Stanley "Tookie" Williams is executed.

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This is one topic that me and my dem/lib friends just don't see eye to eye about (I consider myself liberal, trust me), but no one should be so offended that they would want to take a break from coming to this wonderful board.

In my short time here I know I would miss people if they left (of course not permanently).

And I too agree with Toggle, it is interesting to see the different opinions of America in a friendly atmosphere. Too often I think these topics cannot be discussed amicably.

No one leave, k?
 
Barbarians and the like

"Revenge is what our enemies do; what barbarians do."

Do barbarians have someone lie face down and then shoot them in the back----twice with a sawed off shotgun?

"Or to put it bluntly, your position is not very well thought out and it leads to a moral travesty."

Is it a moral travesty to have someone lie face down and then shoot them in the back----twice with a sawed off shotgun?

"In fact it's a messy, smelly, deeply disturbing experience."

Is it a messy, smelly, deeply disturbing experience to have someone lie face down and then shoot them in the back----twice with a sawed off shotgun?

"Just say it out loud: I don't care that innocent people die."

When the innocent young man had to lie face down and then be shot in the back----twice with a sawed off shotgun, did the killer think, I don't care that I'm killing an innocent person?

Life without the possibility of parole? Fine by me but, please use only your tax dollars and NOT mine. Thank you.
 
Good idea Charlie!

Maybe those that are anti-death penalty could check off a little box on their income tax returns to financially support the barbarians that are LPWP (life in prison w/o parole).
 
oh dear......

I wasn't going to say anything. IT IS such a long story. Here is the VERY short version. <p> I had a cousin that was tried for the murder of his wife. He was convicted. I believe in his innocence. I wont go into why, but my reasons are more than just the blood relation reasons. He did not do it, and that is THAT. He spent twenty years of his life behind bars. Even in prison he maintained his innocence. The parole board would not parole him for that reason. They thought he could not be sorry for what he did if he would not take responsibilty for what he did. HE always maintianed his innocence. Finally there was a change of heart in the parole board. He was recently paroled. Had the State of Kansas had the death penalty at that time, they would have killed an innocent man. <p> I used to be a STRONG believer in the death penalty. Not anymore. If there is a chance of just ONE person being wrongly convicted by the state because of faults in our justice system, Then I say no. <p> Here is a link to a story wrote by a prominent writer in L.A. He covered the story when it happened. After 20 years and Tom still maintaining his innocence, he was moved to write this story later. If any one has any questions, I'll be happy to answer them. Just please email. I'd rather it not become a discussion here. Thanks. Tom

http://www.latimes.com/features/pri...02,1,7372605.story?coll=la-headlines-magazine
 
I have to chime in with my two cents worth here. If our judicial system were 100% foolproof, then I would most likely support the death penalty. However, if one person is wrongly executed, that's one too many for me. And the taxpayer arguments carry no weight with me. I am single/zero with nothing to deduct and the government rapes me financially. But saying it's okay that innocent people could mistakenly be put to death because it keeps my tax dollars from supporting the true incarcerated criminals is so indicative of what's wrong with our society as a whole. It's putting a monetary value on human life and it's twisted.

I'm old enough that these things should no longer amaze me. I keep looking for the good in people and it seems to no longer be there.
 
Tom:

I am so deeply sorry about your family's tragedy. I detest injustice of any kind. Unfortunately the incidents of sloppy police work and prosecutors that are too eager to go to court compromises cases both ways; innocent people may be convicted of crimes they did not commit and criminals walk away on "technicalities".
 
I am horrified at what I have read here. I would have expected a few people to express support for revenge killing but to have such a strong majority makes me sick.

How many of you have seen the story of the Lindy Chamberlain case, I think the movie was called Evil Angels and starred Meryl Streep. It is a true story.

