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"that's *exactly* what hurts you people: everywhere people have been given a choice, they've been picking up the frontloaders"

Only from marketing and compelling force. Ie, Whirlpools new toploaders agitate when filling being very rough on clothing. No water level control on many models, long cycle times, locking lids... in short people are being forced to switch to front loaders.

However thats not to say that there are people who save energy while getting great results from their Fls. Many people do. However IMO the issue boils down to consumer choice that is presently limited.
 
Autism/Aspergers

I AM one of those autistic people you mention, Paulo, and I am proud to be as such. I resent your notion that myself and people like me cannot be trusted to analyze this thread and make proper sense of it. I have trouble w/ social interaction not rational thinking.

I am most certainly not having trouble following this discussion and it is insulting for you to say that autistic folks like myself cannot!

I usually find your commentary intriguing, but this is simply insulting.
 
I wasn't trying to be low. Do you know someone with Aspbergers ? You made the statement and in your mind you think you know who they are. So all I am asking is for you to state who you think they are. I mean you could tell by their posts..right ? Very condescending of you. Must be the elitists here I have heard about .

If you want to know "what would Jesus do" pick up a bible and start in the book of Matthew. I will not speak on anything again concerning religion or politics here.

I would like to talk to you over at dirty laundry but I currently do not have access as my views are not tolerated ....so much for love, tolerance and acceptance. I don't want to discuss politics either.

I came to this website for the sheer love of automatic washers and to obtain knowledge i didn't have about these wonderful marvels of engineering. So far it has been pretty good and many of the club members have been kind and courteous.
 
top load machines?

There will probably ALWAYS be a few top load washers produced because there will always be people who will hold out against change and/or there may be certain unusual applications and places where a front load machine will not fit in. That being said, there is really NOTHING that a top load machine can do better than a new front load machine with all the features available now. I have stated many times before that front loaders do as well or a better job of cleaning, rinsing and are far better at spinning the water out. They do it with virtually NO linting and less wear on your clothing, towels and bedding using FAR less water and saving you a LOT of time and energy on drying in your dryer. The ONLY thing different is that it does take significantly longer to wash and rinse a load of laundry, which I consider to be a small trade off indeed. In the new millennium, front load washers have FINALLY been perfected from the old machines from the 30's to the 90's and are the clear educated and informed choice now. When top loaders were useful and worked well was when we had nothing better, that day is over now. The old top load machines are fun and interesting to watch and use. The new ones are just attempting to do the same thing a new front loader can do, with the same amount of water. This is just not physically possible by design.
 
Top load

In my opinion, i think the whirlpool/kenmore calypso was the only exception, conveinence of a top load but performance on par with a front load, of course because it was good they stop making it and now produce absolute junk! The new cabrios are noisy, weak agitation, use more water than a calypso..... we are supposed to go foreward in improvements not backwards, anyhow, i am really looking forward to the new speed queen, i have faith alliance knows what they are doing.
 
The top load design was probably perfected by the seventies. I don't know what advances could be made. Now manufacturers have to redesign the machines and change what worked well for the most part of seventy years.

Does CU use the same criteria to clean an 8lb load they did in the 50s ? Because back then top loaders cleaned very well. So how much cleaner can modern fl washers get dirty laundry ? For decades top load washers cleaned well and front loaders middling even with low sudsing detergent ? What gives ? The mechanical action is still the same in a fler,.so what changed?

Do high temps and improved detergents account for their now "excellent" washing scores ? Now Speed Queen top load ratings are not as high as the best front loaders for cleaning. You mean in all these decades since the first Bendix automatic washer...no one figured that a puddle of water and and a low sudsing detergent was the answer ? Give me a break !

It certainly then must be the detergents and built in heaters because I don't see how lightly tossing clothes will get them clean as compared to the good spanking an agitator gives.
 
Changed Criteria

I've found it interesting, owning CR issues back to 1950 testing washing machines, that the criteria certainly aren't the same. Perhaps it's just the testing procedures themselves; I know that an enormous emphasis developed on cleaning wash-and-wear. I guess it's because of the national mania for that new type of clothing.

