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A response from a TRUE conservative

As one of the few conservatives on this wonderful site,I just gotta jump in.First,a true conservative is all about freedom-freedom FROM big government.The current crop of Republicans are not true conservatives-just look at the federal budget.In fact,from a conservative point of view,Senator McCain is in fact a Democrat,while Senator Obama is in reality a Socialist.Listen carefully to his remarks-not others interpretation of them,but directly from him.We have been on a course-slowly-toward Socialism for 70 years,and the election of Senator Obama will greatly accelerate that trend.I simply do not want to go in that direction.It has nothing to do with "hating"Senator Obama.If he came to my door he would be treated respectfully and given any comfort my home could offer-but not my vote.
Don't confuse the majority of Republicans with true conservatives on social issues either.True conservatives don't care what people do,as long as it does not hurt someone else.
Finally,it comes down to the size and cost of government.I make no apology for working hard to provide my family(and myself)with nice things. I make no apology for resenting the fact that all the taxes I pay exceed 50% of my income,and a lot of that money is given to those who choose not to produce.The word"entitlement"makes my blood boil.All any of us is"entitled"to is the opportunity to succeed.My government-which is supposed to protect me-is in fact robbing me.
 
"Entitlement"

....there's that word that I just hate...makes my blood boil. Way too many "entitled" people around these days.
 
Response to the true conservative, from a true liberal

>As one of the few conservatives on this wonderful site,I just gotta jump in.First,a true conservative is all about freedom-freedom FROM big government.<

Actually that's the textbook definition of a liberal: one who advocates personal liberty, personal responsibility and freedom from intrusive government.

> The current crop of Republicans are not true conservatives-just look at the federal budget.In fact,from a conservative point of view,Senator McCain is in fact a Democrat,while Senator Obama is in reality a Socialist.<

The current crop of Republicans are not Democrats, they're Neoconservative totalitarians. Some are fascists. Proof of this claim is easy to come by: They're trying to intrude government into every nook and cranny of our lives, from women's uteruses to gay people's bedrooms. For the last several years Mr. Bush has even been intruding it (illegally) into our phone conversations, banking and passport records.

> Listen carefully to his remarks-not others interpretation of them,but directly from him.We have been on a course-slowly-toward Socialism for 70 years,and the election of Senator Obama will greatly accelerate that trend.<

That's a media scare tactic which anyone who actually has listened to Obama knows is complete nonsense. Republicans, just in the 12 years they held control of Congress expanded our federal government more and plunged us into deeper debt than the so-called "socialist" "tax and spend" Democrats did in the 40+ years they held control of Congress. That's a simple fact, and it's one of the main reasons Republicans were thrown out on their asses in 2006.

> I simply do not want to go in that direction.It has nothing to do with "hating"Senator Obama.If he came to my door he would be treated respectfully and given any comfort my home could offer-but not my vote.
Don't confuse the majority of Republicans with true conservatives on social issues either.True conservatives don't care what people do,as long as it does not hurt someone else.
Finally,it comes down to the size and cost of government.I make no apology for working hard to provide my family(and myself)with nice things. I make no apology for resenting the fact that all the taxes I pay exceed 50% of my income,and a lot of that money is given to those who choose not to produce.The word"entitlement"makes my blood boil.All any of us is"entitled"to is the opportunity to succeed.My government-which is supposed to protect me-is in fact robbing me.<

That's the standard string of outrageous mistruths and half-truths spouted by the Republican Party. Do you know who has universal healthcare? Iraq and Afghanistan. And who's paying for it? We are. Our hospitals, highways etc are falling apart, but guess who has brand new hospitals and highways? Yep, same answer. Who's paying for it? Same answer.

Remember the bankruptcy "reform" of 2005? Republicans passed this poor-bashing obscenity two weeks before they voted to forgive $90 billion in debts from foreign countries.

So we arrive at the main reason Republicans were booted out of Congress in 2006, and will continue to be booted out this November: an obscene and relentless perversion of priorities.

The claim that America's elderly and disabled, the ones who're taking the major bulk of entitlement money, "choose not to produce" is something straight out of the Third Reich. What are you saying, we should fire up the ovens?

