Tankless water heater: Love 'em? Hate 'em? Let's go to the phones!

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joeekaitis

joeekaitis

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Well, the seepage in the garage and the front porch seems to be coming from a leaky tank-type natural gas water heater.

Options: replace it with another tanker or slap in a snazzy tankless. The nearest Lowe's is offering a Bosch 1600H natural gas pilotless tankless heater for about $600 to which we'll have to add professional installation. It qualifies for the Federal $300 income tax credit. It also uses an unusual ignition system: the water turns a turbine generator that creates the spark that lights the burner. No standing pilot, no electrical connection needed.

The household, for now, is just Cathy and me, a dishwasher and a front-load washer.

Any thoughts on tankless? More hype than hot water?

Thanks in advance, everyone.

Joe Ekaitis
AutomaticWasher.org author in residence. :)
 
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I just recently had to replace my heater and was considering tankless but read too much about them not being able to deliver well under a load situation. Given their cost and special installation requirements, I decided it would take many years to recover the cost in savings on my gas bill. I ended up with a 40-gal Whirlpool (a good deal at Lowe's) with 2" of insulation, which is at the most efficient end of the energy guide for that type of heater. I expect to see some savings over the heater it replaced. I really wanted to go tankless but didn't have confidence in a tankless heater's ability to keep delivering hot water if I wanted to take a nice long shower.
 
There is some discussion of tankless in the Vintage Forum, thread # 11432 "1951 Westinghouse Off To The Hospital" started by WestySlantFront. Rather than repeat my "book" contribution here, I'll direct you there.   :-)   I'll look here for any further questions or discussion, however.

Ralph, a properly-sized tankless would have no trouble handling your shower.
 
~the water turns a turbine generator that creates the spark that lights the burner.

WOW now THAT is cool. (Well, as long as there is no gerbil in there. That would NEVER sit well with the neighbors or friends.)

I suppose there would be no more leaks as well. I wonder how Ross likes his new one...oh Westyslantfront, *yoohoo*
 
I stay at a campground during the summer occasionally that has tankless Rinnai water heaters. They are a bit more pricey, selling in the $1000 to $1800 range depending on size and options. (They need powerful ones at the campground to run multiple showers) Those water heaters give an AWESOME shower! You will NEVER run out of hot water with a tankless water heater, so you can take a shower as long as you want to, and other can take showers immeditely without having to wait for the tank to heat back up.

The Rinnai water heaters at the campground seem to do their best when two showers are running at a time. With more than that, the temperature starts to get a little cool, but still plenty useable for a shower, but maybe not quite for a dishwasher or a washing machine at the same time. (the mens and womens rooms have their own heaters, each bathroom has 4 showers) With just one shower on, the water sometimes gets too hot, and then when the user cuts the hot water valve back enough to be comfortable, the burner would shut off. The plumbing company the campground uses solved many of the temperature balance problems by putting an electronic thermostat on the water heater. Inexpensive models without automatic temperature controls may give you this issue too, especially if you use the newer water saver low-flow shower heads.

The drawback to electronic control and ignition is that the units require power, and if the electricity goes out in your house for some reason, you will be stuck without hot water too. For those of us that are familiar with having gas hot water, we have always took for granted the fact that you can still have hot water without electricity. This was an issue at the campground because the power went out frequently with summertime storms. It was solved by running the water heaters off of a computer UPS...they do not take much power at all.

I imagine the household models you guys were looking at may not be quite as powerful or sophisticated as these high-end Rinnais. If two people are taking a shower at the same time (not in the same shower!) or if you are filling multiple washers, you may run into a lack of heat problem simply because the heater cannot heat it fast enough to keep up. Check the GPM rate of the water heater you are interested in to see if it will fit your needs.

I am sold on tankless water heaters simply because of their convenience. The energy savings is an added bonus. The fewer people in your household, the more savings you will see with a tankless. Especially if they are like myself, and take showers at the gym frequently. They do take a little bit of a change in habits. While you do not need to wait to take a shower right after another person, you do need to be mindful on how many hot-water appliances you run at the same time. Oh, and one other thing...make sure your water heater is as close to the water "destination" as possible. There is a slight lag time in the water warming up, as the coils and other hardware in the water heater warms up when hot water is called for. By minimizing the plumbing lengths, you also minimize this lag time.
 
