Stupid Neptune Tricks

[sudsmaster]

I was set to do a load of whites today in the Neptune 7500, and I realized it had been a while since I had run a load, so the hot water line needed to be purged.

But since the kitchen sink isn't all that close to the washer, but still on the same feeder line so that it sort of works to purge the washer hot water line, I decided to try a different method.

Before adding clothes, I put the Neptune into diagnostic mode. I then used the touch screen to turn on the hot water valve. I let the water run until it felt hot. Then I switched it off, and turned on the drain valve (open). I ran that until I could hear the familiar sound of the last bit of water draining out.

Then I switched the washer back to normal operation, loaded the laundry, selected a hot wash cycle, added detergent, and ran the cycle. I was rewarded in that the wash water was instantly hot (about 125F, heater is set to 135F). It drifted down a bit and activated the heater, but the heater has to work a lot less this way than it does if I purge at the sink - or worse - don't purge at all.

Of course, in some cases it is desirable to fill with warm or lukewarm water, to help prevent setting stains, but I was curious as to just how hot I could get the initial water at the washer. The diagnostic trick seems to be the answer, and it's probably the method I will use from here on out before a hot wash.

Thanks for humoring.

 

[appnut]

Rich, so similiar to what Glenn would do each time I ran a load in the F&P last December.

 

[DADoES]

I do that as a matter of standard procedure with my F&P. Being as it takes only a few gallons fill for the EcoActive wash, having the incoming flow be at the proper temperature immediately is an advantage. Diagnostic mode even reports the temperature in the water valve's mixing chamber, so I can tell when it's ready to go.

 

[sudsmaster]

Yes, the same screen where I can toggle the hot water valve and drain pump on/off also shows the incoming water temp and the sump temp. I will try that next time, as the water feels hot a minute or so before it reaches the actual maximum temp coming from the water heater, so monitoring the actual temp using the diagnostic screen would result in an even hotter initial fill. Anything over about 115 F is painful to touch, and anything over 120F can scald.

The Neptune control panel will even allow me to have the hot water valve open, and the drain pump working, at the same time. When I do this, the sump temp is a pretty good indication of the incoming water temp, as well.

 

[DADoES]

Yes, I can do pump and water at the same time. From where does the Neppy fill into the tub? Does the drum get doused, to help preheat it for less thermal loss? ... although it may not matter much with the internal heater.

In regards to 115°F, my IWL12 "targets" 115°F (46°C) as the incoming temp for warm. It doesn't mix in any cold on a Warm fill unless the incoming hot water is higher than 115°F ... which I set my tankless at 115°F for a warm fill. At my "normal" water heater setting of 102°F, the washer beeps an error after a couple mins and the display says "Help I'm not getting any hot water." It doesn't trigger a fault at 115°F. 115°F is quite warm, but doesn't feel 'painful' to me, and the resulting temp IN the tub when (EcoActive) fill is complete, after thermal absorption by the clothes and machine parts, is right about 105°F.

For Warm/Hot it targets 125°F. Warm/Cold is 95°F.

Those are default temps. There's an adjustment for -/+ 6°F in 1°F increments. Or maybe it's really °C. I think the adjustment screen says °F but the diagnostic screen reports temps in °C.

 

[sudsmaster]

OK, yes, the inlet is at the top of the drum, so it sort of showers the inner drum with water. Which is why I think it's best to do a purge without any laundry loaded.

The diagnostics screen gives a range for incoming water temp. It can vary from a five degree to a fifteen degree spread. The sump temp is more precise, down to the degree, but not sure if it's much more accurate. All the temps are in Fahrenheit - one possible advantage of a US-designed machine, at least for us measurement hold-outs (thermo-status-quo?)

The hot target temp is 130. The heater will switch on if the temp drops below 125, and switch off when it reaches 130. The warm water target temp is 105F. Even if the water heater is set to 120F or higher, the ATC function almost always seems to result in a sump temp that is below 100, which is the point where the heater will switch on. There will be this blast of cold water at the end of the fill that usually drops the temp too much. But it doesn't take too long to boost it to 105.

 

[mr_sparkle]

Im Curious

Why bother with this purge thig at all? Even if I need to use the boil wash, i just let mine fill up with whatever was in the pipes already , hot cold luke warm, no matter if i had just done a load or not used the machine for a while.

The internal heater just kicks in and heats the water to whatever temp you need. So is it just speed you wish to save by purging, so it starts the wash immediatly instead of waiting for it to heat the water internally?

 

[mattywashboy]

i do the same

however i do it with my washer and my dishwasher, because it has no automatic pre rinse on the cycle i use it launches straight into main wash. By ensuring there is hot water in the pipes it cuts down heating time.

