this was my set from 1993 to 2004 when i switch to frontloads

[ronhic]

Well perceptions and reality....

...are different all over the world.

 

We went from a 1968 Simpson Fluid Drive (think Speed Queen) top loader to a 1989 ASEA (think ASKO) front loader...and cycle times went up....but so did what we could wash in it. The capacity differnce was technically only 1 lb, but the ASEA would happily take 4 queen sheets without an issue and the water sensors sorted out how much for the 'load'

 

...the same is the case for modern machines. Any half decent machine doesn't need any manual control for water level....and you, the consumer, should be able to rely on it to deliver results without interfering with it.

 

...as for pilling on shirts, well, I can only say that I've had minimal if any regardless of which machines I've owned at the time...

 

As for the 'weigh to save', I would hardly refer to it as 'technology' - they are a guide only being very dependant as to where on teh door you place the washing - too far front or back and you will get a different result....and I would bet a box of OMO MATIC that you could fill the machine up, set to MEDIUM level and a 15 minute wash time and get the same results as if you'd chosen the 'FULL' option for water....  

 

[3beltwesty]

Blame the whimy 120 USA volts on being environmentally conce

Europe's washers are designed around 230 volts; thus it is real easy to heat water quickly.

In the USA one could make a home washer for 220 to 240 volts; but most houses only have this in the laundry room if they have an electric dryer,

With half the voltage one gets only 1/4 the power heating via a coil.

A European 230 volt 50 Hz washer may or may not work right on USA's 60 Hz; it depends on the devices details.

BIG Commercial washers in the USA tend to run on 230 volts; few if any home washers do.

The USA PURPOSELY choose the lower 110 volts over eons ago to save energy. Once the AC and DC wars were over simple light bulb drived the designs. Filament lamps are more fragile and are not as efficient on 220 volts. There was no CFL bulbs in Edison's day. Since the primary loads were lighting; we were concerned with saving energy, burning less coal in the beginings of electrical power systems. 60Hz was chosen to reduce flicker; less eye fatigue while sewing or drafting in a sweatshop. In Motors; 60HZ motors need less iron; they weigh less, cost less. 50Hz is more lossy in transmission. It requires a lot more larger windings and magnetic core/iron in transformers.

****Thus blame that USA washers use "just 120 volts" and 60HZ today based on concerns over 120 years ago about waste with powering lamps and motors; the primary loads. Folks want to not waste coal, waste iron, waste money with running bulbs on 220 volts and motors on 50Hz. Motor laminations were not as good 120 years ago, motor lams have to be thicker with 50 Hz.

 

[jerrod6]

True about 120V vs 220, 230 or 240V.  The difference in time between a 105F and 140F wash on my 220+ volt washer is about 4 minutes so it can heat the water fast to almost 200F if I select that temp range.

 

Many top loaders today select the water amount automatically based on the load size...don't know what else they do based on load size, but do know that what I consider cool to warm is now considered hot.  In 1996 I had a top load KitchenAid  washer that provided cool water for the warm wash.  Back then when I wanted a warm wash I selected a hot wash, waited until the tub was almost full, then switched  the temp to warm....the only way I could get a really warm water wash.

 

I wonder if the top loaders you will get in the future will be like the top loader you had in the past?

 

 

 

 

[pierreandreply4]

hum i'don't know but base on what you posted my grand mother has a topload whirpool washer thats she bought in 2009 and just in fall last year she bought the matching dryer to replace her 40 year old vintage dryer and on her washer she has the option set to cool water for her wash and i remeber the last 2 washer she had and old vintage inglis liberator that was a push to start model and then around 1988 that she replace with a kenmore washer she always would use the warm wash water setting with the cold water rinse so i think that in order to have a real warm wash water we would have to try and find a good old fashion vintage machine?

 

[neptunebob]

3belt,

Did the fight between George and Thomas have anything to do with why we have 120 volts?  I know that is why we don't have DC current in buildings. 