In the 70's the Chamberlain family were camping in the outback in central Australia. Their daughter went missing, the mother, Lindy, said she saw a dingo (Australian native dog) leaving the tent. A body has never been found. She was not believed and after a lengthy trial which divided the opinions of the nation, she and her husband were convicted of the murder of their daughter. The family were seventh day adventists, an uncommon religion here which further inflamed suspicion and ignorance against them. They also had two young sons. The rumours circulated around the nation, a lot of nonsense about her coming across as cold and uncaring (probably still in shock) and about the daughter's name Azaria meaning something satanic, and about the possibility that the daughter may have been disabled, as a motive.

Lindy was sentenced to (I think) life imprisonment, her husband Michael (I think) a lesser term as an accomplice. We do NOT have the death penalty in this country. Michael appealed and was released. Lindy appealed and the conviction remained. Lindy spent several years in jail. Eventually after an appeal to federal courts (she was convicted in the Northern Territory "state" system) her conviction was overturned as it turned out the forensic evidence against her was a concoction by a police department who manufactured evidence because the real evidence did not support what they were so certain of. The most glaring error, and a crucial piece of evidence used to convict her, was a claim by a forensic examiner that traces of infant blood (referred to as foetal blood in the media even though Azaria was a baby not a foetus) was found under the dashboard of the Chamberlain's car. The so-called expert swore in court that his expertise enabled him to identify that the blood traces under the dashboard were from a child of Azaria's age. After Lindy spent about ten years in jail, a re-examination of the blood samples showed it wasn't blood at all, but a rust preventative applied in the factory when the car was made. Lindy was freed after the Federal appeal overturned her conviction.
It is some irony to me that the now freed Lindy left Australia and now lives in Texas, which executes more people per year than any other government in the world except for communist China.

Although I am no longer religious (amongst many other things, because so many loud vehement Christians are right wingers and act so strongly contrary to the teachings of the man they profess to follow), but when so many executions are carried out in strongly Christian communities and with the approval of so many Christian churches, I am reminded of what I learnt when I was a regular churchgoer, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", and "Vengeance is MINE saith the Lord."

Chris.
 
Sensitve people DON'T read this, Rated PG-13

PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE

Let us not judge others' opinions but rejoice in our own.

Go back and look. Toggle said a little something but did not expose himeself. (Er, his opinion that is). Too hot an issue for public consumption, IMHO.

Opinions are like @$$holes, everyone has one; and some REALLY stink.

Here is how I survive in this complex world being from a city that literally has the most diverse population in the country (Hello Queens County, NYC.. LOL). I have seen it ALL, good and bad TWICE. [Me thinks I love me a bit TOO much, but that is probably best saved for another thread!]

IF IT DOESN'T DIRECTLY TOUCH MY LIFE I REFUSE TO GIVE IT ANY WORRY. (Not thought; worry).

I don't have to agree with you, I dont have to like you, I don't have to associate with you. But I have to repsect your right to exist (and to fart stupidity, if that is the case, into the universe. Dontcha LOVE that word fart? Sometimes it stinks sometimes it don't, but damn you can't always hold it back from squeeking out).

Back to the issue
But I DO have to give you a "Good-morning,sir" a piece of bread, a glass of water, a blanket, and $2 to get on the subway if/when you get robbed.

So in summary..IMHO don't let other opinion hurts. Que sera, sera. It's a big, big country, someobody has to furnish it (thank you IKEA) with ideas.

....and ALWAYS consider the source. It is tons of fun to sit and reconcile an opinion with the source; things like language, ethnicity, zip code and education-level in mind.
THEN when you hear something that is distasteful (read: NAUSEATINGLY GROSS AND UNINFORMED) to you you can, say well at least it makes sense based on that person's experience in life.

I apologize profusely for ramming MY limited opinions down everyone's throat. Read this, then push the little flush lever to rid your mind of the C - - P just read.

I love you all; just the way you are (you twisted B - - - - -DS!)
 
Said: but to have such a strong majority makes me sick.

