The era of traditional TL's(coming to and end?)

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Cobra

The prototype has been shipped from our Houston office to our factory in China to be tested and modified.No word as of yet on the outcome.All I can and will say is get ready.This model has a 3.3 cu ft capacity.It will be a 220 volt vented model with a 1200 rpm spin.
 
Interesting topic!

I remember a time in the 70s, more than once actually, when I came home from being at a friends's house (I was about 10 maybe) and my mother and several of her friends/neighbors were on the back porch talking....I'd hear someone say "I just had to buy a new washing machine". It was a huge deal, the cost outlay, the difficult decision to get rid of the old one, the expectations of the new one, etc. To some it seemed like a stressful purchase. Yes, they sure were durable goods in those days.

If we look at prices of a Kenmore mid-line machine through the years, the prices have remained relatively fixed, even with inflation, so there's no alternative for the machines to have become cheaper and cheaper from a quality standpoint, and thus switch from durable goods to consumer goods.

In 1962 a Kenmore 60 or 70 was priced around $225 or so. My folks paid $269 for a 70 in 1974, and $330 for another 70 in 1983. I paid $359 for mine in late 1986. I also bought a new Mustang in 1986 for $9,000. In 2004 I bought another new Mustang - that one cost me $21,000 and I got nearly 25% off the sticker. I could have bought a Kenmore 70 though for $399 at about anytime in 2004.

The prices for washers and probably appliances in general have not kept up with inflation, which I'm not complaining about, but consumers have forced this to happen, but at the same time have allowed their expectations of machines to drop.

People ask me frequently what I would recommend in a new washer purchase. I usually suggest a Whirlpool made direct drive top loader. Years ago I felt they were junk, but now they look quite good comparatively speaking. I do not believe that a small family or single person would reap the energy saving benefits of an HE machine as compared to the price outlay vs. a well-proven design top loader. A big family or in areas where energy and/or water is expensive, yes. For the rest of us, not yet anyway.

Then again I still hear complaints about the Maytag Neptune's durability and stuff about the class-action lawsuits regarding the HE Whirlpool top loaders (can't remember their name at the moment).

For the moment, and until a front loader is durable enough that we can get $1000 worth of service from it, I'll stay with a top loader as long as they're still made, OR keep working on repairing old ones.
 
Are Americans stupid? Or do we just play them on TV?

I have just found this forum.

And I have to ask myself, why are my fellow Americans idiots?

Forget about the FL/TL argument -- folks on both sides have their good and silly points to make. But why, why, why does every product have to be dumbed down for the USA?

My wife and I have had FLs for almost 14 years. The first one was awesome -- infinitely variable temperature controls from ambient cold to 95C, had a great selection of programs, etc.

An unfortunate accident caused us to have to replace it a few years ago. It was a piece of junk by comparison.

We've just bought a replacement Bosch FL. Another piece of junk, that Lowes is taking back. We'll be getting a Whirlpool Duet to replace it. But, give me a break; it has an internal heater, but only the stupid 'hot warm cold' settings. No particular settings for spin speed, etc.

I didn't think we were so stupid as a nation not to be able to operate appliances, but, maybe we are?

Unlike many of you , I DO believe that front loaders, if properly built, are better machines. But it is that caveat that is in question.

Nate
 
Hey Nate...

You might want to look at the MayTag Epic 9700.
It gives you a lot more options, spin speed, Deep Soak, and Rinse and has better reliability over the Duets since they were the old KitchenAid Models retagged. Consumers and Consumer Reports give them 4.8 and 4.9 *'s out of five for satisfaction and options.

 
cashbacks for front loaders (twinniefan)

Some parts of the USA do not have water shortages. In areas where water must be conserved, cashbacks are more common. I live in Southern California and received two cashbacks (we call them rebates) for my Frigidaire 2140 FL:

1. $100 from the government water agency
2. $35 from the natural gas utility, which is privately owned, though subject to government regulation

FLs use less water and thus less hot water, because American machines fill from both cold and hot water lines. There usually is no rebate from the electric utility, because these machines don't directly save on electricity, unless one has an electric water heater. Higher end models with onboard heaters probably use more electricity when a high temperature cycle is selected.

When I bought my Bosch dishwasher seven years ago, I received a $50 rebate from the gas utility (again, because of savings of hot water; our dishwashers fill from the hot water tap and the heater fires up only when the hot water line temperature is below the selected rinse temperature). There was no water agency rebate or electrical rebate.

I also own a two year old Frigidaire refrigerator and there was a $50 rebate from the electric utility because this model uses less electricity than previous models.
 
ps

For readers outside North America, typical hot water line temperature is 140F/68C. A basic FL model without an onboard heater therefore cannot run a wash hotter than the temperature of the hot water line that supplies the washer. My Frig 2140 has no heater and thus cannot wash at temperatures above what are in my hot water line. For most people, a 60-65 C wash is adequate.

