Simpson Delta questions

[dom333]

Hi AutomaticWasher forums.

Firstly just want to say that this is an amazing resource for people like myself who prefer all things retro. I totally get the websites 50s graphics as well.

Just wanted to ask some questions about my Simpson Delta that Ive owned since 1987 from new. Its the model with the motor reverse controller.

The problem is that it seems to go through motor capacitors which I believe are for both start and run. Dont actually know what type of motor it is though.

Ive noticed that when it agitates in the clockwise direction the rotation seems to stop short due to the spin brake operating. I think this may result in the capacitor failures.

So my questions are as follows:

Is this braked clockwise operation normal?

I also need some information about how that part of the washer operates. When I look underneath I can see the solenoid operated clutch that locks the agitator and bowl together for the spin cycle but where is the brake that operates if the lid is lifted and how is this actuated?

Just wondering if I should replace the clutch solenoid.

The washer still operates well apart from not agitating in the clockwise direction whenever a new capacitor is needed - just trying to keep the old dude alive. Im amazed by the fact that I have used this machine every week since 1987.

Im hoping someone can help me understand the machines operation better. If someone could indicate where the brake is in the attached photo Id be grateful.

Cheers
Dom

 

[cfz2882]

Looks like that is made in Japan-permanent split capacitor is the only type of motor i have seen used on washers of that origin. Could try a capacitor with a higher voltage rating- voltage spikes can take the out.

 

[brisnat81]

Hi Brendan, these were Australian designed and manufactured, from the early 80’s till the mid naughties.

Dom, maybe reach out to Gizmo on here. Chris has a much better understanding than I do about how these work. From memory, the delicate cycles had a short stroke in one direction, but I remember that the stroke cadence changed as the machine progressed through the cycle. If you can record a video of the agitation and upload it to YouTube, that’d help us to hear what’s happening.

With it running, can you confirm that the brake is fully disengaged l? If the brake is grabbing, I’d expect the engagement arm to be moving as it agitates.

 

[dom333]

Hey Nathan
Ive made a steel frame to support the washer up high so that I could see it in operation and wouldnt you know it agitated without a problem so maybe the faults related to having weight in it. Didnt fill it either just added some water and blew into the pressure switch to get it agitating.

I dont actually know where the brake is though - this is what Im trying to understand. Is the brake actuated by the clutch solenoid? Does the brake engage centrifugally?

The solenoid that locks the bowl and agitator for spinning works fine and considering it releases when you lift the lid and the brake then applies Im assuming that the brake only acts on the bowl not the agitator so probably not a fault at all maybe.

I kind of thought that the agitation might have been designed to happen for different durations for each direction so helpful to have that confirmed.

Discovered the source of a leak though so that was good.

Dont know how to PM Gizmo - should I email to his profile address?
Thanks for the help too by the way.

 

[gizmo]

Gizmo here...

Hi, it's late so I will be brief. I will come back in next day or two for more detail if needed.

 

The brake is a spring steel band that grips around the aluminium gearbox casing. A flat strip of strong spring steel that grips the outer edge of the gearbox, through some sort of friction material. (I forget what.) If you follow from the solenoid, it pulls on that plastic pivoting arm, which has a spring around the centre pivot point. The other end of that plastic arm is a steel piece goes in behind the drive pulley in the first photo. (Actually above the drive pulley in working position.) Follow that arm in towards the gearbox and you should see the brake band which curves around the gearbox, and the end of it bends 90 degrees and sticks out from the gearbox, and should be gripped by the end of that brake arm - from memory the arm terminates in two "fingers" and the brake band should be gripped between the two fingers.

 

There is another part of that pivoting brake arm, this time plastic, which operates the clutch - to either lock the pulley to the gearbox casing for spin (when the brake is<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> released</span>) or to disengage the drive pulley from the gearbox casing (when the brake is applied), allowing the gearbox reduction drive to rotate the agitator (for wash). I think it's about 4 or 5 to 1 reduction - 4 or 5 turns of the input pulley to 1 turn of the agitator.

