables and fruit for ever it seems.  The humidity control is amazing!

 

I will never buy another refrigerator that does not keep the air from the freezer and fridge separate.  Makes a world of difference.  Seems like Whirlpool agreed when they started their line.  The goofy part is that you really pay for those models.  $$$ 

 

 

 

 

 

[earthling177]

John (Combo52) said:

"Flammable refrigerants were never widely used in this country so I doubt that any homes ever burned down when an early ref leaked refrigerant."

Well, I suppose it depends on one's point of view -- the first few Consumer Reports on domestic electric fridges mention how much safer Freon fridges were compared to the others and specifically mentions home fires; Wikipedia specifically mentions Ammonia, Sulphur Dioxide and Methyl Chloride as the first popular refrigerants and also mentions that the GE Monitor Top was one of the very first domestic refrigerators to see widespread use, with over one million produced and they used either Sulphur Dioxide or Methyl Formate as refrigerants; ammonia and sulphur dioxide are toxic, methyl chloride is toxic and highly flammable, methyl formate is toxic, dangerous to the eyes and highly flammable.

So, if we consider the number of fridges produced back then, and that they were not as widespread as now, sure, maybe the number of home fires were relatively low. The thing is, the number of home fires, including in USA, due to accidents with refrigerators leaking was not zero and it was enough to push Freon to the forefront.

Cheers,
-- Paulo.

 

[supersuds]

My dad's college textbook, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning by Jordan and Priester (1956) says, in its section on refrigerants, that ammonia is highly toxic and flammable, and methyl chloride is "to a certain degree" flammable and toxic. Sulfur dioxide is nonexplosive and nonflammable and because "the volume of refrigerant charge is small...there is little danger of fatal concentrations resulting through refrigerant leakage."

Carbon dioxide is noted to have received only limited usage due to high horsepower requirements per ton of refrigeration and high operating pressures.

Butane, isobutane and propane are highly flammable and explosive, "and therefore their use has been limited principally to the chemical and refining industries where similar hazards already exist. They all possess satisfactory thermodynamic properties."

Also, "isobutane was used by one manufacturer of domestic refrigerators in a rotary compressor until 1933." Wonder who that was?

 

[tolivac]

Ammonia-yes,its toxic and CANNOT be used with copper plumbing-if you use copper plumbing with Ammonia-forms copper nitrides that are EXPLOSIVE---"touch powder"Pranksters made this in chemistry class.Ammonia is still like be ice cream manufacturers-it can chill brine quicklyand the ice cream.
Methyl Chloride was another refrigerant liked for high capacity-low temp applications.An unusual use was a hanger at Eglin AFB I was able to visit while in operation.This is in Florida-temp was like 95 degrees outside-go into the chamber and it was 75 degrees BELOW zero!!!Felt good for a moment.They use this to test airplanes,engines,adn other vehicles in freezing conditions.also aircraft 20MM and 30MM gun systems.These were also tested in those conditions-same temps you would find at high altitudes.They were in the process of testing F-15's at the time.Planes were strapped down.The site has 6 1500 Hp Allis Chalmers Methyl Chloride compressors.4 were running when I was there.The compressors had frost on them.The other two would be started when they run the planes engines-they have to chill the incoming air and the other two compressors were needed to do that.A big thermometer on the outside of the hanger told you what the temp was.Was a fun place to visit.The tour guide took me under a spherical tank that held like 200 tons of Methyl chloride!

 

[ilovewindex]

Recalled Refrigerators

This is so interesting... I never knew so many types of gases and chemicals could chill
I didn't know early refrigerators had something different. Esp the old monitor tops

The one thing i can think of is Refrigerators catching fire from other components... Maytag had a recall for refrigerators combusting and Norcold/Doemetic (RV Fridges)have as well.. But i've read about others combusting as well

Between the gasses in the unit and what ever goes wrong, a few have even exploded I saw

In realty, i think the compressor's overheating or the wires chafing inside or possibly a bad defrost heater could cause it to combust.. Not to mention if some one is poking around inside and pokes something and there is static electricity and poof... or when defrost water drips and shorts something out

OR when some one uses a heat gun/air dryer and melts the inside and the evaperator and sets it alight....

Mind you all are far fetched but still

 

[vacerator]

Amonia sounds as bad

as sulfur.