I wonder whether people back then were nastier than today? I know my own mother told me that when my sister and I were still in cloth diapers, the ability to wash in very hot water was considered important. Now, we seem to be dealing with these machines that deny that. Has doo-doo changed? I don't think so--and believe me, I've seen enough patients' underwear to know that it's not just babies with skid marks. With this obese society, probably people are getting more food on their fat stomachs when they eat, and chemical-laden foods are supposed to be tougher to remove than before.

But, as I've stated here before, my clothing really isn't that dirty. I am equally interested in reliability and durability, though my total laundry load is light. We are in a time, as has happened since the forties, of peripheral junk on our washers. In the past, it was piles of mechanical pushbuttons and dispensers of dubious reliability (think GE Dispensall). Nowadays? Silly electronic options, such as wireless and umpteen different cycle options, that actually contribute nothing whatsoever to the results, but are entertaining for a generation obsessed with 'smart' phones and similar toys.

I purchased the pdf on this site of the Bendix Economat operator's manual. On page 5, it states that the operator, at the end of the wash, remove the agitator and clean it and the tub. Can anyone imagine today's users (including me) having to disassemble the machine after each wash day?

Modern appliance manufacturers are putting out crap because people are willing to buy crap. Just that simple. We saw, in the decade from the late 70's to the late 80's, where American car buyers got fed up with lousy cars from our car makers, and flipped by the millions over to more reliable, better made Japanese cars. Unfortunately, the Koreans haven't shown the same clear advantage over our domestic makers.
 
 
<blockquote>AgiFlow2:  It certainly then must be the detergents and built in heaters because I don't see how lightly tossing clothes will get them clean as compared to the good spanking an agitator gives.</blockquote> Then perhaps you don't have much or any experience using a FL.  :-)

The full-fill (very large) load of whites in the WP DD that I referenced in Reply #73 above certainly came clean ... with four water changes -- soak/prewash, wash (chlorine bleach added last few mins), rinse, 2nd rinse -- more than 100 gallons of water.  It also generated an alarming amount of lint in the dryer, compared to what would result from the same load in the Calypso with considerably less water consumption.
 
Glenn i have used fl washers in a laundromat and those machines were no more impressive in getting clothes clean. Granted I would imagine the shorter cycle times probably bad to do with that, but it goes to show why the fl style needs longer to get clothes cleaner.

Those machines also have larger cylinders and have higher lift and drop with more than a puddle of water. You would think those could do a better job. Has not been my experience. Certain types of stains just don't budge or shift completely no matter what type of washing action.

When all is said and done I am one of those who simply prefer agitator washing. I don't get too dirty so any machine would do really.
 
Autism/Aspergers

Richard:

Not that it matters or that it should change your view of me one way or another (I believe only time and experience can do that, and I *am* willing to wait for you to have enough experience interacting with me).

I *do* have friends who have kids on the Autism/Asperger's Spectrum. I have friends (grown up) on the Autism/Asperger's Spectrum. Some of my friends are here in AW, some of them in this very thread.

I am glad to know that you are proud to be who you are and you should be. Some of the people who brought the most gain to Humanity, in whatever sector you want to mention (Science, Medicine, Philosophy etc) were/are people who share this with you. I am sure you know this, but some here don't.

Here's the pattern I've observed on the internet in general (and also here): someone on the spectrum shows up and starts interacting with the group. Everything is going great for a few cycles, and then there's a minor slip -- anyone can do that, it's not exclusive of people on the spectrum. Because we are a group of geeks, instead of just agreeing to disagree or moving on, we start fighting over details that the majority of the population could not care less about it.

Repeat this over time and a few dozen threads.

After a while, with the repeated cycles, we've had people give up on the groups not because they have trouble with the rational part of the discussion -- the trouble comes from the intensity of the social interaction and the failure of the people not on the spectrum to notice who they are interacting with and allowing for them to have a safe space to interact with the group.

Because, truth be told, it's not just people on the spectrum that have trouble with social interaction. It's fairly easy and common for a group to be unable to decide if someone is on the spectrum or a troll trying to cause trouble.

