What was the purpose of spin sprays in older washers? Why did some have them after the wash and some after the rinse?
Spin Spray
- Thread starter Chetlaham
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My Whirlpool convertible/portable (in Harvest Gold no less) had spray rinses after main wash before rinse, and after during first few minutes of final spin.
To get an idea behind why washing machines use spin rinses you can study patents.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5737790A/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5167722A/en
https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5167722.html
IIRC original purpose of spin rinses was to reduce water used for rinsing.
Many older automatic washing machines had either overflow rinsing and or ability to do two deep rinses.
Spray rinses after deep before final spin removes (again in theory) need for a second full rinse.
Easy "SpinDrier" washers and others also realized it was possible to rinse laundry using less water just doing spray rinses. Hoover and other twin tubs also had these methods. Unimac twin tub washers still use a method similar to Easy spin drier washers of old.
To effectively spray rinse water must be aimed properly at washing, tub rotation must be at speeds that water merely will not just bounce off laundry, but rather be allowed to saturate by penetration.
Overflow rinsing was important in days when soap was still queen of wash day as gunk and scum was floated up and over wash. This instead of laundry acting as a filter when water was drained through.
With semi-automatic washers such as wringers or twin tubs one lifts laundry out of wash water into a mangle or spin dryer. Link and gunk tend to cling less to laundry that is lifted out of dirty water.
Spray rinsing will accomplish (or so it is hoped) same results as overflow rinsing. Water sprayed at wash will saturate laundry and centrifugal force will take water along with dissolved soils, gunk, scum and lint out and down drain.
Spray rinsing also (again hopefully) will clear much or most of soap/detergent/suds from outer wash tub and sump. When washer stops extraction cycle and begins to fill with water for rinse cycle it should be mostly clean. This rather than regurgitating whatever was left after wash.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?76135
To get an idea behind why washing machines use spin rinses you can study patents.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5737790A/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5167722A/en
https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5167722.html
IIRC original purpose of spin rinses was to reduce water used for rinsing.
Many older automatic washing machines had either overflow rinsing and or ability to do two deep rinses.
Spray rinses after deep before final spin removes (again in theory) need for a second full rinse.
Easy "SpinDrier" washers and others also realized it was possible to rinse laundry using less water just doing spray rinses. Hoover and other twin tubs also had these methods. Unimac twin tub washers still use a method similar to Easy spin drier washers of old.
To effectively spray rinse water must be aimed properly at washing, tub rotation must be at speeds that water merely will not just bounce off laundry, but rather be allowed to saturate by penetration.
Overflow rinsing was important in days when soap was still queen of wash day as gunk and scum was floated up and over wash. This instead of laundry acting as a filter when water was drained through.
With semi-automatic washers such as wringers or twin tubs one lifts laundry out of wash water into a mangle or spin dryer. Link and gunk tend to cling less to laundry that is lifted out of dirty water.
Spray rinsing will accomplish (or so it is hoped) same results as overflow rinsing. Water sprayed at wash will saturate laundry and centrifugal force will take water along with dissolved soils, gunk, scum and lint out and down drain.
Spray rinsing also (again hopefully) will clear much or most of soap/detergent/suds from outer wash tub and sump. When washer stops extraction cycle and begins to fill with water for rinse cycle it should be mostly clean. This rather than regurgitating whatever was left after wash.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?76135
Thing is even with all that spray rinsing on top of a deep often wash done in top loader still contains good amount of residue.
People usually find this out when switching from top to front loader and wonder why they have sudsing problems at first. In good number of cases it isn't because they used too much detergent, but that laundry had residue that H-axis washer is now dislodging.
People usually find this out when switching from top to front loader and wonder why they have sudsing problems at first. In good number of cases it isn't because they used too much detergent, but that laundry had residue that H-axis washer is now dislodging.
<span style="font-family: helvetica;">Years ago we bought an Asko Washer and Dryer. I remember the salesman telling us not to use any detergent the first couple of washes because we needed to let all the stop residue from the Top Loader wash away. I'll be damn if he wasn't right. I remember the first load we did actually had some suds from the residual.</span>
Spray Rinses
Spray rinses are great for removing some of the suds and debris left in the sump. Our old Kenmore DD would perform the spray rinses after the rinse, which never made much sense to me. I have used a Maytag DC numerous times, and it did a spray rinse before and after the rinse. The rinse water in this machine was alway considerably clearer than it was in our Kenmore. I can't say for certain it was due to the spray rinses, but I'm sure it helped.
Spray rinses are great for removing some of the suds and debris left in the sump. Our old Kenmore DD would perform the spray rinses after the rinse, which never made much sense to me. I have used a Maytag DC numerous times, and it did a spray rinse before and after the rinse. The rinse water in this machine was alway considerably clearer than it was in our Kenmore. I can't say for certain it was due to the spray rinses, but I'm sure it helped.
filter-flo
I had a filter-flo that did a spin/rinse. No wonder why the GE filter-flos never sudslocked!
