Tankless water heater: Love 'em? Hate 'em? Let's go to the phones!

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joeekaitis

joeekaitis

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Well, the seepage in the garage and the front porch seems to be coming from a leaky tank-type natural gas water heater.

Options: replace it with another tanker or slap in a snazzy tankless. The nearest Lowe's is offering a Bosch 1600H natural gas pilotless tankless heater for about $600 to which we'll have to add professional installation. It qualifies for the Federal $300 income tax credit. It also uses an unusual ignition system: the water turns a turbine generator that creates the spark that lights the burner. No standing pilot, no electrical connection needed.

The household, for now, is just Cathy and me, a dishwasher and a front-load washer.

Any thoughts on tankless? More hype than hot water?

Thanks in advance, everyone.

Joe Ekaitis
AutomaticWasher.org author in residence. :)
 
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I just recently had to replace my heater and was considering tankless but read too much about them not being able to deliver well under a load situation. Given their cost and special installation requirements, I decided it would take many years to recover the cost in savings on my gas bill. I ended up with a 40-gal Whirlpool (a good deal at Lowe's) with 2" of insulation, which is at the most efficient end of the energy guide for that type of heater. I expect to see some savings over the heater it replaced. I really wanted to go tankless but didn't have confidence in a tankless heater's ability to keep delivering hot water if I wanted to take a nice long shower.
 
There is some discussion of tankless in the Vintage Forum, thread # 11432 "1951 Westinghouse Off To The Hospital" started by WestySlantFront. Rather than repeat my "book" contribution here, I'll direct you there.   :-)   I'll look here for any further questions or discussion, however.

Ralph, a properly-sized tankless would have no trouble handling your shower.
 
~the water turns a turbine generator that creates the spark that lights the burner.

WOW now THAT is cool. (Well, as long as there is no gerbil in there. That would NEVER sit well with the neighbors or friends.)

I suppose there would be no more leaks as well. I wonder how Ross likes his new one...oh Westyslantfront, *yoohoo*
 
I stay at a campground during the summer occasionally that has tankless Rinnai water heaters. They are a bit more pricey, selling in the $1000 to $1800 range depending on size and options. (They need powerful ones at the campground to run multiple showers) Those water heaters give an AWESOME shower! You will NEVER run out of hot water with a tankless water heater, so you can take a shower as long as you want to, and other can take showers immeditely without having to wait for the tank to heat back up.

The Rinnai water heaters at the campground seem to do their best when two showers are running at a time. With more than that, the temperature starts to get a little cool, but still plenty useable for a shower, but maybe not quite for a dishwasher or a washing machine at the same time. (the mens and womens rooms have their own heaters, each bathroom has 4 showers) With just one shower on, the water sometimes gets too hot, and then when the user cuts the hot water valve back enough to be comfortable, the burner would shut off. The plumbing company the campground uses solved many of the temperature balance problems by putting an electronic thermostat on the water heater. Inexpensive models without automatic temperature controls may give you this issue too, especially if you use the newer water saver low-flow shower heads.

The drawback to electronic control and ignition is that the units require power, and if the electricity goes out in your house for some reason, you will be stuck without hot water too. For those of us that are familiar with having gas hot water, we have always took for granted the fact that you can still have hot water without electricity. This was an issue at the campground because the power went out frequently with summertime storms. It was solved by running the water heaters off of a computer UPS...they do not take much power at all.

I imagine the household models you guys were looking at may not be quite as powerful or sophisticated as these high-end Rinnais. If two people are taking a shower at the same time (not in the same shower!) or if you are filling multiple washers, you may run into a lack of heat problem simply because the heater cannot heat it fast enough to keep up. Check the GPM rate of the water heater you are interested in to see if it will fit your needs.

I am sold on tankless water heaters simply because of their convenience. The energy savings is an added bonus. The fewer people in your household, the more savings you will see with a tankless. Especially if they are like myself, and take showers at the gym frequently. They do take a little bit of a change in habits. While you do not need to wait to take a shower right after another person, you do need to be mindful on how many hot-water appliances you run at the same time. Oh, and one other thing...make sure your water heater is as close to the water "destination" as possible. There is a slight lag time in the water warming up, as the coils and other hardware in the water heater warms up when hot water is called for. By minimizing the plumbing lengths, you also minimize this lag time.
 
However, as I said in the other discussion thread, energy savings is NOT guaranteed if tankless isn't used carefully (having a 2-hr shower just because you can is gonna co$t). Or maybe more properly put, MORE savings can be had if adjustments are made to how hot water is used, which includes keeping the temperature setting at a moderate/conservative level for normal use.
 
Tankless V's Tanks....

We have lived in 2 different apartments both having Rheem Integrity instantaneous (tankless) HWS, Cant fault them, we have NEVER run out of hot water, they can cope quite happily with both washing machine & 1 shower in operation at the same time... Gas bills have been far cheaper with the instantaneous units. Why should I have to heat a whole tank of water (60L+) when I only used 10L?? I love having a thermostat on the wall that I can change as required I can even push the "Laundry" button & it knows a to boost the supply temp (normally set at 50C max.) to above safety level to the Laundy & Kitchen taps.

 
We installed a bosch tankless when we redid the plumbing and added a bath, and it's been great so far. Both showers can run with no problems, and you can shower with both the dishwasher and washer running without any major issues (haven't tried all four at once yet though :-)

Since getting rid of the electric water heater our power consumption is greatly reduced. Unfortunately, the power company hasn't caught up to that, so our "budget billing" is quite a bit higher than our actual usuage. We're going to have quite a credit with them here in a few months.
 