 

[pierreandreply4]

glimpse of my grandmother 's washer today

here is a glimpse of her washer today sorry but not a full pic when i took this pic it was of her dryer

 

[mattl]

<blockquote>
 but the duet set i have is among the first that where made so there is no quick wash on the model i have

 

</blockquote>
I believe I have the same Duet washer you do, at least from the picture it looks the same, and I have a Quick wash option that runs 30 minutes.  Even the "Normal" cycle runs 40 minutes.  True, it's is a bit longer than my TL, there a sturdy load for Cottons runs 28 minutes.  But, as has often been stated, the drying time is much reduced with a FL due to the high speed spin, so for me I net out the same.

 

[tolivac]

60 Vs 50Hz-Most transformers made today can run from either.Examples are in two of the transmitters at the place where I work.Two of the transmitters were built in Europe-one in Germany,the other in Switzerland.the transformers-and some of the motors are slash marked to run from either frequency.the motors when run from 50hz-will run slower.say 3450 RPM motor(60Hz)runs at 2850rpm at 50Hz.
inreal reality-there is less loss if you can run the motor at a higher voltage-many power tool makers recommend this-most 1.5Hp table saws have motors that can run on either 120V or 220V.The cable gauge can be smaller on the 220V since the motor is drawing half the current.1.5Hp table saw-14A 120V,6A 220V.
for lights-incandscent esp-flicker is not going to be noticable on either frequency.the filament doesn't completely cool off enough between cycles-for arc type lights than the flicker between 50Hz,60Hz can be noticed.Ie early Cooper-Hewitt lamps. In Edisons day arc lights were around.typically carbon arcs-used in early streetlighting.

 

[haxisfan]

@ househelper

Hi there... with a nickname like yours I guess you need all the help you can get... well... 3 loads of laundry in 1 go... ouch… I believe it'd be a stressful combination regardless of what type washer you're using... you still have to accomplish drying somehow... unless you own 2 or 3 dryers… let alone folding and putting away… that’s scary! When I have lots of laundry to get out of the way, I let it pile up and do only 1 load each day no stop as opposed to the typical 4-5 loads per week (so it’d work out 7 a week).

I always believed that US temperature system was not about not having temperature choice but rather the implementation of names like (cold, cool, warm, hand hot, hot, very hot, boiling) as opposed to our degree Celsius system. You mentioned the sanitary cycle in the LG being carried out at a temperature of 74C (165F), still, it seems more than reasonable for fulfilling its purpose. Over here these kinds of cycles have always been present and always had a similar cycle length around the 2 hour mark... which would even be longer if used in conjunction with a pre-wash cycle. However that didn't mean that the washer would keep heating the water throughout the whole cycle, but only in certain stages at pre-programmed intervals, reaching the top temperature only during the last stage of the main wash. Having said that, in most cases, such cycles are not necessary and cleanliness can be achieved with much lower temperatures (or cold with specific products).

Pricing for these 2 most contended types of washers (FL vs TL) is rather different over here but this phenomenon is often dictated by the market according to its own trend rather than reflecting the quality of the materials or processed involved in the production: I'm sure the US would see much cheaper FLs in the near future if Americans kept buying these machines over TL models.

I admit that I love the idea of having a flexibility in temperature choice, but that is recently been taken down a notch or two... in fact most current but top of the range models (not just Hoover) no longer offer middling temperatures like 50, 70 or 80 degrees... well, I guess one just gets used to it as long as there are other available options that let you tweak the wash cycle in terms of duration. In my opinion it’s most appropriate for the user to be able to choose the cycle lengths in a given washer and learn the potential shortcomings of short wash cycles by their own trial n' error… but most importantly the user is able to compare its own experiences within the same appliance rather than relying on someone else terms of comparison or opinion of the type ‘my short wash gave me brilliant results’ and ‘my long wash gave me poor results’.

Oh dear… too much rambling perhaps… see ya ;-)

 

[3beltwesty]

US temperature system

Haxisfan

RE :

"I always believed that US temperature system was not about not having temperature choice but rather the implementation of names like (cold, cool, warm, hand hot, hot, very hot, boiling) as opposed to our degree Celsius system. "

Washers in the USA did not historically have any heaters until the last decade or so.

Our hot water has been from our homes hot water heater, thus washers had no temperature markings in degrees, since it would be impossible.

