Tankless Water Heaters

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dalangdon

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Location
Seattle, WA
It's getting to be new water heater time around here, and I am seriously considering a tankless water heater. My house is small, and my laundry room is smaller, and a tankless heater would free up a considerable amount of space AND bring more sunlight into my laundry room (for some reason, the water heater sits directly in front of the only window in the laundry room.)

My hot water "needs" are pretty minimal: I live alone, have a modern front loading washer. My only water "hog" is my vintage KA dishwasher and my lenghty morning showers. However, if my laundry room were more spacious, I would probably be tempted to indulge in a vintage set ;-)

Anybody have any experience in these water heaters? I'm considering a Bosch that claims you can have two major appliances running at the same time.
 
Tankless Water Heaters, info from the Super Archives:

Thread Number: 1269
Re: Tankless Water Heaters:

Peace and Happy Tankless Water Heater Searching, Steve
SactoTeddyBear...
 
Hey, we take our sunlight whereever we can get it ;-)

The bubblevator is unfortunately gone - along with most of the other cool stuff at the Seattle Center. And Frederick & Nelson. And the Doghouse. And Woolworths. And the Bon Marche (it's now Macys)

I liked Seattle a lot more when we didn't have all the rich people.
 
Gone :(

That Bubblevator was so unique. I hope the Pink Elephant car wash is still there. Funny the things you remember. Used to stay over at the Vance..Geeze it must be at least 20 years since I was last in Seattle. The trolley buses are gone too aren't they.. I think they got rid of those around the time I moved.
 
Gas or electric?

A high-capacity gas tankless typically has a 200,000 BTU burner, and may require a 3/4" gas supply line. There are also venting requirements.

I have electric. The common "fear" of electric tankless is the huge electric demand they can pull . . . which is true at maximum capacity. Mine is rated 120 amps @ 240 volts, 28,800 watts. But, it *rarely* needs to run at full capacity.

See, the trick about tankless is not to OVERHEAT the water for the task at hand. What-the-hell-for heat it to 120°F or 125°F or 130°F and then temper it with COLD water for a shower? Who could stand under a stream of 130°F water, so what for spend the energy to create it?? Current-technology tankless units throttle the electric elements or gas burner as needed to meet the setpoint based on the incoming water temp and flow rate. By running hot water at moderate rates and keeping temperatures reasonable, high efficiency can be attained.

I have my unit set at 102°F as the normal setpoint, for showering. No need to mix cold with it, it's NOT OVERHEATED. I don't run the water very fast, generally about 0.7 GPM flow rate, but sometimes a bit more. With incoming water temp of between 80°F and 83°F (south Texas in the summer, weeeeooo!), it typically is below 12% of capacity. I've seen it at 7%. 7% of 28,800 watts is a touch more than 2,000 watts, 500 watts more than a typical portable space heater. I could stand under that shower ALL DAY and never run out of 102°F water.

I raise the temp for specific tasks, but that generally is only washing clothes and filling the jacuzzi tub. I don't raise it for dishwashing, my DishDrawer always heats to specific temps. The last time I ran 140°F for a washing a load of whites, the demand was 67% of capacity, almost 20KW, but fill time for the the F&P's EcoActive wash isn't much.  :-)

Another concern about tankless is "time to hot." True, there is a brief delay while the unit gets fired up and adjusts to the conditions. I can't say about gas, but my electric typically takes about 20 to 25 seconds to settle down, a bit longer if the temp is raised toward the max. I'm basing that on performance at the washer, which is the closet point of use to the unit. The remainder of the "time to hot" at the point of use is for purging standing cold water in the hot supply line, which is the same as with a traditional tank unit.

As for running multiple concurrent hot water uses, it certainly can be done. Performance depends on all the variables -- incoming water temp, setpoint, and flow rate. High setpoint, low incoming temp, and high flow rate, it likely would have trouble and perhaps could not meet the setpoint. There WOULD be some heated water, just not to the setpoint. I could get 102°F to four or five faucets at the same time. I can fill both whirlpool tubs with 112°F or 115°F. I could get 135°F water to probably two faucets in the summer. 140°F to one in the winter.

The only thing that has changed about my hot water usage is that I'm more conscious of it now. Do I really need hot water for that task, how hot does it need to be, and how fast/how long does it really need to run?
 
I have used a gas tankless water heater-

A local community center has a gas Aquastar, and I love it! As DADoES said, the only wait is for the room temperature water in the line to be purged.

I go to this center several times a month for meetings of one sort or another, and I often find myself part of the clean-up crew. We have delightful hot water for hand dishwashing. (Most meetings I attend there are not large enough to justify running the Hobart).

