Stanley "Tookie" Williams is executed.

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The quote "Let the punishment fit the crime" is from Fyodor Dostoevsky's novel, "Crime and Punishment", and it is exactly the term I used in my "Victim's Impact Statement". A reporter who was at my nephew's sentencing said it was even used by the judge who would not lower sentence from 25 years to life for brutally murdering his parents. Patricide is what it is called. The Menendez brothers got life without parole. Why do we have to support these people for the rest of their lives in a country club prison? Wonder where your tax dollars are going?
I heartily suppost Sheriff Joe Arpaio here in Maricopa County, Arizona who runs a prison where prisoners have to WORK, they live in tents, and he makes them wear pink underwear. Sheriff Joe says that prisoners do NOT have any rights. One prisoner protested that Sheriff Joe would not let him receive a subscription to Playboy magazine, but Sheriff Joe said prisoners do NOT have rights. He gets my vote.
 
Sheriff Joe is great! I also support him. I remember a few years back he was asked "Why do you let your prisoners have televisions with only two channels?" and he responded "Well, I want them to have C-Span so they know what's going on in the world and The Weather Channel so they know how hot it's going to be when they're outside working." How great is that?

Like most people here, I'm in favor of the death penalty. If you were willing to do such a horrendous crime that would consider you a good candidate for such a punishment, then you deserve it.
 
All I got to say is...

HANG 'EM HIGH!

I'm for the death penalty as well. BUT, before making that huge judgement, I'd do some serious DNA testing and investigation well before the decision. And when found guilty, bye bye.

They should bring back the old fashioned methods, like the chair, hanging, gas chamber, firing squad (would be perfect for Mr. Tookie). And here's the kicker, they should execute these criminals on national television. That's right, public execution. That's what I think will scare the hell out of these and future scumbags.

Prisons don't fix criminals. Just listen to the Johnny Cash LP "Live At Folsom Prison" on the end of track 4. Turn up the volume and you can hear a new inmate being violated by 3 thugs. Yes, it's really there. No, just kidding. But after all the adrenaline of a JC concert, how many did get violated afterwards.

Inside the walls of prison, my body may be
But the Lord has set my soul free...
 
Revenge is what makes people hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings, blow themselves up on subways, and keep the flames of hatred burning from one generation to the next to the next until no one remembers where it really began.

Revenge is what our enemies do; what barbarians do. Although it is sometimes what we or our leaders do in a moment of thoughtlessness or anger or expedient political hubris, that does not change the fact that it has no place in the life of a civilized person or a civilized society.

The purpose of criminal law is to protect society from criminals. There is no evidence that the death penalty does this better than LWOP (life w/o parole), regardless of the swiftness of the punishment. Given the number of cases where DNA testing has shown that innocent people were sentenced to death for crimes they did not commit, the burden of proof is upon those who favor the death penalty, not upon those who oppose it.

There is no doubt that Tookie was a sociopathic scumbag when he committed those murders and for many years thereafter. He may have been a sociopathic scumbag right up to his last minute on earth for all we really know. He should have been locked up for life and forgotten, to die in ignominy at the time of God's choosing rather than man's. And if he did truly reform himself, no one would have stopped him counseling other prisoners to clean up their own lives while he spent the rest of his in a cage.

But his death sentence turned him into a celebrity, and his execution turned into a public circus, and the families of his victims did not get the closure they expected. All of this was predictable. And none of it made any of us the least bit safer.
 
IMHO

The "cause de jour" folks started the publicity on this one. I personally feel that the date of scheduled executions should be kept inside the prison walls. The murderer should be marched into the death chamber at an arbitrary date designated by prison officials. In addition, witnesses should be prison officials only. A letter to the victims' families could be sent out advising them that the convict had been executed. I don't think the "big announcement" in the media warrants space or air time. I could give a rat's $@% what the s.o.b. ate for his last meal or what his last words were.

These executions bring no joy to anyone. They may not even be a deterent. They do however, bring some closure. At least it prevents a group like the California Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals from releasing them back into society.
 
Personally, I think if the system was swifter with the death penalty (of course doing everything necessary to insure guilt before execution), then the death penalty would actually help insure our safety.

With more inmates sentenced to death that would mean more room in the prisons which would imply less "bad" people on the streets that could harm society.
 
I'm against it

I'm actually quite radically against the death penalty. All societies that used the capital punishment have killed innocent people. People like you and me. There is no state that can guarantee that those mistakes won't be made.

Just imagine tonight when you're in bed that tomorrow you will be killed for something you didn't do. It always hurts when you are being accused wrongly for something, doesn't it. Just imagine you will be the one on that table tomorrow. What will be your thoughts when that needle is approaching you? What were the thoughts of the innocent people in front of a firing squad or on the electric chair or with a rope around their neck?