The clutch is a wire spring that wraps around an upper and lower shaft, gripping them both if  it is allowed to (and this making them turn together as one) or, if the spring is slightly unwound, it loses its grip on the lower shaft and the two halves can rotate independently of each other. The unwinding is achieved by that plastic pointy finger on the brake arm sticking into the spokes of a plastic casing around the clutch spring, and rotating the plastic casing slightly to rotate one end of the clutch spring and make it release. The plastic "spokes" I mentioned look like white plastic gear teeth.

 

If you have a problem (and it might be fine) then I'd suspect the clutch is binding (not releasing fully) for wash. This could be:

- wear of the tip of plastic finger that pokes into the plastic clutch casing

- wear of the clutch spring (the tip that engages into the plastic casing around it can break off)

- clutch spring deformed or needing lube

- that pivot arm sticking/binding

- maybe wear of the gearbox, or water in the gearbox???

 

Thanks Nathan for your kind words, but I'm no expert in these machines. Basically, I don't like them. They were an Australian copy of the Japanese machines that were flooding into Australia at the time, and I don't think they were a great copy. I much prefer the Hoover Premier of the time, also a copy of Japanese technology, but better executed. The Hoover had a 7 to 1 reduction gearbox with nylon gears (the Simpson had steel gears and I think about 4:1) and the Hoover seemed much more reliable.

 

If you can post video of the wash action, we can get an idea if it is normal or misbehaving.

 

Eating capacitors might be high supply voltage - have you checked your voltage at home? What is the rated voltage of the capacitors? From vague memory they should be rated to cope with over 400 volts??

 

The motors are indeed permanent split capacitor motors - there is no start winding, just two run windings, one gets its power direct from the supply and the other winding gets fed through the capacitor, swapping which winding is fed by the capacitor reverses direction of the motor.

 

Someone with more expertise here might have an opinion on whether overloading the motor (due to clutch faults, transmission faults, stiff bearings, whatever) might cause capacitor failures??

 

First think I would check - WITH POWER DISCONNECTED - with the brake solenoid released (brake is holding the transmission) try turning the pulley a few turns one way, then a few turns the other way. It should feel the same either way. Try it a few times. If it turns easily one way but it stiff or hard to turn the other way, I reckon you have a clutch problem.

 

 

Hmmm. I said I'd be brief...

 

 

[dom333]

Hi Chris
Thanks for taking the time for your detailed reply.

So I understand that the brake is that steel lever that rests on the band thingy up near the bowl end and the clutch is operated by the plastic pawl on the end of the solenoid actuated lever that turns the plastic sprocket to tighten the clutch when the solenoid is energised. Please correct if I misunderstand.

When I turn the pulley manually without the solenoid retracted the resistance is the same in both direstions, I did notice at first however that the pawl was kind of catching on the clutch sprocket IE not completely disengaging. When I went to film this after having retracted the solenoid a couple of times I noticed that it wasnt hapening any more so the video didnt show the "catching". By "catching" I mean the tip of the pawl moving the sprocket slightly with each change of direction.
Wasnt able to upload a phone format video here.

I suppose that rotating the pulley in the anticlockwise direction (when viewed from below IE agitator rotating in clockwise rotation) with the pawl still slightly contacting the sprocket would tend to engage the clutch but because the bowl brake is still engaged this would have the effect of stopping the agitator turning in the clockwise direction when the machine is in wash cycle.
The agitation "fault" also happens irregularly with some clockwise rotations normal and others stopped short also accompanied with clicking sounds.

So I suppose I should try to make sure that the pawl can have adequate clearance when disengaged right?

I also noticed that theres a red twist tie thing holding the pawl onto its shaft on the actuating lever - dont know how that got there. I dont recall ever needing anyone to do repair work on it but I did buy it 37 years ago.

I replaced the capacitors with ones rated the same as the original capacitor that I found in there - 10uF and 400volts.

Id be interested to hear your thoughts if you can spare the time.
Thanks for your help with this.

 

[dom333]

Sorry just reread your explanation of how the brake works - the end of the steel brake plate rests on the band part when the solenoid isnt retracted so I thought that that was the braking action.
Cheers

 

[gizmo]

Sorry Dom but that last photo is very blurry, I can't make out anything useful. Any chance of you taking it again? Shining a bright light in there should make a clearer image.