I had a filter-flo that did a spin/rinse. No wonder why the GE filter-flos never sudslocked!
vacerator
Well-known member
My newer F.L.
washer spin sprays twice, just like old top loaders did.
washer spin sprays twice, just like old top loaders did.
I'm not sure I've mentioned this before, but I will now. I got a first generation LK DD wash October 1986. You cannot imagine my shock, disgust, and dismay after doing the first load that there was no spin spray after the wash and only ONE 10 or 15 second spray after the rinse. And this followed my life-long experience with BD WP/KM washers featuring 4 spray rinses for both after the wash and rinse. It made me very mad I had to pretty much keep the extra rinse option on for just about every load I did no Normal. Perm Press did have an after wash spray rinse AFTER the cool down phase. I thought, this is bass-ackwards. Knit/Gentle also only had the after rinse spray rinse. Friends from college moved into a new house about 5 or 6 years later and had a brand new KM 70 series washer & dryer. You can imagine how peeved and disgusted I was when discovering there were two spray rinses after both the wash and rinse. (I had to do a 2nd load just to make sure I didn't imagine 2 spray rinses each spin period). Maybe if Whirlpool and Sears had instituted the function of these 2 spray rinses after the wash and rinse as well as putting speed control knob on the control panel rather than only built into the timer from the beginning of the DD design washers being fully rolled out for both KM and WP products, maybe I wouldn't have such disdain for top loaders as I do to this day. At one point, I remember Sears touting a feature/function on their washers at one time for both an UltraRinse feature and then an UltraWash feature. I felt cheated from a poor performance stand point about my LK DD. It's why I gleefully welcomed a used Frigidaire front loader Steve 1-18 found for me in September 2006 and brought it to me in October.
GE filter-flo normal speed
The GE filter-flo pair that I had would vary in the spin cycle thundering noise, especially on the normal speed. Sometimes, it will barely make a thundering sound. Other times, you'll hear a clicking sound of the suspension system. And there are even times you'll hear a loud thundering noise along with a clicking noise - all while the cold water valve is open during the regular cycle. You'll especially hear the loud thundering and clicking noise with a big load of towels and jeans, as well as other durable everyday cotton fabrics.
The GE filter-flo pair that I had would vary in the spin cycle thundering noise, especially on the normal speed. Sometimes, it will barely make a thundering sound. Other times, you'll hear a clicking sound of the suspension system. And there are even times you'll hear a loud thundering noise along with a clicking noise - all while the cold water valve is open during the regular cycle. You'll especially hear the loud thundering and clicking noise with a big load of towels and jeans, as well as other durable everyday cotton fabrics.
lotsosudz
Well-known member
HEY APPNUT
I hear you on the Whirlpool/Kenmore products. I hated them for their lousy Neutral drain. It never made sense to me why you would want the washer to redeposit all the crap you just washed out, to settle back on to the clothes. Also if you had the waterfall filter, as soon as the agitation started for rinse, all the trapped suds would spew out and pollute the rinse water immediately. Not great planning. Give me a Filter Flo. I love my LG front load, and would never want to go back to a top load.
Hugs,
David
I hear you on the Whirlpool/Kenmore products. I hated them for their lousy Neutral drain. It never made sense to me why you would want the washer to redeposit all the crap you just washed out, to settle back on to the clothes. Also if you had the waterfall filter, as soon as the agitation started for rinse, all the trapped suds would spew out and pollute the rinse water immediately. Not great planning. Give me a Filter Flo. I love my LG front load, and would never want to go back to a top load.
Hugs,
David
Neutral Drain
Was one of reasons decided to part with my Whirlpool convertible/portable washer. Just got tired of having my laundry act as a strainer for wash or rinse water.
At the time was dismissed as so much nonsense as spin drain was no better, and that spray rinses would wash off the gunk. That just wasn't my experience at all...
Well designed H-axis washers tumble a bit during draining to facilitate removal of water, and to keep from straining water through laundry.
Much as one loves WP's "Surgilator" and "Magic Mix" filter, the neutral drain bit just wasn't up my street.
Was one of reasons decided to part with my Whirlpool convertible/portable washer. Just got tired of having my laundry act as a strainer for wash or rinse water.
At the time was dismissed as so much nonsense as spin drain was no better, and that spray rinses would wash off the gunk. That just wasn't my experience at all...
Well designed H-axis washers tumble a bit during draining to facilitate removal of water, and to keep from straining water through laundry.
Much as one loves WP's "Surgilator" and "Magic Mix" filter, the neutral drain bit just wasn't up my street.
Everything being said one wonders if choice of detergent or soap for wash played into effectiveness of spray rinsing.
Notice in WP clip above very little suds in wash and water coming up from sump after spin is comparatively clear and free of suds.
Notice however in this clip of 1962 RCA Whirlpool washer that had more suds at the wash, even with what seems more lavish spray spin rinses suds still come up from sump at start of rinse.