This is important: with just a tiny bit of care, we can have a wonderful experience with people on the spectrum and let them be themselves and we'll benefit from their presence, knowledge and experience etc.

You have been here for a while and I hope you have noticed me trying (and possibly failing) to be an advocate for people on the spectrum, because I am not content with the status quo on the internet and I think we in general do not give them a fair chance and I want that changed.

I am sorry that I came up as condescending and/or insulting. The insulting tone is there, yes, but it was not directed at people on the spectrum, I assure you, but at people like Patrick who think that being on the spectrum is an accusation and/or an insult and that people should "out" folks on the spectrum -- I say they will let us know about if they want to when they want to.

Still, I am saddened that I hurt anyone on the spectrum here, it's what I was trying to avoid in the first place.

My sincere apologies and I will try to do better in the future.

   -- Paulo.
 
The Bendix Economat was a very simple machine -- in fact, the agitator was just lowered in place, no screws or anything. One could lift it up, remove the filter underneath and rinse it, and just put it all back in a matter of seconds, the longest operation was rinsing out the filter. In fact, it was much easier than cleaning the filters on any number of machines, including Maytags.

The scoring for cleaning tests (particularly at CU) have changed over the years too. At a certain point (mid-90's? I can't remember) they mentioned in every test that current scores could not be compared to previous scores, some machines that cleaned "really well" previously started rating only fair or worse when compared to the Calypso and the new frontloaders.

There are reasons for that too: since the dawn of time, women were expected to pre-treat/remove all stains before the clothes were washed. Often there were long soaks and pre-washing involved too. The last step was a 10 minute agitation with detergent followed by rinse and spin. Some machines offered "heavy duty" or "heavy soil" setting which were 12 or 15 minutes. That is simply not enough and it shows poorly when compared to any machine that washes for 20 minutes or more -- those can remove most stains and soil by themselves, and machines that can automatically fill with water and detergent, do a pre-wash, then discard that water and refill with water and detergent and do a long wash will basically outwash most any other method. This is not news, Bendix did have some front-loaders way back then that did exactly that, but at that time places like CU were doing a "uniform" test with a "normal" cycle, instead of trying to find out maximum performance. So, it's not any surprise that some manufacturers just relabled what used to be "normal" to "short/express" cycle and some Heavy Soil/Whitest Whites to Normal. Poof, instant promotion to the top of the charts.

The reason for the "over 15 minute" wash length is that most enzymes (and detergents etc) take at the very least 15 minutes at 60C/140F to do the job. Longer in warm or cooler water. The problem one faces now, is that a front loader is essentially just squeezing the clothes (which releases some of the water) when they go up, then dumping them back in the water which gets reabsorbed again, and one can do that for a very long time without excessive wear and tear, but anything with an agitator, impeller, infuser or whatever you call it, might be too rough.

One of the promising features of this new SpeedQueen model is that maybe they found a way for the clothes not to wear out so much compared to other toploaders.

It's a rather counter-intuitive fact when dealing with front loading washers that the less water they use, the more effectively they wash the clothes, but the cost here is that they also wear out the items faster. That is one of the reasons that older frontloaders used more water (to protect the clothes) and did not perform/clean as well as the new ones. Cycle times, speed (rpm) and rhythm (how many revolutions, resting time and reversal) etc are very important too.

So, you see those machines in the laundromat half-full of water and tumbling madly in only one direction or stopping as little as possible and reversing, they look cool and exciting, but they might not be cleaning as well as they could. In fact, a machine that has a low water level but *two* wash speeds (one for tumbling and saturating the clothes, and one a little faster to push the clothes against the basket and squeeze some water out) will outwash the "traditional" frontloaders.

I would also like to point out that *most* people will have a terrible experience in laundromats, where the washers are often tuned for speed and to save hot water, so no matter what, toploader/frontloader, a 6-8 minute wash is not as good as what a domestic washer cycle can do for you.