These people are simply taking back their own money, which they paid into the system (in most cases) for 30, 40 or more years. Social Security has been one of the most successful government programs in U.S. and world history, and a mere 3.5% increase in payroll taxes will keep the program solvent indefinitely.
 
Good rebuttal

JeffG,
Interesting and well written reply.I certainly did not count retirees as non-producers.As you pointed out,these people paid the price for their benefits.I was referring to those-and there are tens of millions-who make a career out of riding on the back of others.The problem is that SS is such a terrible investment.I could only wish I had my money even in a CD at 4% I would be miles ahead.I am self employed and have to pay both sides of SS.At age 50,I would now have SEVEN FIGURES in my account.As for the disability program,it's probably the most abused program we have.I have terminated two friendships lately over it-guys I thought were honest just decided they did not want to work anymore.

I must take exception with one thing you said-that liberals advocate personal responsibility.I say respectfully that that statement is 180 degrees off from reality.The fact is that personal IRRESPONSIBILITY is well rewarded by liberals-that is their power base.
I would have added one thing to the list of freedoms we want to enjoy-the freedom from excessive taxation and regulation.
 
"freedom FROM big government."
hows that going? The government has grown larger than ever in the last 8 years.

"conservative point of view"
The name is a contradiction. Something you will find often when talking to a republican.
Conservative = radical with no moral limits.
We the people = the 5% FINANCIALLY wealthiest
defending the people = defending corporations and the 5% above
No new taxes = tax cuts for those above at the expense of the rest.
We don't torture = we do it AND we enjoy it.
the disgusting list goes on.

"Senator McCain is in fact a Democrat"
are we delusional or trying to talk others into something?

"We have been on a course-slowly-toward Socialism"
Yes, and it was good. It is certainly better than FASCISM. You know what this don't you.
That is when government is in defense of business. When society is set around business. NOT ACCEPTABLE. and our society has definately been pushed in that direction.

"True conservatives don't care what people do,as long as it does not hurt someone else."
another contradiction. How Does the NRA fit into this? What with the rise in gun violence and school shooting. Virginia HELLO.

"I make no apology for working hard to provide my family(and myself)with nice things"
??? did anyone ask you to?

"I make no apology for resenting the fact that all the taxes I pay "
You should. A true PATRIOT pays their FAIR share for the maintenance and betterment of our society.

"the taxes I pay exceed 50% of my income,and a lot of that money is given to those who choose not to produce."
lol, Why am I doubting that you carry such a HEAVY burden.
and I am sure that most of that money you do pay goes right into the pockets of street bums and layabouts, not the BILLIONS of dollars that have been wasted in Iraq. NO.

"All any of us is"entitled"to is the opportunity to succeed"
people are ENTITLED to a lot more than that. Clean Air, Clean Water, good education, healthy relationship with family, etc. Life isn't just about career and making money.

"My government-which is supposed to protect me-is in fact robbing me."
I this one you might be right. Why then do republicans vote to not fund our governmental services like police and fire. Try and break the Unions for the Firefighters who have backed Barack? Your republican, why have republicans FAILED to protect our shipping ports? Why did our republican run government let the 9/11 event happen when they knew ahead of time that this event was planned. ITs documented.
Why, Mr. Hides in obscurity behind a blank profile. (anti-social)

"The problem is that SS is such a terrible investment."
really. It has served well ALL these years. It is still working that is why our blow-monkey pres and the other lame republicans tried to push for privatization in 2004 he got his ass handed to him.

"I could only wish I had my money even in a CD at 4% I would be miles ahead"
Let me explain what SS is since you were probably 'too busy making a living' or playing golf somewhere instead of getting a basic education.
Social Security is a Safety net for ALL people. If you don't need it than great, take that as a form of success FINANCIALLY anyway.
However there are millions of people who, for whatever reason, are not protected financially. And suffer from lack of bare minimum. These are people who need help and may well need help financially for the rest of their lives.