The non-supportive may not have posted.
We can not assume, based on the above panels/posts that the majority favors this.

DONT GET OFFENDED:
BUT why does it comfort us when we feel OUR opinion is in the majority. Could that be EGO? and this in not directed to ANY ONE person, but said as a general statement.

There are religious figures in the past that were a "majority" of one... me thinks THEY were enlightened while the masses were not (af first). The majority may THINK it is RIGHT...but the reality MAY differ.

Jsut an opinion. No hate-mail, please.
 
For the most part, I support our judicial system (and it's sentences). It is one of the best and most equitable in the world. If special interest groups weren't trying to change the Constitution every five minutes, it would work much more efficiently.

Judeo-Christian principles are applied to our judicial system, which may explain why some Christians support the death penalty. However, please note that the Koran advocates swift and harsh punishment for even the smallest of crimes.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"...Unfortunately the murderers cast the first stone by acting as judge, jury, and executioner.
 
Venus, you didn't answer my question I think. It's a fact that in a system with the death penalty innocent people are convicted and executed. That's how it was and that's how it still is. My question to you is, do you support that? Do you support that innocent people run the risk of being executed for crimes they didn't commit?
 
Louis,

Yes I do. Because of the seemingly never-ending appeals process, I feel that the risk of innocent people actually being executed is minimal. With today's DNA testing and other extensive tests, that risk decreases even more.

I am not a bloood thirsty barbarian. I do believe in justice for the people that I consider "innocent"; crime victims. Persons on death row have been convicted and sentenced by a judge and jury of their peers who deemed that there was no "reasonable doubt" as to the charges against the defendant.

If you poll a cross-section of Americans, you will probably find that all are fed up with crime, light sentences, and dangerous convicted criminals being released back into society to commit their violent acts again and again. Believe me, there have been more murderers "accidentally" released than innocent persons have been executed. To me the Jeffrey Dahmers, Ted Bundies, and the like have no place on this earth.
 
just for the record

I do not support the death penalty.

I had to post this because, most people in this country and in this state are for the penalty, but many of us do oppose it.

I support our Governor (Schwarzenegger)in most positions he has taken, including this one. He must hold up the law. I would do the same in his position.

In our time, it is virtually impossible to run for office if you oppose the death penalty. Kathleen Brown ran for Governor a few years back and lost, mostly because of that.

Most of my readings on the subject point out that death penalty cases cost much more to try, and the whole system makes it much more expensive than life without parole.

And I agree that there are some people who have done such horrible things that they certainly do not deserve to share this earth with the rest of us. I would like to kill Osama Bin Laden for what he did to this country, for instance. But I consider that to be a war related act, and I certainly would protect myself if attacked either personally or if my country is attacked.

Martin
 
Venus,

I didn't hold you for a blood thirsty barbarian, but I wanted to know if you realized the ultimate consequence of your opinion. I do think though that the risk of innocent people dying through the death penalty is underestimated. Systems are run by people and people make mistakes. Overhere two men were convicted even because of DNA material. After eight years in prison the real offender confessed because he felt guilty about those men in prison. The other two just had been in the wrong place at the wrong moment leaving DNA material behind.

I'm glad though that we don't have the death penalty in the Netherlands (I think all Western European countries abolished it). I'm convinced that it doesn't work as a deterrent, actually comparing crime rates between countries with and without show the opposite. Designgeek writes in the thread about the riots in Australia: "just as we would hope others around the world don't take our astronomical crime rate as being "typical" of Americans". As a matter of fact we do think those crime rates are typical American. Especially people entering public places and commiting mass murders is something we associate with the US. I can't remember something like that happening here.

There is one thing that intrigues me. I'm not religious, call me a heathen. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I have the impression that Christians seem to have the more extreme opinion here, even sometimes rather hateful. I thought that Christianity was all about forgiveness, but I guess I was wrong about that.

Louis
 
Louis, i can tell you from personal experience that people who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ are not hateful in the least. Yes i have run across many "holier than thou" types in my life.