 

I suspect the twist tie might be something to do with your problem, either a previous dodgy repair, or just a twist tie that has mysteriously found its way in there over the years and is interfering with the pawl. The pawl needs to turn the plastic "gear teeth" a bit to RELEASE the clutch - free up the agitator shaft so it isn't clamped to the drum shaft, but free to rotate and operate the agitator.

 

So yes your explanation is pretty right, if the pawl is not fully engaging with the clutch sprocket, then you get dragging of the clutch in one direction when agitating. The clutch is a one-way clutch so if the pawl is broken off completely (or the solenoid jammed in retracted position) then the agitate action will still work properly in one direction and try to turn the drum in the other direction.

 

The brake is engaged (braking) when the solenoid is OFF - just to be clear. Brake releases (solenoid energized) to allow the drum to turn for spin. It is fairly important that the drum is still turning when solenoid goes off again, the gearbox and brake band should still be spinning (not necessarily at full speed) when the brake arm swings back in and "grabs" the protruding part of the brake band. (this is quite difficult to explain, bear with me) Again to try to explain this clearly, I use the term "brake band" to mean the spring steel wound around the gearbox with a protruding end of maybe 10mm, spinning when the gearbox is spinning; I use the term "brake arm" to mean the pivoting arm which is moved by the solenoid.  When the solenoid releases (goes off at end of spin), the brake arm swings inwards to contact the protruding bit of the brake band and grab it. It must skip over the shorter first "finger" on the end of the brake arm and catch in the slot before the longer second "finger".

 

If the drum has already slowed to a complete stop, or is turning very slowly, when the brake arm moves in, then the brake band stops at the first finger and doesn't latch properly into the gap between the two fingers. When the machine agitates next, the drum can rotate with the agitator in one direction because the brake arm hasn't gripped properly. This should only happen once or twice, the agitation should move the drum strongly enough to make the brake engage properly after a couple of attempts. BUT... I think this brake and clutch was a weakness of these Simpson machines, especially early ones. My memories of this are vague, but... I think maybe the early ones would go straight from spinning to braking immediately, this meant the brake grabbed when the drum was still spinning at almost full speed and this was very hard on the brake arm, brake band and the aluminium gearbox casing, eventually the brake would wear the gearbox casing quite badly. Later versions would stop powering the spin, but allow the spinning drum to slowly coast down till almost stopped (1 increment of the timer) before releasing the solenoid and thus applying the brake more gently. I think Simpson varied the length of the coast down period over various models to get the balance right - too fast and it wears the brake; too slow and engagement of the brake becomes unreliable. Eventually these became quite reliable machines but early ones weren't too good.

 

Oh  and you can't upload videos here - you need to upload them to another site like youtube and then link to them here.

 

[gizmo]

Now here's an idea...

Here is a website of a man I used to see occasionally who has written a book about repairing Australian washing machines.

His name is Lindsay Alford and he is a retired washing machine repairman. I believe he was previously a teacher before that. (??)

 

He is a lovely man, I used to buy second hand parts from him decades ago. He still lists used washing machine parts for sale on Gumtree from time to time. He was always encouraging and helpful to me.

 

The link below is to his web page for the book. He supplies it as an A4 printed manual, it is not fancy but the information in it is great. It covers your machine and many others, your machine is described in the "top suspended Simpson" section.

 

I suggest you buy a copy from him. I have a copy but I won't copy it, his work is copyright and he deserves to earn something for providing it to us. It is listed for $40 plus postage. Click on the contacts link for his contact details. If these are out of date, look on Gumtree for used washing machine parts being sold out of Leopold in Victoria - this will be him.

Australian Washing Machine Repairs

 

[brisnat81]

Hi Chris, Thankyou for your wealth of information.

We had a Genesis in 86 that had the brown and black control panel, which I think was the first generation of these machines. Unless you opened the lid while it was spinning, which would cause it to stop with a loud clunk, clunk and then a bang it always coasted.