However, as I said in the other discussion thread, energy savings is NOT guaranteed if tankless isn't used carefully (having a 2-hr shower just because you can is gonna co$t). Or maybe more properly put, MORE savings can be had if adjustments are made to how hot water is used, which includes keeping the temperature setting at a moderate/conservative level for normal use.
 
Tankless V's Tanks....

We have lived in 2 different apartments both having Rheem Integrity instantaneous (tankless) HWS, Cant fault them, we have NEVER run out of hot water, they can cope quite happily with both washing machine & 1 shower in operation at the same time... Gas bills have been far cheaper with the instantaneous units. Why should I have to heat a whole tank of water (60L+) when I only used 10L?? I love having a thermostat on the wall that I can change as required I can even push the "Laundry" button & it knows a to boost the supply temp (normally set at 50C max.) to above safety level to the Laundy & Kitchen taps.

http://www.rheem.com.au/domestic_product.asp?model=875024&cat_id=
 
We installed a bosch tankless when we redid the plumbing and added a bath, and it's been great so far. Both showers can run with no problems, and you can shower with both the dishwasher and washer running without any major issues (haven't tried all four at once yet though :-)

Since getting rid of the electric water heater our power consumption is greatly reduced. Unfortunately, the power company hasn't caught up to that, so our "budget billing" is quite a bit higher than our actual usuage. We're going to have quite a credit with them here in a few months.
 
Hot Water Rant

Just last week while I was out on a trip my wife woke up one morning to find the ceiling in my office wet. Sure enough, the hot water tank up in the attic stated leaking. I wasn't going to get home for three more days, so I told her to call a few plumbers to get estimates.
All three companies sold Bradford White heaters. That's what was up in the attic and what the builder supplied. It lasted 12 years, but I usually go with Rheem or Bryant. My wife said all three guys said that Rheem and Bryant have sold out like Maytag has and are barely "builders grade" these days. So he charged $450.00 for a 40 gallon natural gas unit. But wait, the best is yet to come!
It seems if you have a water tank in the attic, you will pay thru the nose for replacement. We got installation estimates of $775, $850 and $935! And that does not include the tank!
I also told her to inquire about tankless heaters and the guy said we'd need one for each bathroom, the laundry area and the kitchen. About $6,000 installed. He also told her that the only people who buy those these days are the ones who have to have the latest, no matter what the cost.
Today I looked at the new unit and noticed that there is no handle on the drain valve. The installer told the wife that this unit is self cleaning, no need to drain it. And of course in the paperwork the manual indicates to drain out about a galon a month to remove sediment.

GRRRR...... What really gets me is that last fall I was going to replace it anyway just as a precaution.
 
so far (24 years), so good

I was very skeptical about tankless heaters when I came to Germany. But after 24 years with them, I can only say: Go for it! Those dratted pilot lights consume something like 1/3 of your gas money...and, like everybody here has written - you never run out of hot water.
Two small points, tho'.
One, because of their "demand" heating, they do need to be properly installed - those burners need lots of fresh air and their chimney connection is going to be larger than many old gas water heaters.
Two, if you have really hard water, be sure to get a unit which is less susceptible to scale.
Tax credits? Can anyone tell me more? My folks need a new water heater and, as usual, the rest of the family is fighting me on the tankless units tooth and nail...but if there is money to be saved...
 
Tankless water heaters have their place, and may suit you. They do have some drawbacks however. I am an architect, and my mechanical consultants like Takagi and Noritz brands the best, think Rheem is OK, and aren’t too fond of Bosch. The biggest issue is whether or not the particular heater adjusts correctly and promptly for water flow. The classic problem here is if you have a shower and washer or dishwasher on the same heater. If you’re taking a shower and the washer starts to fill, the water can get much colder due to the extra demand if it isn’t sized correctly or if it doesn’t react quickly enough. Another issue is noise. Some of the heaters can make a lot of noise when the burners crank up. One client of mine recently had two perfectly functional tankless heaters removed and two conventional heaters installed in her basement due primarily to noise, and secondarily to issues with consistent temperatures. I had nothing to do with the initial installation so can’t comment on brand or the adequacy of the sizing. Remember too that while the heaters themselves can be quite small, the space requirements for servicing can be large so you have to have enough space in front of the heater.

