Soft water? Recirculating washers

[jkbff]

I'm the kind of sales person that sells something that I believe in, not something I am being pushed to sell just to sell it. Miele Dishwasher, Electrolux *17 pairs, BlueStar gas ranges etc.

That being said, I have sold 62 pairs of the Electrolux laundry since the new models have come out.

I am running into issues now. Our water around here is a 7 grain for hardness, but a lot of people still insist on having softeners.

Water softeners and these machines do not mix. Even on a decent sized load, if you put the smallest amount of detergent in, once the premix happens on the 617 or the recirc on both 517 and 617, it is a foam party.

Is there a way to counter-act the soft water at the machine before it goes into the machine?

 

[yogitunes]

you have a number of choices...

tap in to the water supply before it hits the water treatment units......

there are by-pass valves built in to these units as well, you can by-pass the conditioned water for things like watering the lawn, laundry, washing the car...and then turn back on for the rest of the time...

I re-plumbed my outside faucets and underground sprinklers as that water is not conditioned....it saves from having to turn the system off, and then remember to turn back on....

 

[henene4]

Detergent

It really is hard to find, but some detergents out there are really close to no-suds. And with the efficent cleaning, you often can dose really low and get proper cleanng results.

 

[mrb627]

Elux 617

I had a terrible time with the Elux617 and Persil liquid detergent. The only solution I found was to drop to the Light or Extra Light soil level setting. It seems to minimize the pumping action which causes the foaming issue. Now that the Persil has been exhausted, I am back to an HE-Turbo branded detergent and sudsing is much less.

Malcolm

 

[iej]

I agree you’re just using the wrong detergent for your water type.

I’ve found Fairy (Dawn in th US) packs actually cause my Miele dishwasher to almost suds locks.
Whereas I’ve had no issue whatsoever with Unilever Sun or most forms of Finish. Miele own brand tablets are very low foam too.

Just pick the least foaming detergent and use the lowest doses for your washing machine. Less is more - over dosing in soft water won’t get your clothes any cleaner - it can even reduce the wash performance by turning it into nothing more than a foamy suds cake.

 

[askolover]

What they ^ said.  I've had a softener for 17 years.  It just takes trial and error to find the right detergent and the right amount.  I switched to pods because he who thinks he must be obeyed constantly over dosed the machines with liquid detergent causing suds lock.  In my case, using the bypass on the softener is not feasible because the softener is under the house.  I was considering what Martin said and running an unsoftened cold line up to the washer since it actually passes right under it on its way to the softener but going to pods solved the problem.  Detergents like Ecovantage and Rosalie's do well and I currently have a stash of Tide and Gain both in turbo formula. 

But with dishwasher detergents I've had to stop using tablets/pods because they foam too much.  I went back to gels and old school powders that contain chlorine and have had no more problems.

 

[jkbff]

The house in question is being built. I told the plumber I wanted filtered water going to the Miele ovens, dishwasher and coffee maker, but not RO or Softened water. I said you may as well do the same thing for the Washers and Dryers too, because they won't work well with softened water.

The plumber told me it would be very hard considering the two 80 Gallon HTP Phoenix water heaters were going to be in the softened loop. I guess that makes sense if the hot water is softened as well.

I have asked for the mechanical contractor to find out how much softening they will be doing but I just didn't want to run into any issues and have complaints from over sudsing because they oversoftened their water.

 

[askolover]

The softeners can be dialed back.  I probably should dial mine down too but I'm used to it now.  The only real problem I have run into is corrosion in the water heater.  Here, a water heater typically lasts at least 20 years.  My previous one only made it to 10.  I'm going to install an electronic anode that will never wear out or dissolve now that it's over a year old. 

 

[rolls_rapide]

Softened water

Did I imagine it, or did I once read in an instruction manual for a Miele washing machine, that they warned against connecting to a water softener?

Meanwhile, at the other end of the spectrum, we have the current top end AEG machines... with water softener built in.

I suppose if the softener is onboard, then the machine can adapt itself accordingly.

 

[yogitunes]

how can you guys forget Rosalie's Zero-Suds detergent from our very own Jon/Jetcone?

it will even knock out suds from previous washings left on clothing.....

 

[askolover]

Rolls--

My Miele manual doesn't mention anything about not connecting to a water softener but my refrigerator does...something about corroding the ice maker components...but I have it connected anyway.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Miele and softened water

I found something...

And it appears that detergent should be drastically reduced if using a water softener.

http://https//www.harveywatersofteners.co.uk/water-softener/faqs/my-washing-machine-manufacturer-miele-state-i-cannot-use-softened-water-their-machine-correct

 

[DADoES]

 
Too much reduction in detergent dosing doesn't provide sufficient cleaning ingredients such as enzymes to deal with stains.

 

[askolover]

That's why I just stick with pods...or even some powders like Tide.  BTW, Walmart's newest GV detergent pods that smell like Gain (but are made by Sun) don't suds too much at all.  In fact I've used 2 in a very full load of towels and still didn't over suds.  Cleans ok too.

 

[logixx]

FWIW: Miele recommend no less than 4 GPG for their dishwashers. Apparently, over-softened water pulls ions (?) from glasses and leads to visible etching.

 

[henene4]

Not enough detergent

If there is to little detergent, there can't be any sudsing as all the ions are "occupied" by dirt. Little suds is ok, higher suds are unncessary.

 

[earthling177]

Alex:

Yes, that is true. But, for good or bad, some people have naturally soft water that is below that and yes, it does etch the dishes too, not just the glasses (depending on material etc).

That being said, it was more common with our previous machines that did not have a built-in water softener -- I dunno if the protection extends to all built-in softeners or if it's just because our machine has an automatic softener that measures the water hardness for each cycle and blends soft and "hard" water accordingly... our water varies from under 1 GPG to around 6-7 GPG depending on time of year and where the city is sourcing the water from.

All we know is that it's now less common for us to have to buy all new glasses so often.