With a corded via a plug type 120 volt device; about 1500 watts is about what one can get legally with a non permanent plugged to socket connection. With a typical usa house; one has 15 amp 120 volt sockets. With a plug in device one cannot legally use the fully 15 amps; the electrical code allows about 80 percent; ie about 12 amps. 12 amps at 120 volts is about 1440 watts. That is why a space heater is typically 1500 watts. The derating allows for the plug to socket degradation, contact resistance. A wired device without a socket/ plug can use the full 15 or 20 amps.

Thus with the say 1500 watts max one has to subtract maybe 100 for the washers motors and solenoids and one can only have about 1300 to 1400 watts for a washer's heater. This is really not enough heat to heat water on the fly. Thus for legal reasons one cannot label washers here with degrees F or C with an internal heater; unless one wanted to allow 4 times the time.

 

[3beltwesty]

RE "60 Vs 50Hz-Most transformers made today can run from either."

Most distribution transformers on the street, most ac clocks, most AC motors in the USA are made for 60 Hz only. If one runs them on 50 Hz they burn up. Legally if you do this your fire insurance is voided.

Transformers and induction motors designed for 60 Hertz and used on 50 are like having them run at 20 percent more voltage; from a core saturation standpoint. It may or may not work, it depends on the design margin. Many consumer products are designed with tight price goals, they do NOT often use 20 percent more iron in their AC motors so a USA electric dryer can work in Europe on 50 Hz. One basically is driving the cost up by several dollars per unit; which turns into many millions wehn in production. They fire folks for such wastefull designs.

With dump things like computers, chargers etc often then DO design for 50 and 60 hertz.

Since your transmitters were made in Europe; of course they are 50 Hz.

With an early 1980's Sony VCR here made for 120 volts 60 Hz; its transformer when run on 50 Hz 120 volts via a motor/gen would get so hot that the transformer would fail. To run it on 50 Hz we had to drop the voltage by 5/6 or about 100 volts. This unit at my apartment in Californa on 126 volts 60 Hz would char its ciruit board. The transformer barely worked on 60 Hz.

 

[tolivac]

For the transmitters they were designed so they could run on either 50Hz or 60Hz.The manufactueres had in mind of wordwide use for these items-shortwave transmitters sold to other countries-same theing with transmitters built in the US-Continental Electronics-their transmitters are built in the US-but also sold to overseas markets were they would have to work from 50Hz.Their transmformers and motors are slashed marked-the items would have to be derated slightly when used on 50hz.One of our transmitters had frequent HV rect transformer failures-not becuase of frequency issues-but the pakaging of the transformer in a more compact tank-1.2MVA was packed in a case about 3/4 the size it would normally be in-the US made replacement transformer is larger-so much so we had to have a concrete pad built outside the building and the transmformer installed outside.The orig transformer was inside the transmitters transformer vault-that is inside the building.the vault now only containes a transformer that steps down 4160V to 400/220V.This transmformer operates all of the LV parts in the transmitter.
also come to think of it had to adapt many reel tape recorders at my agency to operate overseas-50Hz-220V current.Had to retap the transformer in the tape machine so it could run on the overseas power.In the shop we have a power supply that can convert the 60Hz US power to 50Hz so I could test the recorder.It was fine-its transformer did not overheat-Otari rates the transformer in the machine for continious use for 50Hz or 60Hz.the reel motors in the machine run from the transformer-same with the capstan motor-its speed is derived from an electronic circuit in the machine-not the powerline.
Yes,its true on dist transmformers-these are designed for the frequency the power company is going to use them on.Most dist transformer makers make ones that are for 50Hz and 60Hz.You have to specify when you order them.and the voltages Primary and sec will be diffrent for overseas power companies-US transformer makers do make transformers for other power companies besides ours.
If the appliance or device has a switching supply instead of a conventional transformer it can run from 50 or 60Hz.Many new amplifiers made for cinemas,commercial uses,sound reinforcement have switching supplies so you can run them on 50 or 60Hz and 120 or 220V.Crown,QSC,Ashley build amps with switching power supplies-and it makes the amp more efficient,lighter in weight and takes up less rack space.The switching supplies are being used in some consumer type amps too-lift some amps and recivers at the Hi-Fi dept at Best Buy and all-they are getting lighter-and no big power transformer inside the unit.One amp company -for "hi end" Hi-fi has a TUBED amp that uses switching supplies in it instead of conventional power transformers-and vacuum tubes for the amp stages.