Another type of water heater available is a condensing tank-type. This has a burner rather like the tankless, but also has a small tank. It therefore combines the advantages of both tank and tankless types. American Water Heaters in Tennessee makes a nice one called the Polaris. It is expensive, but puts out a lot of hot water in a small space, and is very efficient. Overall, if you’re not overly picky, try the tankless. If you are picky about noise or exact water temperature, then stay with an efficient tank-type and you’ll be happy.
 
Electric tankless is not noisy far as I'm aware. I've noticed that majority of complaints about temperature fluctuations come from gas tankless, not electric. Of course, that may be because electric isn't as common, people seem to be afraid of them.
 
noise and temperature variation

Are problems which were tackled and beat back in the 1980's. At least here in Europe.
Obviouly, you do need to dimension correctly. If the heater is too small, it will throttle back on the water output or temperature if demand exceeds its capacity.
Noise is not a problem I remember ever encountering here in Europe - bet that that, too, is an "older" problem.
Oh, just to answer an email question in general: People have "issues", machinery has "problems". Don't know when "issues" became the common word for both folks and machinery, but don't much like it, so continue to distinguish between the two.
 
We purchased a (gas) Bosch Aquastar about four years ago and truly love it! Ours is not the digital temp control version, but it works just fine in this analogue home! There is an infinite supply of hot water (great if you have a teenager in the house). It is also lightweight and it up very little room in the "hot water heater closet".

We have only had one problem with the system, which really wasn't a problem with the system. Unbeknownst to us, we had a hot water valve on in one of the showers (don't ask, there is also a cutoff valve involved), that was somehow sapping the hot water from the line. The water in the rest of the home would not heat up, or heat up inadequately. Needless to say, we resolved the problem and the water is "McDonald's coffee" hot!

I don't know if there is any difference in efficiency or cost when you compare gas vs. electric. I suppose regional climate differences and seasonal price fluctuations in energy would factor in. Now, if only someone would make a solar tankless water heater....I'd be first in line for a purchase!
 
I'd love a tankless water heater, as much for the energy savings as the increase in floorspace in my laundry room.

Living on the top floor of my building, I worry about the tank springing a leak. The problem is that gas tankless systems are extremely picky about the venting and that's not something I can change. The electric heaters need a whopping amount of juice and I'm not sure my electrical service can provide it.

Guess I'll just have to have a professional come over and see if there's anything to be done.

veg
 
That's one of the problems with my job, thinks seem to break when I am halfway across the country, and I have seen more than our share of unscrupulous repairman. A woman at home with her husband out on the road = $$$$$$!

I thouroughly feel ripped off with the prices we paid and for what we got over this last reiteration.
 
Noise

The heaters my clients had pulled out weren't from the '80s, but were installed about '99 as part of a major remodel. I've seen the permits. They were on a first story exterior wall somewhere below the second story master bedroom. I never, ever allow exterior installations on my projects except on a protected wall screened from view because those heaters are ugly, but as noted I had nothing to do with that installation.

The husband in this case often works odd hours at a hospital due to his specialty. If he took a shower in the middle of the night the burners on the heaters would ignite and that sound would telegraph up the wall behind the bed and wake his wife up. Given that the shower is about 30' from the master bedroom and against a different wall I don't doubt their story that the heaters caused the noise, not the shower itself. The wall in question is also a shear wall with plywood shear panels under the stucco which would transmit sound. Two 75 gallon heaters in the basement fixed things at great expense and now they're happy.

Stories like this aren't unusual in the design community, and may relfect poor installation or picky owners. I know my clients are exacting, but they are also very bright, educated, and not at all phobic about machinery. Lots of people here at AW would fall into the same category. The point is to recognize what your own standards are.

As for me, I only have an old 40 gallon tank type, and don't use the washer and shower at the same time anyway, so I'd probably be totally happy with a tankless.

Veg - check the size of your existing flue and then go to the Takagi and Rheem websites and do some research. They have dimensions and requirements for various size heaters and you'll get an idea if your existing flue is adequate.
 
Hi Veg. I am having tankless put in. The vent pipe had to be changed. Also, an air intake pipe was installed on the roof.
The gas supply line had to be changed to a 1 inch line. That had to be run over the roof from the central a/c/furnace.
Almost ready to fire up the new water heater.