My biggest-only(?) concern would be lime scale build up. When I have my own house again (oh, may it happen soon!), I would run a water softener through the hot water line. (I like hot soft water, but can't abide mechanically softened cold water.)

Lawrence/Maytagbear

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
Forgot to say that my electric is an Envirotech ESI 2000 4.12. I didn't select it, it was already in the house I bought. I wouldn't have considered a tankless, and was leery of it, but I like it!

I've been told that Envirotech has a new model line coming out, pricier, but likely with better features/performance.

The Wilder family, our Austin & Venus, have a Bosch gas unit.
 
I am going ot get a back-handed knuckle sandwich for this...but

...and should for whatever reason a tankless heater not suffice you can still always add a small 20 gallon storage-type hot water heater tank after it.

Well the efficiency goes, but you'll probably NEVER run out of hot water.

And, you'll be able to use more water outlets simultaneously.
 
I LOVE our Bosch AquaStar! It is a high-capacity gas model and you can run pretty much every faucet in the house...the water still stays hot no matter how long it's on.

It's pretty simple and fail-safe, just a slide switch for off/ignite/on, a temperature knob, and an ignitor button. I keep the temperature around 115 degrees; enough to kill "germies" in the wash. Tankless heaters are the best; I will never switch back to another tank again!

--Austin
 
Hi Austin-

Way cool.

What size is the exhaust pipe, must be 6" or 8" at least.
Can these be vented out a side-wall or do they have to be vented straight up?

I have heard that there are some models that can be used for hydronic (hot water) heating as well.

-Steve
 
120 amps *WOW*

Imagine in a suburb such as mine where people catch a bus or train that leaves at a certain time.

Can you picture 20 homes all having a huge power demand at approximately the same time for a morning shower and maybe a washer load or dishwasher load as well?

BTW my instantaneous coil domestic hot water heater in my oil-fired boiler does just fine-- with everything-- except the T/L washer, it then struggles to keep up!
 
Aquastar

I have had an Aquastar 125B (the most common Bosch model) since May 2002. I am very happy with it. There are only two people in my household.

Tankless water heaters do not "run out" of hot water (unless you run out of fuel). They do have a limited flow rate, however. The Aquastar will deliver water at its max temp, but not at more than 3.5 gpm. The washer takes slightly longer to fill on hot than on cold.

If you have the temp set at 102F and have a 2.5 gpm showerhead, you don't have to worry about temp fluctuations when someone turns on a sink. If a non-flow-restricted valve (laundry sink) opens, the flow practically stops in a kitchen or bathroom sink. Again, this is not really a problem in a one-or two-person household where residents are aware of the quirks.

We keep ours set at 120F for dishwashing. The WH is in an exterior closet, so frequent temp adjustments are inconvenient. Some of the newer tankless heaters have a remote temp control, so you can set it for 102F and override when you need to hand-wash dishes.

The only problem I have is during rainstorms. If there is a significant windblown rain, water blows up under the flue cap and extinguishes the pilot. I have to take the hood off and hold a match under the pilot to drive out the water before re-lighting. This happens two or three times a year. I plan on installing a different style cap, and I hope that fixes the problem.

I have a dedicated 1" black iron pipe running straight from the gas meter. This was more expensive than the WH itself, even though I did the work myself. The 117 kBtu burner won't tolerate undersized pipe. Keep this in mind if you are considering one for a remodel.

Aquastar has a new pilotless model, with a miniature hydroelectric turbine in the incoming water line which runs the spark ignitor. What a cool idea!
 
Quote from Toggleswiitch

"BTW my instantaneous coil domestic hot water heater in my oil-fired boiler does just fine"

Steve, I have to pick on you for a second. Why in the hell would you want to heat HOT water for domestic usage?

Shouldn't it be a "WATER HEATER" instead of a "HOT WATER HEATER"?

let me know!!!

LOL

Steve
 
Steve:

Actually in the field it IS referred to as "hot water heater." I have heard this once or twice as a buidlng inspector :-)

I hated this expression too for years. It is a heater to produce (domestic) hot water and should probably be written properly as "hot-water heater." (Ya know two words hyphenated when functioning as an adjective. )

[Domestic hot water is for potable {meaning drinkable} hot water at the tap rather than non-potable hot water for heating, BTW]

So back to grammar.... One example of hyphenating when multiple words are used as an adjective is "I beat his tender little plump-as-a-bed-pillow a@@ to a pulp!" See? The hyphenated words can be replaced by ONE adjective such as "rounded" Try it! see, there ya go.

Sign me
"OXFORD professor in a past life"

LOL ROFL LMAO

-Steve,
 

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