I’m still amazed looking back at all the agitation profiles they got out of a machine with a simple motor and just a timer. In the normal wash there were three or four different agitation profiles and the spin would ramp up and down 2-3 times before the final spin happened. Ours had nylon gears in the gearbox, dad did a rebuild in 1993 and they were green.

 

[dom333]

Hi Chris and Nathan
Apologies for the delay - had to deal with a broken window. Seems like the world has just gone completely insane.

Sorry wasnt able to take clearer photos today.
Thanks for the additional explanations - got more questions below.

I forgot to ask if anyone would know how to find the model number for my machine.
The printed plate stuck to the side is completely illegible.
Ive called Simpsons offshore helpcentre without success.
Ive seen an identical machine on a Quora type website with the post stating that the model number for a Simpson Delta as being 36-300-200 but Ive never seen this number listed on any parts suppliers model lists for early machines. They list numbers starting with 36 but theres usually letters in the model numbers as well for example 36P450L*00.

Does anyone have information about the model number conventions Simpson used?

RE: your second reply I thought that the problem was that the pawl doesnt disengage completely. When the solenoid is energised the pawl engages and turns the sprocket clockwise as you look at it from underneath so that the agitator and the bowl are clutched together for the spin cycle. The pulley can be turned in both directions but with more resistance in the anticlockwise direction (as I look at it from underneath) because in that direction I presume Im turning the bowl as well.(Wasnt actually able to confirm this because my neck isnt long enough ha ha ha ).

When the solenoid isnt energised the pawl retracts away from the sprocket and the bowl is braked and the agitator is free to turn in both directions for the wash cycle.
So is this what you are saying Chris?

RE: Lindsay Alfords book - Yes I actually bought his book the first time I had controller / capacitor problems but I think the book assumes that you have more than a feeble understanding about how the machines work especially considering that there were different designs that evolved over time with different ways of achieving the same thing.
I didnt have much idea about how the clutch / brake systems work before asking here so thats why being able to talk to you guys has been such a great resource. Heres to ya.

Lindsays book is great for advanced information though and Im glad he wrote it.

RE: the red twist tie - it definately seems like it was put there deliberately to pretend to be some kind of repair - it seems to be wrapped around the pawl to hold it onto its spigot thing. Going to investigate that properly when Ive got my glass fixed.

RE: reduced spin before braking - yes my machine reduces its spin speed (IE motor stops and the bowl coasts down) before the brake comes on. It stops violently if you lift the lid during spin though which is obviously a safety "feature" so I think Ill bypass the lid switch.

Thanks again for the help. Its also good to have this information here for anyone else whos determined to keep solid old machines alive and not buy into the inbuilt obsolescence of new stuff. I drive around in a 48 year old car.

If you have any information about the Simpson model numbers Id be grateful

Cheers
Dom

 

[gizmo]

Hi Dom

 

Sorry I can't offer any info about model numbers. A photo of the control panel might help someone identify, but probably not me. As I said I have never been very interested in these machines.

 

I don't think your description of the pawl is correct. The pawl engages with the clutch sprocket to RELEASE (<span style="text-decoration: underline;">not</span> engage) the clutch and allow agitation. When the pawl moves away from the clutch sprocket, the clutch spring tightens itself around the two shafts and binds them together, which makes the whole transmission rotate for spin.

 

Really it ,might be useful for you to remove the belt and pulley, remove the pressed metal shroud that obscures your view, and have a close look at the functioning of the clutch (including taking off the plastic sprocket, once the pulley is out of the way I think it just lifts off???) It's the same as the Japanese machines these were based on, the spring/clutch is quite simple once you see it in position and try turning it each way. When the pawl pokes into the plastic sprocket (solenoid OFF) the end of the spring is rotated very slightly, this increases the diameter of the spring just a whisker and it no longer grips the shaft inside it.

 

Hoover Keymatics used the same type of clutch too, to engage or release the wash pulsator. They were pretty troublesome.

 

You might be able to still source the spin brake/ pawl assembly - Lindsay might have one, or maybe Allfix, they seem to have very old parts listed. I'm guessing your pawl might be the trouble. (just because of the bread tie in there.)

 

[dom333]

OK Chris thanks again.