Our own WestyToploader showing off a vintage SQ washer doing an agitated overflow rinse. Even with this machine being a later model that used less water, you can see why spray rinses soon displaced over flow.
Notice in WP clip above very little suds in wash and water coming up from sump after spin is comparatively clear and free of suds.
Notice however in this clip of 1962 RCA Whirlpool washer that had more suds at the wash, even with what seems more lavish spray spin rinses suds still come up from sump at start of rinse.
Our own WestyToploader showing off a vintage SQ washer doing an agitated overflow rinse. Even with this machine being a later model that used less water, you can see why spray rinses soon displaced over flow.
"Also if you had the waterfall filter, as soon as the agitation started for rinse, all the trapped suds would spew out and pollute the rinse water immediately. Not great planning. Give me a Filter Flo."
Uhhh, a GE Filter Flo has that same issue. I agree with your other statements though.
Uhhh, a GE Filter Flo has that same issue. I agree with your other statements though.
I've always been a bit skeptical about first-spin spray rinses, especially if they occur while the tub is spinning at full speed. Is the water really penetrating a load that's super-compressed against the side of the tub?
A few vintage brands timed the spray-rinse so the tub wasn't up to full speed and load was less compressed.
As was mentioned above, I suppose they help get rid of suds in the sump/outer tub. Speed Queen certainly sees it that way, as a portion of the spray is aimed directly into the outer tub, if I recall correctly.
Modern top-loaders--at least what I've seen from videos of LG and Fisher & Paykel--really nail spray rinsing. The tub rotates slowly as a well-aimed spray saturates the load. Spin speed increases to extract the water from load. Repeat.
The spray rinse on the Normal/Eco cycle of my 2017 Speed Queen is not as well designed, although I use it frequently for small-to-medium loads. In those circumstances, I don't notice much of a difference between the effectiveness of spray rinses vs. a deep rinse and it reduces water usage substantially.
Of course, the difference lies in the fact that a "classic" spray rinse was never meant to be the only rinse. They were merely the prelude to a deep rinse.
A few vintage brands timed the spray-rinse so the tub wasn't up to full speed and load was less compressed.
As was mentioned above, I suppose they help get rid of suds in the sump/outer tub. Speed Queen certainly sees it that way, as a portion of the spray is aimed directly into the outer tub, if I recall correctly.
Modern top-loaders--at least what I've seen from videos of LG and Fisher & Paykel--really nail spray rinsing. The tub rotates slowly as a well-aimed spray saturates the load. Spin speed increases to extract the water from load. Repeat.
The spray rinse on the Normal/Eco cycle of my 2017 Speed Queen is not as well designed, although I use it frequently for small-to-medium loads. In those circumstances, I don't notice much of a difference between the effectiveness of spray rinses vs. a deep rinse and it reduces water usage substantially.
Of course, the difference lies in the fact that a "classic" spray rinse was never meant to be the only rinse. They were merely the prelude to a deep rinse.
GE filter-flo
I disagree. Even with a super sudsy small load of laundry, there were no suds during the deep rinse cycle. We've always had a water softener when we moved and used washday powdered laundry soap that came with it as a promotional package. It did leave a fresh smell in the clothes. We mostly used the normal speed and regular cycle.
I disagree. Even with a super sudsy small load of laundry, there were no suds during the deep rinse cycle. We've always had a water softener when we moved and used washday powdered laundry soap that came with it as a promotional package. It did leave a fresh smell in the clothes. We mostly used the normal speed and regular cycle.
eurekastar
Well-known member
I always assumed that the one minute spray rinse in my Maytag A608 was to knock down suds before the deep rinse. That makes sense to me because of the higher sudsing detergents that were in use at one time. However, my old Whirlpool DD utilized a series of spray rinses AFTER the deep rinse. That made no sense to me, especially when a fabric softener was used.
I agree.
Especially when using a downy ball. At least the softener in the filter-flo still has a chanced to be mixed during the deep rinse.
Especially when using a downy ball. At least the softener in the filter-flo still has a chanced to be mixed during the deep rinse.
I experienced the same thing with a Kenmore as Bob & David explained. This was the washer before I bought my current 2015 SQ. It was frustrating to always have to use the 2nd rinse on virtually all the loads, Lord-only-knows how much water I used in the years of owning it. Only one 10 second spray after the deep rinse. Had to be careful of the amount of soap used, or I would never get all the soap out. I felt the neutral drain contributed to the problem, as rinse water suds would redeposit back onto the clothes. Washing heavy towels was the worst, and at one point I got the garden hose out and sprayed the heck out of those towels on the spin cycle, finally that got me ahead of the game, suds. I did this on more than one occasion. Luckily the washer caught on fire, motor smoking and all on the spin cycle (tub froze) and I got rid of it in quick order. And I told the delivery guys not to try and fix it for resale once they got it back to the shop, wasn't worth it. Hated that washer.
Barry
Barry
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