Hot Water Rant

Just last week while I was out on a trip my wife woke up one morning to find the ceiling in my office wet. Sure enough, the hot water tank up in the attic stated leaking. I wasn't going to get home for three more days, so I told her to call a few plumbers to get estimates.
All three companies sold Bradford White heaters. That's what was up in the attic and what the builder supplied. It lasted 12 years, but I usually go with Rheem or Bryant. My wife said all three guys said that Rheem and Bryant have sold out like Maytag has and are barely "builders grade" these days. So he charged $450.00 for a 40 gallon natural gas unit. But wait, the best is yet to come!
It seems if you have a water tank in the attic, you will pay thru the nose for replacement. We got installation estimates of $775, $850 and $935! And that does not include the tank!
I also told her to inquire about tankless heaters and the guy said we'd need one for each bathroom, the laundry area and the kitchen. About $6,000 installed. He also told her that the only people who buy those these days are the ones who have to have the latest, no matter what the cost.
Today I looked at the new unit and noticed that there is no handle on the drain valve. The installer told the wife that this unit is self cleaning, no need to drain it. And of course in the paperwork the manual indicates to drain out about a galon a month to remove sediment.

GRRRR...... What really gets me is that last fall I was going to replace it anyway just as a precaution.
 
so far (24 years), so good

I was very skeptical about tankless heaters when I came to Germany. But after 24 years with them, I can only say: Go for it! Those dratted pilot lights consume something like 1/3 of your gas money...and, like everybody here has written - you never run out of hot water.
Two small points, tho'.
One, because of their "demand" heating, they do need to be properly installed - those burners need lots of fresh air and their chimney connection is going to be larger than many old gas water heaters.
Two, if you have really hard water, be sure to get a unit which is less susceptible to scale.
Tax credits? Can anyone tell me more? My folks need a new water heater and, as usual, the rest of the family is fighting me on the tankless units tooth and nail...but if there is money to be saved...
 
Tankless water heaters have their place, and may suit you. They do have some drawbacks however. I am an architect, and my mechanical consultants like Takagi and Noritz brands the best, think Rheem is OK, and aren’t too fond of Bosch. The biggest issue is whether or not the particular heater adjusts correctly and promptly for water flow. The classic problem here is if you have a shower and washer or dishwasher on the same heater. If you’re taking a shower and the washer starts to fill, the water can get much colder due to the extra demand if it isn’t sized correctly or if it doesn’t react quickly enough. Another issue is noise. Some of the heaters can make a lot of noise when the burners crank up. One client of mine recently had two perfectly functional tankless heaters removed and two conventional heaters installed in her basement due primarily to noise, and secondarily to issues with consistent temperatures. I had nothing to do with the initial installation so can’t comment on brand or the adequacy of the sizing. Remember too that while the heaters themselves can be quite small, the space requirements for servicing can be large so you have to have enough space in front of the heater.

Another type of water heater available is a condensing tank-type. This has a burner rather like the tankless, but also has a small tank. It therefore combines the advantages of both tank and tankless types. American Water Heaters in Tennessee makes a nice one called the Polaris. It is expensive, but puts out a lot of hot water in a small space, and is very efficient. Overall, if you’re not overly picky, try the tankless. If you are picky about noise or exact water temperature, then stay with an efficient tank-type and you’ll be happy.
 
Electric tankless is not noisy far as I'm aware. I've noticed that majority of complaints about temperature fluctuations come from gas tankless, not electric. Of course, that may be because electric isn't as common, people seem to be afraid of them.
 
noise and temperature variation

Are problems which were tackled and beat back in the 1980's. At least here in Europe.
Obviouly, you do need to dimension correctly. If the heater is too small, it will throttle back on the water output or temperature if demand exceeds its capacity.
Noise is not a problem I remember ever encountering here in Europe - bet that that, too, is an "older" problem.
Oh, just to answer an email question in general: People have "issues", machinery has "problems". Don't know when "issues" became the common word for both folks and machinery, but don't much like it, so continue to distinguish between the two.
 
We purchased a (gas) Bosch Aquastar about four years ago and truly love it! Ours is not the digital temp control version, but it works just fine in this analogue home! There is an infinite supply of hot water (great if you have a teenager in the house). It is also lightweight and it up very little room in the "hot water heater closet".

We have only had one problem with the system, which really wasn't a problem with the system. Unbeknownst to us, we had a hot water valve on in one of the showers (don't ask, there is also a cutoff valve involved), that was somehow sapping the hot water from the line. The water in the rest of the home would not heat up, or heat up inadequately. Needless to say, we resolved the problem and the water is "McDonald's coffee" hot!

I don't know if there is any difference in efficiency or cost when you compare gas vs. electric. I suppose regional climate differences and seasonal price fluctuations in energy would factor in. Now, if only someone would make a solar tankless water heater....I'd be first in line for a purchase!
 
I'd love a tankless water heater, as much for the energy savings as the increase in floorspace in my laundry room.

Living on the top floor of my building, I worry about the tank springing a leak. The problem is that gas tankless systems are extremely picky about the venting and that's not something I can change. The electric heaters need a whopping amount of juice and I'm not sure my electrical service can provide it.

Guess I'll just have to have a professional come over and see if there's anything to be done.

veg
 
That's one of the problems with my job, thinks seem to break when I am halfway across the country, and I have seen more than our share of unscrupulous repairman. A woman at home with her husband out on the road = $$$$$$!

I thouroughly feel ripped off with the prices we paid and for what we got over this last reiteration.
 

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