If one is trying to sterilize towels or diapers, 70 or 80 C may be better. In North America, this is possible in more expensive models that include an onboard heater (as nearly all dishwashers have) to boost the water temp to 70 or 80 C. Because we use 120V current, the process takes a long time, and a cycle involving the onboard heater will likely take two hours or more....the same as a typical cycle in a European or international machine with cold water fill only (which at least can heat the water with 240V current). Although an onboard heater is considered standard in the rest of the world, in the USA it is an excuse to charge 200-300 dollars more for what is essentially the same washer with a heater, as if this is a "luxury" feature. They can get away with it because most people can wash adequately with no onboard heater using hot water line fill....and people did so for years with toploaders that lacked heaters.

The nice thing about hot water fill in a non-heater machine (or in a heater machine where you don't select the hot/sterilize cycle) is that the wash completes in often 60-75 minutes, often an hour faster than in the rest of the world when one selects say 60C wash temperature.

US machines rarely if ever have a degrees Celsius selector like the rest of the world. Just "cold", "warm", and "hot". To engage the heater, one generally selects the "Sanitize" cycle plus "hot" temp selection, and this combination engages the water heater to boost the temperature to about 80 C or 160F. Most Europeans would expect a washer to quickly heat water from 65 C water line temp to 80 C, since it doesn't have to heat from the cold water line, but because we have only 110V power, the process takes longer than it would in Europe.
 
CLAP CLAP!

Neither I would have been good to say the same...
What else to say my dear PassatDoc?
CLAP CLAP!

Thanks for the precious informations, none knows this important things whether nobody of us dayly comparing the american and the european culture in uses adn habits go to say them!

GoodBye
Diomede
 
sad fate for this TL-WD set!Those who are sensitive may not want to watch the link.Could this be the sad fate for possibly usuable TL washers out there?did the folks who put these out for the "Crusher"get a new FL set?At their prices--maybe home washers could be an endangered species.At BB the other day say a LG FL washer dryer set where they cost $2300 each! and the matching pedistals were $475Each!!You could buy a nice TL machine for just the price of one pedistal.At the price of that LG FL set at BB-I'll take my clothes to a laundramat or use a cleaners!

 
Isn't that strange? I watched just to see how much metal a washer would crush down to. The dryer seemed far more willing to be consumed...

You know, the front-loaders are still prohibitively expensive in my neck of the woods....yet, there are pretty decent top loaders available at extremely reasonable prices.

A lot of cash-strapped families would be thrilled to buy a preowned TL set even more cheaply. Couldn't an appliance outlet recondition these lightly-used machines, sell them at a profit that would at least cost the user less than a new one, and make up the difference on volume?

Or do even the Kenmores and Whirlpools really least a year or so anyway?

I recently spoke to a big-box appliance salesman and he said the new front loaders are NOT moving.
 
Great qustion Oxydolfan

Actually, many many good disposed of machines, top load or otherwise, do go on to reconditioners and rebuilders.

Many a store and individual in Charlotte has made their livings doing this. I think with the more "disposability" of the newer machines and the cheaper (relatively speaking) prices of some top loaders, there may not be as much of a niche as there once was with used appliances, but MANY do go on to have second lives.

The situation varies in municipalities throughout the country, but here our disposed of machines that do go to the landfill/crusher are set-out for a while for others to scavenge parts from. In some cases I have heard where people have arranged "deals" with the site managers for whole machines.

When machines are hauled away by appliance stores such as BestBuy, HH Gregg, Sears, whatever...they usually have deals arranged with local people to pickup their stache each evening or specific days and the haulers can sell or dispose of the stuff at their leisure, almost always to guys like me who like to tinker and repair/restore.

I rebuilt more than 50 Kenmore and Whirlpool belt-drive washers in the 90s for fun. I arranged a deal with the Sears store manager in town at the store that was responsible for all the appliance distribution in Charlotte. When I found out they were putting ALL their haul-backs into a compactor like that in the video, I gasped and asked if I could have them instead.

I was shocked that nobody had asked this before, but the manager was thrilled to be able to decommission the compactor and lower his liability insurance. It was a small personal victory for me to see the compactor itself hauled away!

A friend of mine, who repaired and sold appliances for a living, lived nearby the Sears store. He went by there every weekday to get whatever Sears had accumulated. Sometimes he'd get me to help. I always wanted to keep EVERYTHING, but he'd occasionally force me to dump something in the crusher that probably did belong there. We did this for about 6 or 7 years until Sears changed their distribution method and farmed out the deliveries to an outside company as a cost savings. But, for the time we had the deal, we saved hundreds and hundreds of good washers, dryers, and refriges from going to waste. I went thru the 50, plus I have 30 more still to work on. That's 80 machines, and my friend I bet went thru a couple hundred a year, at least.