 

[panthera]

with water being so expensive in Colorado

My folks can't do that...so they did the following. My dad laid in a well insulated line from the water heater to under the sink. From there to the dishwasher and from there to the washer.
They never run the washer for a hot load unless the dishwasher has gone through the pre-wash at least. And they never turn on the dishwasher until they have run water into a pail to wash the floors.
No water wasted, but everybody gets the hot water they want.
If you think C° is a pain in the neck, try dealing with "joule" instead of calorie. The rest of the metric system really makes life easier, not harder - but joule are so tiny that working with them is absurd.
The reason most folks in the US find metric so hard is because the manufacturers make it so. A liter is an easy thing to measure. So is a quart. But when you are told a liter is 0.91... of a quart you think it must be a nightmare to work with. Same with gramms and all the rest. The funny thing is, lots of folks wanted to abandon English Common when the US was born so as not to have an "English" system. Now the US is the only country left which hangs on to it...at enormous cost and in the (false) belief it is somehow "American".

 

[Designgeek]

The amount of energy it takes to heat water is the same whether the water is heated at the water heater, in an inline heater, or by the heater in the washer. So in fact there is no energy savings advantage to purging the cold before starting the laundry.

There may be advantages in terms of time savings (i.e. not waiting for an internal heater to bring the water up to a target point), and in terms of getting the sanitize cycle to work more quickly, but these are independent variables from energy consumption.

 

[sudsmaster]

Mr. Sparkle

Why purge the hot water line at all?

As pointed out, it doesn't really save energy. However, it might save on energy bills, because my water heater is gas and the internal water heater is electric, and electric water heating is much more expensive here than gas water heating. Howver, that consideration is minor.

It's more because with our 110 volt systems, it takes a long time to boost the water from 105 F to 130F. The cycle may nearly be over, or the heater may time out (a maximum of 30 minutes on time allowed) before the water reaches its target of 130F. So, if I want to be certain that the water will reach at least 125F for the major portion of the wash cycle, pre-purging is necessary.

 

[sudsmaster]

For Panthera

The current hot water line is insulated, but takes a rather circuitous route from the heater to the kitchen sink and laundry closet. I intend to replumb the lines at some future date, and make them more straightforward, but since the dishwasher is still a fair distance from the sink it will probably still be necesary to pre-purge the washer for full hot at the get-go.

But the main reason for the replumbing is to replace old, deteriorating, slowly clogging steel pipes with copper, to increase the water pressure at the tap (and avoid flooding). Also, I will be increasing the bore size from 1/2" to 3/4" for the main runs, with 1/2" feeders branching off for individual sinks/showers/toilets/appliances. In this way I hope to be able to take a shower and run the washer or flush a toilet without having to endure alternating blasts of ice or scalding water.

 

[panthera]

To Rich,

My, that sounds ambitious. I have to lay in some new water lines at my folk's place this summer. Want to come practice?

Seriously, if'n you have that much run, I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to get one of those re-circulating thingies which they have in the 'States now. They don't cost very much and only run when needed - but cut the water and energy loss (it is not true that energy is energy is energy; heating water twice to attain one use is definitely happening if you think it through) quite a bit. The water line has a "return" line to the water heater plumbed in to where it branches off of a long run to the individual users.
Shall I send you my plans so you can start being creative? (Or move, without a forwarding address...this is going to be one big project).

 

[tomturbomatic]

You want to be careful increasing the diameter of the hot water pipes. The amount of cold water that the larger pipes hold is significantly greater and you will waste a lot more water purging them. Anti scald valves in the showers will be a more consistent safeguard.

 

[sudsmaster]

Tom,

I realize that greater hot water pipe diameter will mean it will take more water to purge the line - but the increase in flow should compensate for that. Also, 3/4" copper type L is not that much wider than 1/2" steel, since copper pipe is measured from the OD and the type L (as I recall) is the thicker of the two copper pipes available. Also, the problem is not so much scalding, as it is insufficient hot water when the washer clicks on.

Panthera,

As I understand it, the reciculation is going all the time, with the added energy cost of a pump (this home is all on same level, so passive recirculation probably wouldn't work). There's also the energy lost from having heated water recirculating through pipes with less insulation and more surface area than the tank heater.

In any case, it's starting to look doubtful that I'll get to this plumbing work this summer... what with the broken ribs from the recent bike accident and all - so I'll also have to pass on offering to help you do your parents' home. I'm just hoping the pipes for the kitchen sink can hold out another year - the steel is steadily corroding and I've actually had to saw off the tip of the hot water nipple to get the shut off valve to seal properly. I figure if I have to rip up the wall below the sink, to fix that, I might as well replace all the steel with copper.