Ross
 
I just bought a brand new house that has a tankless,gas water heater mounted outside.I love it and I have 4.5 bathrooms , a huge kitchen w/island,a laundryroom,a jacuzzy and a heated pool that are all connected to the unit for hot water.I have it set for 165F,and never run out of hot water.I highly recomend this to all who are tired of the old tank type units that can leak and seam to be problematic.
 
My tankless hot water heater was just installed. It works fine. And with the extra space, there will be more washing machines.

Ross
 
Wow, 165°F is very high! You'd probably get a considerably lower gas bill by cranking it down closer to usage temperature. You don't have any trouble with temperature fluctuations when showering, for example? Unless you're tolerant of unusually high temperatures, the hot water flow must be cut down quite a lot to get shower temps, which may sometimes drop lower than the activation GPM and cause the unit to shut off.
 
he's right, you really don't need to set it that high for showering or hand-dishwashing. High hot-water temperatures like that are a hold-over from tanked hot water days. In order to extend the amount of avaliable hot water, most people would crank up the temperature of the tank, and then compensate by mixing cold water in at the faucet until the desired temperature is reached. The result is less hot water flowing.

In a tankless however, this is not needed since it will never run out. You can set the water heater thermostat to the acual desired temperature, and the water heater will regulate the amount of heat to achieve that temperature...non eed to add cold water! This is also the way to do it if you have more than one shower running at a time. Now, when you need hotter water to do dishes in the DW or run the washing machine, you can turn the 'stat back up to the desired wash temperature. I'm not thinking you need anything over 130F for that however
 
My "normal" temp setting is 103°F for showering. I raise it appropriately for washing clothes, and to 110°F-112°F when filling the whirlpool bath (which doesn't happen often). I don't raise it for dishes, the dishwasher takes care of that, heating its 0.8 gal fills to the specific temp it wants for the selected cycle's main wash and final rinse.

Being that Chuck's unit is installed outside the house, adjusting the temperature per usage is likely not convenient unless it has remote controls at strategic locations inside the house. Mine doesn't have a remote control, but is installed in a broom closet inside my utility room so is easily accessible.
 
going tankless....

To really have a adequate tankless supply, you need something that will deliver at least 4 gpm at 120* or hotter. This requires a lot of gas input, and the units with the electric gas guns (power burners) are going to be the best at this. In addition to the venting, you really need to look at your GAS supply line as its size & length is likely going to determine the maximum gas input you have available before you have to make major mods.

Assuming no losses, it will take about 115,200 BTU of heat to raise 4 GPM with a 60* rise. In reality, most non-condensing gas appliances will have a max efficiency of about 80% which will dictate an actual required gas input of approx. 144,000 BTUH minimum. If you factor in losses in the plumbing itself, especially for longer, underground and/or uninsulated runs, you will need even more. Based on the forgoing, I would recommend a minimum 150K+ BTUH of usable input capacity unless your usage is minimal and/or you don't use a shower.
 
When I do my tyle floors,I like to use the hottest water available,Otherwise,it doesn't cut the grease or sanitize.I used to have to boil pots of water to be able to do that.
 
Good point about design failures.

Was just visiting my aunt. They built an entirely custom house (stark modern contemporary that is reallly beautiful) a couple years ago. (Pity her husband died about 6 months after it was finished).

We were talking about the building of it...which was a several year task. She bought the kitchen (model at a kitchen shop...Snaidero cabinetry in Corvette yellow (!), Gaggenau appliances, etc etc. and had the kitchen built around it. That kind of place.

ONe thing she mentioned which was a success...the architect insisted on 8 foot ceilings upstairs, which are precisely perfect...the downstairs is 10' and is airy and light, but airy/light upstairs would have been overkill...paradoxically, in the living/sleeping areas you need a little more coziness for comfort than the more "public" gallery/entry areas

Two failures...they thought that there was going to be exterior lighting (this house is all surface and planes...think geodesic dome) so there were electricity drops (with 110v) all around the house which are nothing more now than trip hazards in the yard.

Second failure...she'd wanted geothermal climate control (on a 2 acre lot so would have had plenty of space). She let herself be talked out of it ($15k upcharge) because of the architect/builder's unfamiliarity with it. Now there are 3 noisy compressors for the HVAC running a lot, plus all the energy savings, AND she realized that they spent several X 15K for decorative stuff which isn't nearly as useful as earth-based would have been.
 

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