 

[haxisfan]

Cool... warm... hot...

3belt, thanks for the info. In my comment above I was thinking more on the lines of post heater American appliances in the last decade or so... such as your own LG front loader. Perhaps I was exaggerating a bit but I've seen at least 4 settings (cold, cool, warm, hot) in older models where as you suggested the centralized hot water was mixed with cold water in such a way to result in said temperature variations, with a marginal degree of accuracy of course... but what about those washing machines with an integrated heater? They still have names instead of degrees.

I remember seeing a recent 'Splendide' American front loader which has the exact same design as our European Indesit, however the various iconic elements, names of cycles, colours and temperature id on the control panel is completely different... the latter relying on names rather than on a degree scale. One last curiosity... is 120 volts fatal for humans?

 

[3beltwesty]

Heated WATER time with a USA machine versus 220V machine

Haxisfan;

*IF* a washer hawked/sold here with an electric heater had "degree F" or " Degree C" I feel that a few lawyer types or whiners would ruin the party.

Here I think that your marking system of actual degrees C is super!

To not have a lawsuit a washer maker would have to test so super cold ground water in February in Northern Minnesota is really heated to the marked front panel setting in degrees F, or a lawyer would sue for fraud etc.

THUS since suing is a big industry here in the USA, product makers purposely use vague weasel words on products. There are folks who all they do is hunt for infractions and subtle things to start a lawsuit.

Many of us here like me could actually hook up a 220 volt washer with no issues, we already have a plug for the electric dryer. If I wanted a a separate circuit running a 230 volt circuit is easy with my house.

****I am not sure HOW MUCH water is really heated up on a non usa 220 volt washers internal heater, or even our new 120v washers units here.

My old 1976 machine that uses an external water heater uses 0 to 10 gallons of hot water, depending on whether warm or hot is used AND the water level setting.

As a rough crude guess I would guess by seat of the pants that a modern machine uses 1/3; thus say 3 gallons of hot water? ie about 10 to 11 Liters?

3 gallons weights 25 Lbs

If this is heated from 20 C/ 68F to 70 C / 158F this is a 50C / 90 F delta temp

The energy to heat the water is thus 25 Lbs times 90 F = 2250 BTU

With 1400 watts of heater power; this is 1400 * 3.414= 4780 BTUH

The TIME thus to heat the water is thus 2250 BTH /4770 BTUH = 0.47 Hours.

This is with no losses of heating up the fittings, water container, element etc.

*****Thus a USA heater on a 120 VOLT washer at "full poop" would take 1/2 hour to heat 3 gallons of water to 158 F or 50 C

*IF* the heated water was only 1.5 gallons (5.7 LITRES ) the time would be 1/4 HOUR

WHAT is the wattage of your non USA washers heaters?

 

[ronhic]

...an awful picture, but my PC crashed recently, so this is from the web...

 

Anyway, it is rated at 230-250V, 2050w @ 50Hz....

 

A 'hot' 60c quick cottons is 75minutes

 

A 'warm' 40c quick cottons cycle is 68minutes...though I can get a 40c quick synthetics cycle to about 50 minutes.

 

A 'tepid' 30c quick cottons cycle is 61minutes

 

A 'cold' quick cottons is 55minutes 

 

I tend to wash everything on the hot or warm cycles except gym gear which gets synthetics 30c quick at 45minutes and wool....

 

There is a 30c, 30minute refresh cycle too....which I very rarely use as it spins at 700rpm...though I tend to engage 'rinse hold' which reduces the time to 25min and then flick around to the separate 'spin' at 1200rpm for 10minutes...

 

All 'quick' cycles have 2 deep rinses - to where the door glass goes vertical (approx 1/5 - 1/4 up the glass) and interim spins with a final at either 1200rpm or 900rpm...and whilst some would say you should reduce the load for a quick wash, I fill this to the top if nothing is heavily soiled and do the same but add a pre-wash if there is heavy (think ground in garden dirt) soiling. 

 

Normal cycles have 3 rinses, though at a lower water level....

 

 

[3beltwesty]

Ronhic, thanks for the specs!

