Toilet Troubles

[rp2813]

Do we have any plumbing experts on the board? I don't get what is happening with one of the toilets in the house here. Ever since the estate sale team was in here preparing things, a toilet has developed a mind of its own about clearing its bowl. Sometimes it's fine, other times it just swirls around and stops short of flushing out the bowl, and displays varying rates of flushing action in between those two extremes, most of the time acting reluctant and sluggish.

Plunging doesn't help. If anything it makes things worse. It behaves this way regardless of what it might be asked to flush away, including test flushes that aren't carrying any waste at all. Time of day or use of nearby shower, sink, or laundry tub don't seem to have any influence on this behavior. Water into the tank is running fine and the fill valve and flapper are fairly recent.

My only guess is that it's a coincidence re: the estate sale personnel having any responsibility for the problem, and that it might be an issue with the vent pipe. But it's the intermittent nature of the problem that prevents me from coming up with a solid theory for what might be wrong.

Am I going to have to pull the toilet off? It's just your "(American) Standard" toilet of 1947 vintage that has never had a problem in all of its years of service.

Ideas anyone?

Thanks,

Ralph

 

[jeffg]

First step is to snake the drain. The problem and visit from your sales team were probably not conincidental.

 

[seeitrun2006]

Toliet problem

Are you on a septic tank? Are the sinks, DW, Washing machine and bathtub draining correctly. If you are on a septic tank it is possible 1) The septic tank is full and needs to be pumped out or 2) your field lines are clogged coming out of the septic causing water to back up in the septic tank.

My wife and I lived in my grandparents 70 year old farm house for 11 years. Everytime we took a shower the water would bubble back into the toliet. We had the tank pumped out and replaced the 70 year field lines in the yard. Of course before we got it fixed no waste would go down either. I noticed you are in SF CA so I don't know if you have septic tanks in your area. Here in North GA they are everywhere.

Hope this helps!
David

 

[rp2813]

Nope, city sewer here and the other two toilets and all other drains in the house are fine.

 

[danemodsandy]

Two Common Uncommon Issues:

Two things that are rarely looked at can cause problems. One, as you've noted, is the vent pipe, so I assume you're on that one.

The other is a waterlogged float. I recently worked on one of my toilets for several days, adjusting this, testing that, to no avail. It finally occurred to me to inspect the float carefully; I had not yet done so because it was a plastic float (they don't give much trouble) and appeared new. Shezam! It had water in it- not much, but enough to cause trouble. Replacing it cured the problem and restored a "possessed" toilet to use.

Aside from that, check the flush valve and the drain line from that toilet to the main drain line- just because the other toilets are fine doesn't mean there isn't a blockage close to your problem unit.

 

[volvoguy87]

Vent stack?

See if there is a birds nest or something getting sucked down the vent stack.

Best of luck,
Dave

 

[panthera]

Could be

The vent stack has already taken your notice, but some other problems you might be able to eliminate:
-I am assuming there is no limit to how much water you can otherwise run without anything backing up. If that is the case, try not to use any water at all overnight. If the toilet backs up after one or two flushes in the morning, then it is definitely a blockage specific to area from directly below the toilet to where it joins up with the sewer line.
-Does the problem occur if you throw a several gallon bucket of water into the bowl all at once?
-In 1947, there were still various mechanisms used to clear the bowl in the US. Was the plumbing in the tank changed or shifted in such a way as it would bother this specific design?
-If you do have to pull the toilet, be prepared for all the metal connections to break off at the worst possible place. Your best bet is to have all the components you will need on hand, just as if you were installing a new toilet - flange, neoprene seat (far better than the wax jobs), brass screws, caps, etc.
-I would be very cautious about snaking the bowl. It is old and could shatter. Which is another possibility, has a part of the 'innards' broken off and is blocking things?

 

[rp2813]

Sandy, although the valve assembly is recent, I will check to see if the float has water in it. I do think the blockage is localized. The laundry tub drains very well with a full sized GE dumping into it, and it's only a few feet away.

Keven, I've tried the overnight thing with varying results from best to absolute worst (this doesn't take much imagination on anyone's part). I'll try some of the tests you've suggested. The toilet is all original and has never been messed with.

The house just passed a complete inspection process in June so unless something happened to the innards after that, the toilet should have been in good shape.

Since this house has no elongated toilets :-( which I think the average man can relate to as a less than optimum situation and if the toilet needs to be replaced, there is definitely a silver lining involved.