Maybe they are Military Veterans, Disabled, People who have been cheated out of their pensions because greedy corporate moves, or job elimations due to moving factories over seas(more greed), or technilogical changes in the work place or increases in efficiency in manufacturing. There are lots of reasons. We know that bush administration have skewed the unemployment numbers as well and in fact the unemployment at least twice what they claim. (surprise) and it is only going to get worse with this recession/depression.

"I have terminated two friendships lately over it"
Nobody wants to hear about your delusional sense of Moral Superiority. Money doesn't make you a better person. This is a clear act of judging someone based on money. sick.

"the list of freedoms we (there is that WE again, 5%?)want to enjoy-the freedom from excessive taxation and regulation"
Well if your are making over $1,000,000, you've got it. for now. You don't deserve it.

Don't bother with a phoney facade of niceity
"If he came to my door he would be treated respectfully and given any comfort my home"
and
"Interesting and well written reply"
and
"I say respectfully that"
no sale.

You claim you are age 50. Which means that in 1980 or so you were just at the ripe turning point of the reagan spurred corruption that was the 1980s. I remember as a teenager watching those 10 years older and up BASKing in the unbridled greed that was being encouraged at the time. Much as we have had in the last 8 years.
Society as a whole is distracted, be it with sex or encouraging greed, stupid cars, whatever, while the fox robs the henhouse (government).

It was only a matter of time that those that got a taste back then would want more. Only this time the end results are even worse than in 1989 or so.

People like you make me sick. I should think that people like you would be afraid for your lives. No wonder republicans support the NRA. It is only a matter of time that the general public will tolerate the abuse and inconsideration. And there is a whole hell of a lot more of 'the general public' than there are of your type.

If you actually are one in the minority FINANCIALLY 5% or so. You owe our society and don't forget it!

You may be FINANCIALLY wealthy, but in all the other areas of life, specifically of moral dignity, you are highly impoverished. But don't worry, I'm sure you can find someone to victimize, a disabled veteran to boot out of his hospital bed, someone to belittle so you can pump your ego and make your self feel better instead of actually doing something positive.




 
IndyMac is the 2nd biggest bank failure in our nations history.
To date.
More to follow ?
All I can think is I want wrap my hands around the neck of a greedy p.o.s. white trash, republican and squeeze.

But I,
don't need to do that.

I wouldn't want to be considered a 'whiner' lol
 
If you know your ex-friends are defrauding the government, have you reported them? It's your responsibility to do so.

I have several disabled friends, and in every case not only are they disabled, they were forced to hire lawyers, have hearings and wait TWO OR EVEN THREE YEARS to receive their due benefits. So I'm not sure how much tougher you think the approval process should be.

I'm not claiming fraud doesn't exist in this or any other major government program, but in general your stereotyping falls into the same cauldren of poor-bashing and ignorance that America's neo-right is now famous for: you know, the "crack moms squirting out babies" etc. In my experience most people who regurgitate this nonsense have never stepped foot in a county health clinic or welfare agency, or ever allowed facts to get in the way of their prejudgments.
 
Don't get me wrong...

I have nothing against Money.
I have had money, some money myself.

There are lots of wonderful, wonderful people who are worth Millions and perhaps Billions of dollars.

And they know their station in life.
They owe society and they go out of their WAY to act charitible.

just as there is good and BAD in EVERYTHING.
There are people with a little coin in their pocket and suddenly their former lowly self feels they can turn around and spew on everyone else.

New money is often undeserved money. And prior generations were not taught how to act with coin in pocket. These are the ________ who need a good ass kicking. or more properly a sitting down and educating of their station in life. That they are not King and can end up losing that coin too. Then they just might need that Social Security.
Oh my.
 
I'm not in the 5%

Nor am I a Republican-haven't been since the end of President Reagan's second term.I also think,as many of our other members do,that President Bush has made a mess of things.That can't be denied by any logical person.
I am not in the top 5% of income earners-but they do not deserve to be over taxed either.I don't hate them because they have more than I do.I don't want the government to go take their money and give it to me-I did not earn it and do not deserve it.
My income is somewhat above average in my area,and again being self employed I pay double SS-that is about 18%-before any actual income tax is paid.Add the property taxes,the sales taxes,the gas taxes,the income tax itself,and so on.
You state that everyone should pay their fair share,and on that we can agree-but I contend that there is nothing in any way fair about so much being taken.Obama said -I saw the clip-that using the tax code to"equalize income"was fine.He also said that anyone making above the average income should not mind having the excess taxed at a high rate.Pure Socialism.
A shame.
 