WOW; only 2050 on your 220 volt washer.

I was thinking more like 2500 to 3000 watts!

Is the longer 75 min time for the highest 60C just due to time required to heat the water?

The specs of higher temps taking longer I assume are due to the time to heat the water, and maybe too the time one wants to wash too.

 

[ronhic]

Just water heating...

...is the difference...

 

...and I also have a 95c option too....which is pretty much boiling.

 

Australian power points deliver a nominal 230V @ a maximum of 10amps...though appliances should have a range from 230-250V and there are 15amp points too which have a larger 'earth' pin (which is the one on the bottom).

 

Appliances rated at 230-250V with 10amp plugs are not allowed to draw more than 2400watts...so ALL domestic, movable appliances are traditionally rated from 230-250V 50Hz 10amp. The exceptions are normally American style tumble dryers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS_3112

 

[haxisfan]

Wattages...

The Hoover you've seen in the vids has a 2150w heater, 230v at 50hz... I guess most European washers have a similar wattage heaters in them. My rapid boil kettle has got a 3000w heater... but the ordinary non rapid are rated around 2000w or less.

As for time... starting from 20C (68F) the heater requires 5 to 8 minutes (depending on the ambience temperature and the size of the load) to heat the water by 10 degrees... there are some cycles where their duration is entirely dependant on the temperature when used with a specific option called 'time saver' (this function cuts off the wash time so the washer ends the main wash 1 minute or so after the temperature has been reached) e.g. if I use a 40C cycle on a programme where the the 'time saver' function can be enabled the main wash is likely to last 25 minutes or so... the first 10' without heat + 7' (up to 30C) + 7' (up to 40C) + 1' (few final tumbles before drain) = 25'. To finish the cycle the machine needs another half an hour or so for rinsing (20' on easy care cycle) and approx 10 minutes (3' on easy care) for the final spin... all in all a similar cycle would need just over an 1 to complete (longer if there are delays due to unbalanced loads, the equivalent easy care cycle would be done in approx 45').

I don't think longer cycles in general are longer because washers need longer time to heat the water... it's just a specific profile associated with a particular wash cycle. As in my example above, you could see that the first 10' or so of the cycle don't even engage the heater, however, there are other fix duration cycles in which the heater will be engaged almost straight away (say 2-3 minutes after pressing the start button). You'll find a similar scenario on all the other machines across other manufacturers... the duration of a their programmes is specific to that particular cycle profile.

 

[haxisfan]

Correction...

a time saver easy care cycle at 40 degrees would last approx 50 minutes as opposed to 45' I said above (I was thinking about my 30C time saver easy care cycles which I often use and last anything from 43 to 46').

 

[3beltwesty]

Most all modern new US washers have no F or C degree marking

Hexisfan:

RE comment in Reply #32 "but what about those washing machines with an integrated heater? They still have names instead of degrees. "

Last November here with all the USA 50 to 100 new washers I looked at in about say 7 local stores, none are labeled in actual temperatures of F or C.

Thus I wager few if any USA modern washers have actual labeled temperatures in degrees F or C.

I really have never seen a washer that has actual temperatures in washers sold here for homeowners.

I have only seen them via the web; when say somebody in Europe, NZ, Oz, Brazil mentions they used their washer at 40C and I google their washer to see the front panel.

I really only heard /read of these actual front Temperature washer panel settings via non Americans on this website.

Thus when a non USA user mentions on this site they used a 40,50 0r 60 C settings, we here in the USA have no settings marked in C or F.

If I look at my new LG WM2501HVA, its panel has no F or C degree settings, only cold, warm, hot and extra hot and combinations of both for wash and rinse.

I do know the "extra hot" setting turns on the internal heater.

There is a statement on page 23 of the manual that says warm is regulated at 86F /30 C. it also says "your washer features a heating element to boost the hot water temperature of Extra Hot settings".

Then on page 15 it says under "fabric care labels" that hot is 50c 120 f warm 40 c 105 f cold 30 c 85 F

Thus an actual user like me has little info on ones new washer even if one digs.

Here is the PDF user manual for my washer:

http://www.lg.com/us/products/documents/LG_Spec_WM2501H.pdf