Do not judge a machine just because what you experienced in a laundromat. In fact, my statement is stronger than that. My husband and I used to have a 6-cylinder car that we loved, so, naturally, we were happy to find out years ago that we were given a car of the same brand/model at the rental place when we were visiting friends in a different state. The car was like a totally different car, if we had rented it first, we'd never have bought it in the first place. First off, it had a 4-cyl engine, and they had not maintained the car as well as they should.

It is *very* very rare that machines in laundromats are maintained well, filled with hot water and wash for the same length of time you machine in your laundry room would do.

I tell European people "don't judge toploaders by your experience in a laundromat" and I tell Americans "don't judge frontloaders by your experience in a laundromat".

The other thing I want to mention: don't judge others who claimed some machine doesn't clean well enough for them. There's an awful lot that goes with local water chemistry, for example. Just because you have an office work and the *most* you need to pre-treat is a ring-around-the-collar and maybe 3 pairs of socks and your laundromat machines suffice for you, it doesn't mean other people are filthy. They have different situations/requirements that you or anyone else could *easily* find yourselves into -- kids, for example, get clothes much harder to clean than my clothes; there are people who walk in white socks which turn filthy; there are people who participate in community theater, for example, and inexpensive/cheap theater makeup is a real challenge; and that's not even touching in an awful lot of other things.

What I want to say is that if we want to be *serious* about this hobby, we can't let small stuff like "this washer cleans or rinses better than that" affect us. It's a fact of life that can by scientifically shown, it says nothing about you or me. Not everyone is after the best performing washer, some want the most fun to watch, some want something that doesn't break easily. Some are happy with whatever came with the home when they bought it.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.
 
 
Yes, as Paulo says, the coin-op environment can't be directly compared to a home machine.  The business model is to get the customers in and out quickly.  A machine running a long cycle can only run X times per day whereas a shorter cycle can run XX times ... more revenue.

Improved detergents target soils on the chemical level so less physical beating is needed ... longer "soaking" time to loosen soils and stains, less aggressive "spanking" to flush them out.
 
Why front loaders are best today

What has changed from the old front loaders of the 30's-90's? A great deal. One major thing is that they equally reverse rotation. This keeps things from balling up and tangling too. They have larger and wider drums, so a further drop, which is what does much of the cleaning. They use less water because front loaders do naturally use less water by design. New machines use less than ever, but usually enough to totally saturate the load washing with soapy water and then rinse water. They spin out incredibly fast and save a great deal of energy that would otherwise be used for drying wetter clothing. Front loaders were always excellent about getting rid of any and all sediment and lint. They also don't beat the clothes like top load machines do to clean them, thus they do not create any lint either. It is just a win/win situation from a standpoint of performance. The absolute ONLY drawback is that they take significantly longer to run their cycle. I consider that a very minor inconvenience, but then some people used to think the tangling into knots that Frigidaire washers did was a minor inconvenience too, others thought it a very great inconvenience.
 
Reply to Paulo,

I understand better now. I want to apologize for getting my feathers ruffled.

I think now that both you and Patrick meant the best but it was a little confusing. I appreciate your flattering comments about us autistic folk, but I'm certainly no Einstein or Thomas Jefferson!

"Minor slip." I have got to laugh because I usually end up messing something up within the first week of joining a forum.

To sum up, you meant the best and thus you didn't need to apologize. I want to thank you for your care about us. All I can say is you're lucky that there isn't an extremist "autistic self-advocate" around here, as they would take insult to the simple fact that you showed support at all and didn't let them do all the talking. I have both my support and qualms with those types, they make every neurotypical(NT) action even if it is to help autistic people out to be bad because they "cannot possibly represent us." They do have a point that autistic representation regarding autistic issues is severely lacking, though.
 
Thank you both Pat and Richard.

I think that one of the greatest things about the internet is that we can make more friends -- I have yet to meet anyone that thinks or feels that they have too many friends. With time and just a tiny little bit of effort, places like AW become like this really cool extended family, we get to know each other and care for and about each other.

Like any family, yes, there can be tough times, drama, party times, wonderful things can happen.

Most of the time, most of the people here have had wonderful experiences and I hope that the trend will continue for a long time.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.
 

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