When you're in favor of the death penalty you choose for the risk of innocent people being killed. Just say it out loud: I don't care that innocent people die...

Louis
 
I must say I'm shocked by some of the ideas expressed here. Secret executions? Televised executions? Executions performed swiftly with no chance of appeal? When did applianceville relocate to Saudi Arabia?

The right to protest AND appeal is guaranteed under the US constitution. If you think that's too messy, or makes you feel all angry, that's just too bad.

State administered death should never a cause for celebration. It's something that should be done after sober deliberation, and performed with as much dignity and as painlessly as possible - or we become as bad as the murderer we are executing.

It's been my unfortunate luck to have been present at the death of several people - a few of which were complete strangers to me. It's not a pretty experience: In fact, it's a messy, smelly, deeply disturbing experience. To propose that we should televise death, no matter how "deserved" it is, is just sick.

I think I'm going to have to take a vaction from this site for a while. It's not very Christmasy around here.
 
Louis: Exactly.

There are five countries that execute people for crimes committed when they were juveniles. Iran and Pakistan are on that list; I think China and North Korea are two of the others. And we're on that list.

Judged by the company we keep, I'd say that stinks to high heaven.

We are also the only Western industrialized nation that continues the death penalty.

And it does not produce closure. It produces a false hope for a cathartic experience that never comes. The entire premise of catharsis is based on the idea that drama leads to the resolution of tension, which is simply incorrect on fact. Read the interviews with victims' families. They don't get the closure they were hoping for.

On the other hand, if the sentence is LWOP, then the day you see the man marched out of the courtroom in handcuffs, is the day you know your ordeal is OVER and you can get on with your life because the perp will never ever ever walk the streets again. That's not catharsis, but it is closure.

And in case anyone here is wondering, yes, people in my immediate family have been victims of violent crime, and even of terrorism. I'm not going to go into those details in public. But I will say that war is not the same case as criminal prosecution; and also that the laws of war exist for a reason and should be followed, including the Geneva Conventions and all the rest of it. Ask any commissioned officer about those points.

Brneyedgrl80, if you're saying you think we should use executions to make more room in prisons for other inmates, I dare you to do the arithmetic to support your position. The numbers you will need are the number of criminals that would have to be executed each year to make room for keeping the rest of the criminals locked up for life. Where that takes us is down the short path to barbarianism. Or, to put it bluntly, your position is not very well thought out, and leads to a moral travesty.

If you want to free up prison space for serious baddies, I suggest you go read the writings of retired San Jose Police Chief Joseph McNamara, who is presently with the very-conservative Hoover Institution. Start here:

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www-hoover.stanford.edu

To quote from that page: "During his tenure [as San Jose police chief], San Jose (the third-largest city in California and the eleventh largest in the United States) became the safest city in the country, despite having the fewest police per capita."

Safest city in the United States. That's what we call track-record.
 
Said: I think I'm going to have to take a vaction from this site for a while. It's not very Christmasy around here

Oh Dan. Dont! We would miss you.

Part of the joy thatthis site (for me anyway) is I get to see how REAL America thinks, cause NYC is NOT in any way reflective of the majority.

I don't like a lot of it, I don't agree with a lot of it. But I defend your/their right to say it, feel it, think it and express it.

I TAKE nothing here personally, and that works for me.

WE LOVE YOU DAN as we all love each-other dearly. I would not give this site up for anyone. And BELIEVE me it was a nail in the coffin of my LTR. (long-term relationship).

COME BACK SOON. SERIOUSLY
 
Race Cards are always Distasteful

The fact that there were fears of rioting due to the execution of a CONVICTED beyond a shadow of a doubt criminal makes me crenge. It is kind of a mother of a bully or brat that will never correct or disipline the child, her child can do no wrong. The kid is never held accountable and usually grows up to be a larger version of his child self. Race is no longer an issue CULTURE is the problem. "TOOKIE" took lives, "TOOKIE" needed to be "took"...
 
This is one topic that me and my dem/lib friends just don't see eye to eye about (I consider myself liberal, trust me), but no one should be so offended that they would want to take a break from coming to this wonderful board.

In my short time here I know I would miss people if they left (of course not permanently).

And I too agree with Toggle, it is interesting to see the different opinions of America in a friendly atmosphere. Too often I think these topics cannot be discussed amicably.

No one leave, k?
 
Barbarians and the like

"Revenge is what our enemies do; what barbarians do."

Do barbarians have someone lie face down and then shoot them in the back----twice with a sawed off shotgun?

"Or to put it bluntly, your position is not very well thought out and it leads to a moral travesty."

Is it a moral travesty to have someone lie face down and then shoot them in the back----twice with a sawed off shotgun?

"In fact it's a messy, smelly, deeply disturbing experience."

Is it a messy, smelly, deeply disturbing experience to have someone lie face down and then shoot them in the back----twice with a sawed off shotgun?