Ralph

 

[neptunebob]

It's also possible that a lid or a toy could have gone down the toilet and is now stuck in the trap. If so, the best way to get it out - though it may not be possible - is to remove the toilet and see if anything is up there. It's also possible that the tank does not fill up all the way and you need a new fill valve. I would get all the parts you need if you decide to unbolt the toilet.

 

[nurdlinger]

Unbolting the thing should be the *Last Resort*

My brother and I were going to fix a seeping leak in my Dad's toilet once, and I was virtually a sobbing heap on the floor before it was over. As mentioned, old bolts snap off. Bolts whose heads pass through slots in the flange will break off the sides of the slots if they are corroded enough.

I don't want to spend your money for you, but let the plumber have the hassles if at all possible.

 

[spankomatic]

I had this same problem in a rental unit in Santa Cruz. The toilet happened to be the last lowest point before the connection to the city sewer system. Turns out the problem was the city sewer system. I started checking with my neighbors and they too were having problems.... Turned out to be a major repair for the city. They had to dig up the entire street...

None of the other drains were effected in the house. Just the one toilet that was at the lowest point of the system.

Can you trace where your sewer pipe runs out to the street? Any soft spots in the front lawn? Usually there is a clean out trap some where between the house and the street sewer connection. Take the lid off,drain the washing machine and see what happens....

Call the city if you suspect the problem is theres.

Jim

 

[whirlaway]

Slow toilet

One time I had the same trouble,it never occured to me not to flush dental floss.Well that was the problem,over time it gets caught at the wax ring connection.I have never done that again,and everything is O.K.now,Bobby

 

[rp2813]

Thanks for the suggestions and shared experiences. The toilet is not at the lowest point on the sewer line. The one that is further down the line operates fine.

I had to pull both toilets off at our previous house and as with any plumbing job, I anticipated problems. Both times I had none, but this 1947 model has an extra set of bolts that I'm betting screw into the subfloor. Those are the ones I'm concerned about.

I think I'll next check the vent and then the only thing left will be to pull the toilet and do the mirror thing with the trap.

 

[polkanut]

Good luck Ralph,

We have a 1935 "American Standard" Modernus toilet in our home. We were living here about 3yrs. when the water valve developed a slow leak, causing the tank to fill up and drain into the overflow pipe. It took me roughly 8hrs. to take out the old guts and install new ones. I won't part with my water guzzler though, she gets rid of whatever you throw in her without even a whimper. I did put 1 1/2 bricks in the tank to cut down on some of the water usage though.

 

[brettsomers]

sometimes the water passages in the bowl can be compromised due to mineral deposits. make sure the bowl-cleaning holes (under the rim) and the main washdown jet are working at full capacity. sometimes pouring an anti-mineral cleanser down thru the reservoir's outlet full strength, and letting it soak, can help.

 

[toggleswitch2]

How's your water level in the tank?

Have you checked the stopper's action (bottom of tank?)
If the chain (connecting it to the operating lever and handle)was shortened or lengthened, the flapper/stopper at the bottom of the tank may not be sequencing properly and may be admitting too much or too little water into the bowl for a good flush.

[If this were the 70's I'd say the stash of hash in a plastic bag hidden in the tank fell into the hole at the bottom of the tank and is clogging things up! But every narc on the planet knows that trick by now!] *LOL*

 

[rp2813]

Brett, thanks for that anti-mineral treatment. Sure beats a mirror and coathanger.

Tim, I lived in a 1937 house with original American Standard fixtures throughout. The huge central bath had an Italian theme and fixtures were all beige. The toilet looked like the largest one you could buy, but it had a bad valve. The owner had other rentals and sent her handyman over and I was very pleased when I saw that he installed the exact modern day American Standard replacement that looked just like the original, almost like it was NOS. He could have easily gone with the cheap "flowmaster" plastic ones.

I agree about the water hogs. I refused to replace one of those at our previous house and defeated the water saving mechanism in the one toilet we did replace in order to achieve enough of a flush to consistently clear things out. They have got to do better with water saving designs. Until then, I'll keep my hogs and conserve everywhere else. Great reason to buy that FL pair we've been talking about.

 

[mattl]

To me it sounds like there is not enough water to properly flush the toilet. When It's acting up try adding some water to the bowl from a bucket and see if it completes the flush.

One other thought would be is there some sort of blockage in the flushvalve area. It almost sounds like there might not be enough flow to cause the bowl to fill and overflow quickly. If the water just comes in at a less than optimum rate the bowl will fill to the point it needs for water to pass the trap and it wont flush.

 

[tbolt25]

Ernest Goes to Camp geyser toilet

Has anyone ever seen a toilet flush up like a geyser like the one in Ernest Goes to Camp?