"He also said that anyone making above the average income should not mind having the excess taxed at a high rate.Pure Socialism. "

Yep, a gallon of milk costs a FINANCIALLY poor person just as much as some making $500,000 a year.

As was said earlier, we have a HUGE deficit. There are people collecting money for the sake of it. Money they will never need or use. They have an obligation, for the sake of the very society they live in to pay that down. Even if someone who is considered FINANCIALLY wealthy is taxed at 50% they are still RICH Financially. And have nothing BUT whining to do. Like a child on a sugar high wanting more candy.

Socialism with a certain Free market aspects works great.
I like EBAY. it is a free market.
I don't like big privately held banks and corporations like Chrysler getting bailouts. That is not a free market. That is Fascism. That's not acceptable.

After all republicans claim they want a FREE MARKET society, until things go wrong, then suddenly they change their story.
It's called hypocrisy. Another republican trait.
 
Mulls, the combined Reagan/Bush tax cuts were one of the largest transfers of wealth between classes, not only in U.S. history but in world history. Reagan's coattails are finally (FINALLY) coming to an end with Bush Jr, and the current disparity between America's rich and poor hasn't been this large since the Great Depression. 58% of American families are now living from paycheck to paycheck and cannot be squeezed any tighter.

IMO it's time to stop bashing our poor and middle class, and for America's ruling class to pay more (hopefully lots more) in taxes.

http://www.counterpunch.org/freeman05302003.html
 
I'm a simple man

so I try to keep it simple.JeffG,if you make twice as much money as I do,I think you should pay twice as much tax.Period.Not three times as much.Not four times as much.And that rate should be low.
Twenty years ago,due to my own stupidity,I was living in a car.I am not a stranger to hard times and not without compassion.However,I have no compassion for those who live their lives on the take as opposed to hustling.I have no education(maybe you guys can tell),never inherited anything,but have been able to make myself a self supporting,contributing member of society.If I can do it,anyone can.
 
Getting back to Starbucks...

Most of the stores in Pittsburgh are staying open, we will lose only 1 Starbucks store. Oddly enough, it is in one of the busier parts of town. Did you know that Pittsburgh is one of the highest coffee consuming coffee in the world? We really do like our coffee!

Oh, and a travel hint: Starbucks is in all of the service plazas on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. If you just walk over to the Burger King, you can get coffee for half the price. They don't have all the syrup flavors that Starbucks has, but it is strong enough to keep you awake.
 
People! Stop.

Honestly folks, you're all being unreasonable.

7080swisher, you're engaging in the same behavior that you claim that those on the other side of the aisle are doing.

Some of us here do believe that maximum personal freedom and minimum government interference in our lives (and minimum interference from big business for that matter) is a good thing.

The difficulty in the United States of America is that BOTH terms 'liberal' and 'conservative' have been co-opted by others.

Most liberals I know believe that you need government in your life to limit freedom of choice.

So do most conservatives.

Some of us just want to be left to live our lives in peace.

Most liberals I know want to be protected by unelected civil servants or elected politicians (elected by special itnerests don't ya know) from anything they don't like.

Most conservatives do too.

SOME OF US CALL OURSELVES LIBERTARIANS OR CONSERVATIVES OR LIBERALS IN THE OLD FORM OF THE TERM: Maximum personal freedom, minimal interference, personal responsibility.

Now, as for Starbucks: I personally dislike dark roast coffee so I don't think I've trafficed with STarbucks more than six times in my life - but I find it strange in my relatively small town in the western part of the Denver metro area should have THREE of them. Huh? (Also for the record: I don't even patronize independent coffee shops as they use roasts too dark. I prefer light to light medium roast, tend to buy A&P Eight O'clock from either safeway or sams club, and make it at home with a percolator!)

Nate
 
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