As a side bonus, at least as I see it, the parts divisions of Whirpool, GE, Maytag, etc. got a deal too because we had to purchase repair parts for those machines. I spent thousands on Whirlpool FSP parts that would have otherwise gone unsold, and I am pretty sure that those who got my washers would NOT have bought something new if they didn't get mine.

I know similar stuff like this happens all over. Yes, some good stuff does get dumped and wasted, but it isn't as bad as it might first appear, thankfully.
 
.... but that just prolongs wash day?

Good point but...
From a personal point of view, my wash day is just about every day.
AEG front loader... put a load in before going to work then when back from work, into dryer.
Simple as...
Does there have to be a "Wash day" nowadays?
Maybe FL's do work with todays lifestyles?
(Don't get me wrong, I would love a good old Hotpoint TL!!!)
Peter
 
Peter, I don't think that was Laundress' point. I think she is only saying that if you always used half loads then doing the laundry will take twice as long! Apologies if i'm wrong!

I tend to do all the linens on one day since i do enjoy doing the washing and all! Clothes and such just get done when i get home. I'm a bit cagey about leaving the washing machine on when i'm out.

On a somewhat unrelated topic... I realise now that top loaders are not just things that beats clothes to death. I don't want one or anything because i like my FLers too much!

David
 
just my little input!

Hi David.. Another appliance lover on the west coast. That can't be bad!!

The post was just my view on washday.... I would love a day solely for indulging myself in my favourite pastime but work, relationships etc get in the way lol!!

Hope Sunday goes well !
Peter
 
In my area FL machines aren't moving real fast either.Yet Best Buy has that super expensive Stainless Steel cased FL LG washer and matching dryer on display.Don't think ANYONE in Greenville is interested--hell the price of that WD set is more costly than most peoples wardrobes!and with some of the horror stories about LG-don't thnk I would want to spend over $6000 for a WD set from them.My thinking its best for the globe to keep all of those older machines going--rather than getting crunched or going to the dump.The WD set that got crunched in the link could have found another home-some folks would have been tickled pink to have them.
The krusher shown in my link is a McNelious manual side load trash truck.Its on a Peterbuilt chassis.The person that filmed the video operates the truck and compactor shown in the film clip.Its amazing what he kushes in his truck-you would want to drive his route before him and collect the goodies he krushes!At present I want to get a BD WP or KN washer but can't find anymore here-the swap shops don't run into them anymore-other folks here want them too!I am on a waiting list so as to speak.
 
Several people at appliance stores in the US have told me that front loaders now outsell top loaders in the US, by what margin I don't know. One of these sources is the owner of an appliance store whom I know socially, i.e. he was not trying to make a sale.

The recent Consumer Reports comparisons, which found most of the conventional toploaders unacceptable due to poor cleaning (they now use less water but have not really been re-engineered), may accelerate the trend, particularly if more "moderately priced" machines come to market, such as Frigidaires for $500-700 rather than $1000-plus

rebates on the order of $50-150 are often involved, the true cost of buying is lower than the actual price tag. Rebates are region-dependent. In areas where water is plentiful and energy is cheap, sometimes no rebates are offered. In California, one usually receives a $35-50 rebate from the gas company (washer uses less hot water) and often $100 from the municipal water district. The latter is a government agency and is not in collusion with the manufacturers.
 
Giimicks!!

Americans Love Change and If they BELIEVE something is new and different theyll whip out their credit cards and pay Two Grand for a Monstrosity of a washer and Dryer. The Front load verses Top Load debate will go on forever but I"ll tell ya one thing..Ive survived 46 years with a Top load washer ! So I'll keep my old fairly reliable Top loader and watch the world go by!
 
The debate won't go on forever, I'd say in 10-15 years, top-loaders will no longer be made.
 
you know...

I've had front loaders for 13 years, and as far as I am concerned, they win hands down.

I PREFER ones with onboard heaters. Then, it doesn't matter how far your machine is from your hot water heater. In my last house, my ASKO 6kg machine was on the second floor, a LONG way from the heater. DESPITE using electricity to heat the water, the 95C wash used less than (IIRC) 3kw of electricity in total.

A 60C wash used about half that.

The small amount of water that the front load used made it economical to heat the water with electricity.

I also saw the longer wash cycles as a bonus, because when the clothes came out, they were CLEAN. Plus, a 1600 RPM spin out meant they were also nearly dry.

Oh yeah: machine update: We ended up going with the front loading Duet. We looked at the above mentioned Maytag as well as the Duet, but the 9400 had more cycles that she wanted - and since she does that laundry that sealed it. These were to replace a Bosch front loader that Lowes took back; neither of us were happy with its performance at all.

Nate
 

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