"Just say it out loud: I don't care that innocent people die."

When the innocent young man had to lie face down and then be shot in the back----twice with a sawed off shotgun, did the killer think, I don't care that I'm killing an innocent person?

Life without the possibility of parole? Fine by me but, please use only your tax dollars and NOT mine. Thank you.
 
Good idea Charlie!

Maybe those that are anti-death penalty could check off a little box on their income tax returns to financially support the barbarians that are LPWP (life in prison w/o parole).
 
oh dear......

I wasn't going to say anything. IT IS such a long story. Here is the VERY short version. <p> I had a cousin that was tried for the murder of his wife. He was convicted. I believe in his innocence. I wont go into why, but my reasons are more than just the blood relation reasons. He did not do it, and that is THAT. He spent twenty years of his life behind bars. Even in prison he maintained his innocence. The parole board would not parole him for that reason. They thought he could not be sorry for what he did if he would not take responsibilty for what he did. HE always maintianed his innocence. Finally there was a change of heart in the parole board. He was recently paroled. Had the State of Kansas had the death penalty at that time, they would have killed an innocent man. <p> I used to be a STRONG believer in the death penalty. Not anymore. If there is a chance of just ONE person being wrongly convicted by the state because of faults in our justice system, Then I say no. <p> Here is a link to a story wrote by a prominent writer in L.A. He covered the story when it happened. After 20 years and Tom still maintaining his innocence, he was moved to write this story later. If any one has any questions, I'll be happy to answer them. Just please email. I'd rather it not become a discussion here. Thanks. Tom

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www.latimes.com
 
I have to chime in with my two cents worth here. If our judicial system were 100% foolproof, then I would most likely support the death penalty. However, if one person is wrongly executed, that's one too many for me. And the taxpayer arguments carry no weight with me. I am single/zero with nothing to deduct and the government rapes me financially. But saying it's okay that innocent people could mistakenly be put to death because it keeps my tax dollars from supporting the true incarcerated criminals is so indicative of what's wrong with our society as a whole. It's putting a monetary value on human life and it's twisted.

I'm old enough that these things should no longer amaze me. I keep looking for the good in people and it seems to no longer be there.
 
Tom:

I am so deeply sorry about your family's tragedy. I detest injustice of any kind. Unfortunately the incidents of sloppy police work and prosecutors that are too eager to go to court compromises cases both ways; innocent people may be convicted of crimes they did not commit and criminals walk away on "technicalities".
 
I am horrified at what I have read here. I would have expected a few people to express support for revenge killing but to have such a strong majority makes me sick.

How many of you have seen the story of the Lindy Chamberlain case, I think the movie was called Evil Angels and starred Meryl Streep. It is a true story.

In the 70's the Chamberlain family were camping in the outback in central Australia. Their daughter went missing, the mother, Lindy, said she saw a dingo (Australian native dog) leaving the tent. A body has never been found. She was not believed and after a lengthy trial which divided the opinions of the nation, she and her husband were convicted of the murder of their daughter. The family were seventh day adventists, an uncommon religion here which further inflamed suspicion and ignorance against them. They also had two young sons. The rumours circulated around the nation, a lot of nonsense about her coming across as cold and uncaring (probably still in shock) and about the daughter's name Azaria meaning something satanic, and about the possibility that the daughter may have been disabled, as a motive.

Lindy was sentenced to (I think) life imprisonment, her husband Michael (I think) a lesser term as an accomplice. We do NOT have the death penalty in this country. Michael appealed and was released. Lindy appealed and the conviction remained. Lindy spent several years in jail. Eventually after an appeal to federal courts (she was convicted in the Northern Territory "state" system) her conviction was overturned as it turned out the forensic evidence against her was a concoction by a police department who manufactured evidence because the real evidence did not support what they were so certain of. The most glaring error, and a crucial piece of evidence used to convict her, was a claim by a forensic examiner that traces of infant blood (referred to as foetal blood in the media even though Azaria was a baby not a foetus) was found under the dashboard of the Chamberlain's car. The so-called expert swore in court that his expertise enabled him to identify that the blood traces under the dashboard were from a child of Azaria's age. After Lindy spent about ten years in jail, a re-examination of the blood samples showed it wasn't blood at all, but a rust preventative applied in the factory when the car was made. Lindy was freed after the Federal appeal overturned her conviction.
It is some irony to me that the now freed Lindy left Australia and now lives in Texas, which executes more people per year than any other government in the world except for communist China.

Although I am no longer religious (amongst many other things, because so many loud vehement Christians are right wingers and act so strongly contrary to the teachings of the man they profess to follow), but when so many executions are carried out in strongly Christian communities and with the approval of so many Christian churches, I am reminded of what I learnt when I was a regular churchgoer, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", and "Vengeance is MINE saith the Lord."

Chris.
 

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