People who truly take to heart the words of Christ message are some of the kindest,straightforward, helpful, caring people i have ever had the pleasure to meet and know. Don't let a few rotten apples spoil the bunch: A tree is known by it's fruit.

It all comes down to in the end whether you are a believer or not.
 
foraloysius

For the record, I consider myself a weak athiest and I believe in the death penalty.

Also, to answer any possible questions, I grew up in San Diego, CA and consider myself a Chicana feminist and liberal, but still believe in the death penalty.

All walks of life... ;)
 
Louis,

Christians do believe in forgiveness. It can be viewed like this: A child commits a misdeed. The child is forgiven by the parents, but punishment must still be doled out. There are those that have been executed that have asked for their victim's family's forgiveness and, in some cases, have received it. This does not mean that they should not be punished for their crime.

You can find extremists in any religion. I personally feel that hate has no place in religion. But we are not talking hate here. We are talking about punishment for crimes committed against man. I think it is unfortunate that anyone would believe that most Christians are hateful because they support the death penalty as a punishment for murder. That would be like saying that all athiests are hateful because they are pro-choice. Generalizations aren't always accurate.

PeteK: I'll take that slice of cake and a big ol' mug of (caffeinated) coffee please. ;-)
 
WWJD and WWYD?

Also, to answer any possible questions, I grew up in Queens, NY and consider myself a Griega/gringa feminist and liberal, but still believe in being FABULOUS and all I can be.

As the song goes..you can't please everyone so you got to please yourself.

SO NOW EVERYBODY KISS AND MAKE UP AND LET'S GET BACK TO DROOLING OVER AGITATORS, TURNOVER AND PHOSPHATES eh?
 
TOGGLE HAS SPOKEN....

and if ANYONE dares utter poltics at the AZ wash-in in my illustrious presence, my mules,CFM Pumps and or stillettos are gonna get winged across the room and I will poke your GD eyes out. PROMISE.

Yes I said POKE. No it ain't dirty. :-)
 
hi everyone....but my nephew admitted to "being responsible for his parent's death" after he murdered them over money to pay off his drug dealers....and he never expressed any remorse...actually, i even heard him say "well, OJ (simpson) got off"....and he only got sentence of 25 years to life...i believe he should have gotten life without parole or death penalty....i hope scott peterson is executed soon but i am sure that he too will spend years on death row...
 
Please Join the Venus W. Fan-club; truly a goddess.

OMG Louis-
Now I just realized there are THREE things I dont do.
YAY!

(Venus does EVERYTHING NICE IMHO; and make NO mistake there is not once ounce/millligram of innuendo in that).

:-)
 
Sometimes, an accident can be an unhappy woman's best fr

Ross:

All I'm sayin' is.. we don't need to know if you feel the need to espouse your nephew or shun him. That is YOUR business alone. But G-d don't like ugly. You never know how (s)he may plan the nephew's utimely /advanced demise.

I DO know there IS justics in the universe and we often don't have to lift a finger.

My uncle by marriage was a real POS and had a nasty mouth and attitude. He molested my two sisters,(which took years to come out). The point is G-d took my aunt back to heaven before him (which we see as a blessing for her); then wiped out ALL of his family.

Just for good measure my uncle was granted a massive stroke and lost all his English (50+ yrs here), his ability to speak, and he is il-literate in BOTH languages. Could not comuniciate in writing, neitha. Nasty mouth huh? Resolved.

SO that all said, yet another verse from an ethnic song comes to mind (GRUNT,GROAN, I know....). EVERYTHING YOU DO GETS PAID-FOR HERE. I firmly believe this.Forgive me for being so blunt- ALL kinds of accidents happen in prison.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109642/
 
and I hope all of you see that as I intend the above as justice/hope/faith in what is right and due, not revenge.

We must forgive, we are not obligated to forget.
If we don't forgive it eats US away.
 

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